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tamaka -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/25/2016 7:59:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Religion gives people the base need of Maslow's hierarchy... eternal safety ... as long as...

If religion does that for people, then those people are living in self-deception. They deceive themselves if they believe or 'rely' upon some imaginary god and that that god authored some divine words in a book (as written or told to other humans) as an orthodoxy, giving instructions in how to live their lives, then also thereby, grants them a paradise in an afterlife.

Thus they also deceive themselves into believing that would also have then achieved or could achieve success in obtaining the personal needs theorized in Maslow's hierarchy.


Yes perhaps you are right. There is some type of euphoric feeling people seem to get... a kind of "high" when your base need for eternal safety is met and some type of 'awe/reverence/worshipful' feeling seems to be more easily attained when the 'One' who could send you to eternal hell but instead 'Allows' you to be 'saved'. Those of us in this lifestyle should be able to understand the psychological, physical and dare i say spiritual nuiances of that type of dynamic better than most folks.




Real0ne -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/25/2016 8:24:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Why the rise of religious extremism? A seemingly simple question

Religion. Does anyone know the death totals, roughly, from the last
One century
Nineteen centuries before that
Begging of time minus the last twenty Centuries

And how does that compare to political/ideological extremism, and death totals war wise, and is religious extremism any worse now, than it has been since the beginning of recorded time


And, could the argument not be made that political - ideological extremism is the bigger devil by a good billion or so.

Now, if I said my answer is to ban all religion am I not equally guilty of bestowing my ideology, and thusly part of the problem not the solution.





Thats a bit too general since everyone has a religion, including atheists, so without specifying what the religion is that you are talking about it fails to make an arguable premise.

If you are saying there is little difference between religion and certain secular ideologies, yeh ok.

But by and large, the atheist religion has the highest death toll unless we want to really stretch our imaginations.







Real0ne -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/25/2016 8:25:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Yes perhaps you are right. There is some type of euphoric feeling people seem to get... a kind of "high" when your base need for eternal safety is met and some type of 'awe/reverence/worshipful' feeling seems to be more easily attained when the 'One' who could send you to eternal hell but instead 'Allows' you to be 'saved'. Those of us in this lifestyle should be able to understand the psychological, physical and dare i say spiritual nuiances of that type of dynamic better than most folks.



patriot act comes to mind LOL




MrRodgers -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/25/2016 8:26:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Why the rise of religious extremism? A seemingly simple question

Religion. Does anyone know the death totals, roughly, from the last
One century
Nineteen centuries before that
Begging of time minus the last twenty Centuries

And how does that compare to political/ideological extremism, and death totals war wise, and is religious extremism any worse now, than it has been since the beginning of recorded time


And, could the argument not be made that political - ideological extremism is the bigger devil by a good billion or so.

Now, if I said my answer is to ban all religion am I not equally guilty of bestowing my ideology, and thusly part of the problem not the solution.





Thats a bit too general since everyone has a religion, including atheists, so without specifying what the religion is that you are talking about it fails to make an arguable premise.

If you are saying there is little difference between religion and certain secular ideologies, yeh ok.

But by and large, the atheist religion has the highest death toll unless we want to really stretch our imaginations.





Wrong on all counts...peroid.




Real0ne -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/25/2016 8:43:56 PM)

go for it.





Atheism and Mass Murder
Joseph Stalin's atheistic regime killed tens of millions of people.

Concerning atheism and mass murder, Christian apologist Gregory Koukl wrote that "the assertion is that religion has caused most of the killing and bloodshed in the world. There are people who make accusations and assertions that are empirically false. This is one of them."[1] Koukl details the number of people killed in various events involving theism and compares them to the much higher tens of millions of people killed under atheistic communist regimes, in which militant atheism served as the official doctrine of the state.[1] See also: Atheism and communism

Communist regimes killed 60 million in the 20th century through genocide, according to Le Monde, more than 100 million people[2] according to The Black Book of Communism (Courtois, Stéphane, et al., 1997).[3] and according to Cleon Skousen[4] in his best-selling book The Naked Communist.[5]

It is estimated that in the past 100 years, governments under the banner of atheistic communism have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 and 259,432,000 human lives.[6] Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first coined the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987.[7]

The Reign of Terror of the French Revolution established a state which was anti-Roman Catholicism/Christian in nature [8] (anti-clerical deism and anti-religious atheism and played a significant role in the French Revolution[9][10]), with the official ideology being the Cult of Reason; during this time thousands of believers were suppressed and executed by the guillotine.[11] Although Communism is one of the most well-known cases of atheism's ties to mass murder, the French Revolution and subsequent Reign of Terror, inspired by the works of Diderot, Voltaire, Sade, and Rousseau, managed to commit similar persecutions and exterminations of religious people and promote secularism and militant atheism. Official numbers indicate that 300,000 Frenchmen died during Robespierre's Reign of Terror, 297,000 of which were of middle-class or low-class.[12] Of the amount murdered via the guillotine, only 8% had been of the aristocratic class, with over 30% being from the peasant class.[13]



