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Pointless jobs - 10/1/2016 9:06:37 PM   
tamaka


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http://evonomics.com/why-capitalism-creates-pointless-jobs-david-graeber/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=digg
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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/2/2016 5:08:11 AM   
Termyn8or


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No comment on that ?

Well, I'll start with this : I finally found something Keynes said with which I agree. The shorter work week. Germany actually did that but some say they went to far and now they got what the People call "McJobs". However they are not blaming it in the Chinese or third world labor. They know it is because they are so productive and a big part of the reason for that is technology.

I've long held and said "Now one Man can do the work of ten, what happens to the other nine ?". Usually I left it at that but maybe it is time to delve into it. What indeed ? We got Phds applying for jobs at McDonald's. We got skilled machinists mowing grass. We got me in electronics working for half what I used to make. People say how good things are going but all I am seeing is the lowering of the standard of living.

In the old days me and the olman used to have dinner parties. If you got the invite you pick your steak and season it, I already knew how to cook it, and potato. We had the beer. In the wintertime it was a roast. Sometimes a pizza, I got pretty good at making pizza actually. No food stamps, we worked. And when at least I went to the grocery store I did not look at the prices.

Things have changed. Prices have gone up but wages have gone down. That "they", they don't really need us. In the old days everyone in the shop needed skills to machine a part for a car or whatever. Now, all a guy has to do is to listen and if one of the CNC machines makes a funny noise, disengage it and go find the guy who knows what he's doing. No reading micrometers, hell people can't even read a ruler. Just load the piece of metal and the machine spits it out as a finished product. How much would you pay someone who can't read a ruler ?

The jobs are not coming back. Today's youth got three choices, steal, deal or the military. As such, what is to impel them to learn and gain skills ? Gain salable skills when there is no market for them ? Why bother ?

Vicious circle. You can tell them to go to school but what future can you truly offer them ? And without those skill there are sure to be no new jobs. And this is not a new thing. Companies in the US even twenty years ago some of them had to teach their employees how to read just so they could read the warning signs, like "HIGH VOLTAGE" n shit like that.

Actually, almost amazingly what has improved literacy somewhat is the advent of texting. Not that they can really spell but there were the days when people could not read anything. But that doesn't get them any skills or work ethic. I wouldn't start a business here.

Lose sleep over this, not that there is any sense in it. Find a solution. Government first of all doesn't care and second, most of them are in government because they could never make it in the private sector. And the private sector doesn't care as long as the quarterly report looks good. And even if we had a good workforce they wouldn't create jobs here because of too much red tape with the government, part of which they supported and part of which was created by liberals who have no concept of math at all.

And speaking of creating jobs, the only jobs government can create are government jobs and we don't want that. There is already too much dead weight. The only thing the government can do is to find a way to attract new business here. Since we got a junk workforce, a junk infrastructure and an economically oppressive government (see CA and NY for examples) the jobs you'll see "created" will be at Subway, Domino's Pizza, McDonald's etc.

Look at the people of OWS. I don't have alot of respect for them because they were bitching about having to buy the cheaper Mercedes because they not on the board of directors at a bank after spending $100,000 on a degree in liberal arts, which as far as I am concerned is basket weaving.. What were they thinking ? NOTHING.

But why even get a technical education ? Learn something useful. We don't even make our own drywall. I can understand putting like 50 million smartphones on a boat, made where they know how to run a clean room. But regular ½" drywall ? Plus it has the wrong chemicals in it and corrodes the steel studs. And there is noone to sue. Your house falls down, fuck you go rent an apartment and BTW you still owe the bank about $200,000. Drywall used to be made here, and it was like six bucks a sheet. And it went on wood studs.

But see there is this thing called progress.

The real definition of a conservative is one who wants to conserve. That means money, the culture, all that good things. Sure, get rid of the bigotry and sexism, but still realize the differences. But the good things, it's like most everything has disappeared. Work ethic, jobs, good economy, even the white picket fence.

I need to stop now. For one I am probably getting to the TLDR zone, plus the fact that it is reminding me of how much we have lost. I used to be able to quit a job ad then go get another at my whim. Yup, I would take some time off and party. Then when the money got low I just go get another job. Try that now, no matter how skilled you are.

And the worst part is that it would have gotten that way even if the government and the people didn't fuck it all up. Even if they were competent. But of course it is worse because they are only minimally competent and they do not work for us.

T^T

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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/2/2016 10:38:17 AM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

http://evonomics.com/why-capitalism-creates-pointless-jobs-david-graeber/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=digg

Having spent a long time working, my personal observation differ. The private sector does not pay people to sit around and do nothing. The public sector does pay people to sit around and do nothing. Another reason to let the free market exist and limit governmental control. Of course, I don't think that was the point the OP wanted to make.

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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/2/2016 10:39:23 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

http://evonomics.com/why-capitalism-creates-pointless-jobs-david-graeber/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=digg
Well cause even useless fucks who major in gender studies gotta eat.


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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/2/2016 10:41:29 AM   
tamaka


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I agree with you but in addition, the point of this article is that most of the jobs we do have are pointless jobs. Jobs used to have merit and meaning and now the jobs we have don't really seem to hold much real value in the world. He is raising the idea that perhaps 'the powers that be' would rather keep us busy (like a hamster on a wheel) than just to admit that hey... this job we have for you really only requires 20 hours a week but the value is the same (say $60k just for example). So we'll give you $60k for this 20 hr per week job instead of forcing you to sit at your desk for another 20 hours just so we can say you work a 40 hr work week. God forbid you actually have some time to enjoy this short life we have doing something enjoyable or pursuing your own dreams.

It is true that our culture has it engrained in our head that a 40- 60 hour work week is what we should have to maintain even though with the advantages of technology, etc... it is often no longer necessary. Also, the creation of somewhat useless, meaningless jobs that don't benefit society seems to be much of what 'educated folk' have to choose from.

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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/2/2016 10:52:52 AM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

http://evonomics.com/why-capitalism-creates-pointless-jobs-david-graeber/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=digg

Having spent a long time working, my personal observation differ. The private sector does not pay people to sit around and do nothing. The public sector does pay people to sit around and do nothing. Another reason to let the free market exist and limit governmental control. Of course, I don't think that was the point the OP wanted to make.


Having spent a long time working and managing people, i would comment that it somewhat depends on the person. People who are very motivated will get involved in other projects at work if their own workload allows. Also some people can accomplish in a day what others take 2- 3 days to do. I think the more a person has some sense of, "I want to do something meaningful" vs. "I want to collect a paycheck" might impact how diagruntled (or depressed) they might get if they find their job to really be... well... stupid. Lol.

I only posted the article because I've never really read anything like that, and i thought it was a bit interesting to consider his ideas. Having grown up on a farm and working since i was 10 and then graduating from college and working in the corporate world i often thought that much of what went on seemed pretty wasteful to me.


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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/2/2016 11:00:47 AM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

http://evonomics.com/why-capitalism-creates-pointless-jobs-david-graeber/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=digg

Having spent a long time working, my personal observation differ. The private sector does not pay people to sit around and do nothing. The public sector does pay people to sit around and do nothing. Another reason to let the free market exist and limit governmental control. Of course, I don't think that was the point the OP wanted to make.


Having spent a long time working and managing people, i would comment that it somewhat depends on the person. People who are very motivated will get involved in other projects at work if their own workload allows. Also some people can accomplish in a day what others take 2- 3 days to do. I think the more a person has some sense of, "I want to do something meaningful" vs. "I want to collect a paycheck" might impact how diagruntled (or depressed) they might get if they find their job to really be... well... stupid. Lol.

I only posted the article because I've never really read anything like that, and i thought it was a bit interesting to consider his ideas. Having grown up on a farm and working since i was 10 and then graduating from college and working in the corporate world i often thought that much of what went on seemed pretty wasteful to me.



I'm betting that most corporate endeavors would be wasteful compared to work on a family farm. I wonder how much of that waste is mandated by government regulation. Although, I agree that the larger an organization gets the more wasteful it becomes. When a large entity tries to find one regulation to fit every situation a lot of ingenuity is mandated away.

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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/2/2016 11:04:19 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


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Most people who think their jobs are bullshit don't actually like their job, however, the people paying them to do the job clearly think the job is worth having done.

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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/2/2016 11:06:25 AM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

Most people who think their jobs are bullshit don't actually like their job, however, the people paying them to do the job clearly think the job is worth having done.

I agree in a small place like a bar. However, go work at someplace like AT&T and I think your proposition falls apart.

< Message edited by Nnanji -- 10/2/2016 11:22:54 AM >

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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/2/2016 11:17:16 AM   
WickedsDesire


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I have been a staunch advocate of the 25 hour week for epochs so i have no idea why it hasn't happened.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Average_annual_hours_actually_worked_per_worker The UK borders on barbaric, the USA is a lot worse. Strangely the economic power house Germany has the least followed by countries that have a higher stander of living than eg UK US

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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/2/2016 11:48:41 AM   
bondageerone


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ha ha ha you are a scrounger on the benefits and nhs system drugged up slag or slut .

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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/3/2016 8:04:55 AM   
MrRodgers


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Seems the link is a scathing critique of the consumerism and materialism of modern society. Seems its point is that for example.....

.....when the IBM 360 was introduced (if memory serves...1960 and ironically the same year the Selectric typewriter) studies have estimated 7 million jobs were effectively and almost immediately...eliminated and.....

.....seems too I guess, they all found...pointless jobs.