Atheists attempting to deny/minimize the roles of atheism/atheists in atheist atrocities

See also: Atheism and historical revisionism and Atheism and the no true Scotsman fallacy

Atheist apologists commonly try to minimize or deny the role of atheism/atheists as far as atheist atrocites.[17][18][19] It is as if no true atheist could be involved for mass murder.[19]

Atheism was an integral tenet of Maxist-Lennism/Maoist/Stalinism communism (see: Atheism and communism).

Richard Dawkins has attempted to engage in historical revisionism concerning atheist atrocities and Dawkins was shown to be in gross error (see also: Atheism and communism and Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union).

For more information, please see: Atheism and the no true Scotsman fallacy
Atheist mass murders in history and the historical illiteracy of many atheists

As far the history of atheism in the 20th century, many atheists are not aware of the murderous atheist regimes which inhabited this historical period (see: Atheists and historical illiteracy). Part of the reason why many atheists are unaware of widespread atheist atrocities during this period is due to atheistic indoctrination in public/secular schools.
Explanatory links between atheism and mass murders

Theodore Beale wrote about the secular left and mass murder:
“ ...it does, however, cast serious doubt on the common atheist assertion that a godless society will be a peaceful one. The significant question has never been if atheism causes political leaders to kill in large quantities, it is why political leaders who happen to be atheist have been inordinately inclined to kill in large quantities.

As I wrote in TIA, the answer is probably to be found in the fact that atheists who have committed great historical crimes are almost exclusively left-wing atheists with utopian visions of restructuring human society; Ayn Rand atheists aren't exactly known for attempting to violently restructure societal order. This is why atheists like Bertrand Russell, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and especially Michel Onfray are far more dangerous than those more akin to Daniel Dennett and even Richard Dawkins.[20]


http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_Mass_Murder






DaddySatyr -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/25/2016 9:04:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Atheism is simply...disblief. And I was one of those 60-70's protesters and never heard, felt or discussed atheism that much at all.



Yes ... disbelief. If you didn't spend so much time (at least here) trying to persuade others not to believe, also, I would probably agree with you, Monsignor.



Michael




Real0ne -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/25/2016 9:14:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Atheism is simply...disblief. And I was one of those 60-70's protesters and never heard, felt or discussed atheism that much at all.



Yes ... disbelief. If you didn't spend so much time (at least here) trying to persuade others not to believe, also, I would probably agree with you, Monsignor.



Michael




I cant begin to tell you how I love word games.

want me to lay out the formal logic that there is no material difference between 'disbelieve' and 'believe' not.

Using disbelieve could work if it referred to agnostic, but it would have to be disbelief 'both' for and against.

Atheists erroneously use 'disbelief' to take a contrary position in which case it is now 'belief' no deity exists. either side is a belief. ie believe yes/believe no



Using it the way most atheists use it is a ridiculous premise, and a logical fallacy known as a distinction without a difference.



As usual the propagandists are hard at work causing confusion.
If you search in goog you get this title:


Ethics Without Religion | American Atheists

Of course when you get to the actual article:

Ethics Without Gods

Ethics is the study of morals regardless if they come from a theist or non-theist belief religion regardless of the flavor of religion, and religion in its broad sense something strongly believed in and practiced.

Its pure deception to cause confusion, so people automatically unwittingly tie all that together when they are in fact all different and have completely different meanings.

Pretty lame to build a cause based upon the incorrect usage of words, but what the hell it worked with exterminate and holocaust. LOL




Atheism Is Religion
Atheists Down Under Are Worried!
by Troy Lacey and Ken Ham on August 9, 2016
Share:

Do atheists have beliefs? Of course they do!

Atheists believe that matter arose by natural processes. Can they prove this? Not at all!

Atheists believe the universe, all life, the laws of nature, and laws of logic arose by natural processes. Can they prove this? Of course not, but they believe it to be so.

Atheists believe they cease to exist after they die. Can they prove this? No, but they believe this is what happens.

Atheists believe no God exists. Can they prove this? Not at all—it’s their belief.

Even though he has not labeled himself as such, Bill Nye, for all intents and purposes, is a practicing atheist. Look at this short video clip as I was speaking to him recently at the Ark Encounter where he admitted to believing life arose by natural processes—he has a belief, a religion. Atheists have a “system of belief held to with ardor and faith.” Atheists are very religious people.






the whole argument, from my POV is laughable.





Lordandmaster -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/25/2016 9:24:02 PM)

Belief is not the same thing as religion. Since that's such a fundamental conceptual mistake, I have to assume that it's not really a mistake at all; you're just disingenuously pretending that anyone who believes anything must belong to some sort of religion, whether he or she recognizes it or not.

And THAT, my friend, is a word game.




Real0ne -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/25/2016 9:33:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Belief is not the same thing as religion. Since that's such a fundamental conceptual mistake, I have to assume that it's not really a mistake at all; you're just disingenuously pretending that anyone who believes anything must belong to some sort of religion, whether he or she recognizes it or not.

And THAT, my friend, is a word game.


never said, implied, insinuated, dreamed, stated, imagined, or thought it was/is.

no actually its your mistake for drawing false ASSumptions without first comprehending the scope in which I am talking about.

That is known as a strawman argument, which people do when they want to create a dispute they can win.

This has been discussed before and you obviously were not here, or you would not say shit that misrepresents my position much less accuse me of being disingenuous.

I never said or referrred any such thing.






Real0ne -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/26/2016 6:48:31 AM)

That said I'd agree with you if your point is that belief standing alone, by itself, is a religion, its not. Any more than a flour is a cake. Belief however like flour is the main ingredient for religion, and religion can not exist without it.




Awareness -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/26/2016 7:07:46 AM)

Death due to religious extremism pales in comparison to deaths due to a desire for political power.

Consider the Cultural Revolution and the Maoist and Stalinist purges. Millions dead with no connection to religion. The Holocaust - millions dead with no connection to religion.

People like to pretend religion is somehow responsible to avoid looking at their own heart of darkness. We murder each other because man is a species built on survival - and to survive we've become a species of unrepentant killers.




WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/26/2016 7:08:04 AM)

I can make a pancake with califlower ...

quote:

Any more than a flour is a cake. Belief however like flour is the main ingredient for religion, and religion can not exist without it.


I just wanted to join in on the word games. That's all.





WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/26/2016 7:21:32 AM)

I recall a verse about not being a stumbling block for young/new believers, so I don't get into religious debates when I no longer take on faith what is told me.

I do think, if you consider the idea that large organized religions are simply a way for a small few in power to control the masses, then what Awareness says about desire for political power and deaths by religious extremist could be one and the same.




WhoreMods -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/26/2016 7:24:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I can make a pancake with califlower ...

quote:

Any more than a flour is a cake. Belief however like flour is the main ingredient for religion, and religion can not exist without it.


I just wanted to join in on the word games. That's all.



I do rather like the unspoken assumption of R0's that his own beliefs aren't irrational and comparable to religious zealotry at its worst, but everybody else's are because they don't match his. That's a pretty high level of sophistry, and a hilarious display of fuckwitted hypocrisy coming from somebody who's never met a conspiracy he won't believe as well, isn't it?




WhoreMods -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/26/2016 7:27:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I recall a verse about not being a stumbling block for young/new believers, so I don't get into religious debates when I no longer take on faith what is told me.

I do think, if you consider the idea that large organized religions are simply a way for a small few in power to control the masses, then what Awareness says about desire for political power and deaths by religious extremist could be one and the same.

Certainly religion and the manipulation of the religious for secular ends is a very useful and effective practical tool. Just look at how the wingnut elements of the American Baptists have effectively taken over the Republican party over the last thirty-five years or so.




Real0ne -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/26/2016 7:58:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I can make a pancake with califlower ...

quote:

Any more than a flour is a cake. Belief however like flour is the main ingredient for religion, and religion can not exist without it.


I just wanted to join in on the word games. That's all.





Thats cute and thats where it ends, has no value what so ever if your intention was to contradict what I said, since what I said was nothing more than an allegory to help put into perspective how the belief/religion construct/connection fits together.



WhoreMods *** IGNORED ***
- 9/26/2016 7:24:17 AM
WhoreMods *** IGNORED *** - 9/26/2016 7:27:11 AM






Real0ne -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/26/2016 8:02:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Death due to religious extremism pales in comparison to deaths due to a desire for political power.

Consider the Cultural Revolution and the Maoist and Stalinist purges. Millions dead with no connection to religion. The Holocaust - millions dead with no connection to religion.

People like to pretend religion is somehow responsible to avoid looking at their own heart of darkness. We murder each other because man is a species built on survival - and to survive we've become a species of unrepentant killers.



Other than atheist, what religion were those guys again?


Holocaust? Well we know eisenhower was jewish, not sure about shithill.

You are talking about the 1/2 MILLION people they holocausted in the 14 hour raid correct?

Hellstorm - Exposing The Real Genocide of National Socialist Germany - Documentary

I want to be clear as to which holocaust you are talking about as there have been several throughout history.








WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/26/2016 8:11:41 AM)



@realone wrote:
Thats cute and thats where it ends, has no value what so ever if your intention was to contradict what I said."

I can neither confirm nor deny what you said. I'd have to take something on faith to do so.

Seriously though, I was just being "cute." I tend to let my sense of humor out to play moreb th an I should.




MrRodgers -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/26/2016 10:51:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Death due to religious extremism pales in comparison to deaths due to a desire for political power.

Consider the Cultural Revolution and the Maoist and Stalinist purges. Millions dead with no connection to religion. The Holocaust - millions dead with no connection to religion.

People like to pretend religion is somehow responsible to avoid looking at their own heart of darkness. We murder each other because man is a species built on survival - and to survive we've become a species of unrepentant killers.



Other than atheist, what religion were those guys again?


Holocaust? Well we know eisenhower was jewish, not sure about shithill.

You are talking about the 1/2 MILLION people they holocausted in the 14 hour raid correct?

Hellstorm - Exposing The Real Genocide of National Socialist Germany - Documentary

I want to be clear as to which holocaust you are talking about as there have been several throughout history.






Well given that atheism is not a religion, the religion that was prevalent (and used) in Russia before during and after the Bolshevik revolution...was Catholic and Judaism. Oh...and then Muslim and sure enough...Catholic again. So you see in Russian history and particularly as it suited either Czarist or Bolshevik or Soviet history, religion was quite useful.

The Russian Orthodox (Catholic) Church played a major role in the history of Russia dating back centuries. It supported serfdom and monarchism. It was a source of anti-Semitism, including the fake Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The Russian (Catholic) church contributed to the pogroms that slaughtered Jews and sent Jews fleeing westward.

During World War I, the Russian Orthodox (Catholic) Church looked forward to taking back its old base, Constantinople, from Russia's wartime enemy, the Ottoman Empire. Tsar Nicholas, head of the church, had taken command of Russia's armies and with his failures and the miseries of the Russian people in early 1917 he lost the support of almost everyone and was forced to abdicate.

Russia's new provisional government granted religious rights to all. This extended freedom to Catholics beyond the Edict of Toleration that the tsar had created with the Roman Catholic Church in 1905. Roman Catholic churches had been allowed to open. Now, with the overthrow of the tsar, restrictions on Catholic worship were eliminated.

The civil war continued into 1920 and brought more hunger, starvation and economic ruin. The anti-Soviet forces on their own were without much of a propaganda network and relied on Orthodox priests for their liaison with civilians. A group of bishops gathered where the anti-Bolsheviks held power, and they supported monarchy. Priests had a history of associating Jews with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, and now they were describing socialism as a Jewish creation, the Bolsheviks as Jews and using the slogan "Beat the Jews! Save Russia!"

The when it suited the Soviets they switched 'horses:'

At the close of the civil war the Soviet government tried appealing to those Muslims in Central Asia who had been opposed to tsarist rule of their homeland. The anti-Bolshevik forces had been there during the civil war, supporting tsarist colonial rule. The Bolsheviks removed the remnants of tsarist authority from these areas and sent them to Siberia. In these former colonies were Communists, many of whom were also Muslim. The Bolsheviks did not accept any Orthodox believer into their political party, but they allowed Muslim Communists to be Party members. (isn't that precious ?)

Then jumped on their Orthodox (Catholic) horse when it again suited them:

The Soviet government, meanwhile, had under house arrest the patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, Tikhon, who was accused of having been a saboteur. Tikhon was refusing cooperation with the Soviet government's control over of church properties. A Soviet sponsored council deposed Tikhon as Patriarch, and in 1925 a new patriarch was chosen. This was Sergius I, who would be patriarch until his death in 1944 at the age of 87. Patriarch Sergius expressed his loyalty to the Soviet government, promising to refrain from criticizing the state in any way.

HERE

So as one reads the real history of 'religion' its mere existence was used and from any side...for violent and political purposes.

Furthermore, atheism once again, NOT being a religion at all and expressing NONE of the characteristics of 'A' religion, had no 'following' as a religion and was of no use all violently or politically.




Kirata -> RE: Why the rise of religious extremism? (9/26/2016 11:12:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Atheists believe that matter arose by natural processes...

Atheists believe the universe, all life, the laws of nature, and laws of logic arose by natural processes.


The above conflates atheism with naturalism. Naturalism subsumes atheism, but not the reverse. Simple disbelief in a God or gods does not rule out beliefs about the nature of the universe that transcend the materialist assumption of naturalism.

K.






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