The question obviously becomes what practical difference does it make and what...to do about it, if anything at all ?

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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/3/2016 8:52:45 AM   
longwayhome


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The question obviously becomes what practical difference does it make and what...to do about it, if anything at all ?


I agree.

Just make sure you have a job (hopefully one that doesn't damage your health). Don't piss about worrying about your actual contribution to society is. Nobody struggling to make ends meet is going to want to give up their job because an academic doesn't think society needs it.

Paying the bills and supporting your loved ones comes first. Enjoying your job is fantastic, but secondary. Moan about it to your friends or your favourite message board if it helps.

Then you can turn your energies to your existential worth to society and/or trying to change things so we all feel productive and have more leisure time.

One thing is sure, if you have more leisure time, the people who own the companies, the copyrights and the other assets are not going to be in a hurry to pay you more for the time you do work.

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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/3/2016 5:45:02 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
Most people who think their jobs are bullshit don't actually like their job, however, the people paying them to do the job clearly think the job is worth having done.

I agree in a small place like a bar. However, go work at someplace like AT&T and I think your proposition falls apart.


Why would AT&T (or any large company) pay people to work there if it's not worth it to the company? If profit is what a business is after, wouldn't it behoove it to have as little manpower as possible to get the job done efficiently?


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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/3/2016 7:00:22 PM   
sloguy02246


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
Most people who think their jobs are bullshit don't actually like their job, however, the people paying them to do the job clearly think the job is worth having done.

I agree in a small place like a bar. However, go work at someplace like AT&T and I think your proposition falls apart.


Why would AT&T (or any large company) pay people to work there if it's not worth it to the company? If profit is what a business is after, wouldn't it behoove it to have as little manpower as possible to get the job done efficiently?



In theory, yes, getting the necessary work done correctly with as few employees as possible is the textbook norm.

However, I have worked at three very large corporations (steel, combustion engines, and insurance) and I can tell you from many years of first-hand experience that departments within each company were constantly and routinely campaigning to have as many people in their respective areas as possible because the more people they had, the more budget was allocated to them, and the more budget they had, the more political power it gave those department heads within the corporate structure.





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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/3/2016 7:09:47 PM   
dcnovice


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FR

Are there nonpointless jobs?

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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/3/2016 7:29:46 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sloguy02246


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
Most people who think their jobs are bullshit don't actually like their job, however, the people paying them to do the job clearly think the job is worth having done.

I agree in a small place like a bar. However, go work at someplace like AT&T and I think your proposition falls apart.


Why would AT&T (or any large company) pay people to work there if it's not worth it to the company? If profit is what a business is after, wouldn't it behoove it to have as little manpower as possible to get the job done efficiently?



In theory, yes, getting the necessary work done correctly with as few employees as possible is the textbook norm.

However, I have worked at three very large corporations (steel, combustion engines, and insurance) and I can tell you from many years of first-hand experience that departments within each company were constantly and routinely campaigning to have as many people in their respective areas as possible because the more people they had, the more budget was allocated to them, and the more budget they had, the more political power it gave those department heads within the corporate structure.





Yes I definitely have seen that. Also when new ventures, projects, partnerships are created, new staff is needed to accomodate the changes. From what I've seen when a project is over, or a new venture/partnership has been assimilated the people who handled those are 'absorbed" somehow. (Office politics).

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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/3/2016 8:07:15 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sloguy02246


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
Most people who think their jobs are bullshit don't actually like their job, however, the people paying them to do the job clearly think the job is worth having done.

I agree in a small place like a bar. However, go work at someplace like AT&T and I think your proposition falls apart.


Why would AT&T (or any large company) pay people to work there if it's not worth it to the company? If profit is what a business is after, wouldn't it behoove it to have as little manpower as possible to get the job done efficiently?



In theory, yes, getting the necessary work done correctly with as few employees as possible is the textbook norm.

However, I have worked at three very large corporations (steel, combustion engines, and insurance) and I can tell you from many years of first-hand experience that departments within each company were constantly and routinely campaigning to have as many people in their respective areas as possible because the more people they had, the more budget was allocated to them, and the more budget they had, the more political power it gave those department heads within the corporate structure.

Just to add to the discussion, I promise that I've worked at several companies that some would notice as household names. Never worked for AT&T. Did work fo Quest, which used to be Bell, USWest, and a couple of other things prior to mergers.

My personal experience doesn't mesh with some of this because folks are kind of forgetting something called the Kaizen theory. Roughly translated, it means "continuous improvement". Toyota was the first huge manufacturer that put this 'theory' into practice and they really did get some fantastic results. (Seriously, read the book.) The whole idea of this is that you cut labor, while maximizing production, and yet realizing that you will never reach zero. There's always a way to make it better from whatever you are doing now.

The really neat thing was, in customer service related types of industries, it went completely the other way. A lot of companies (such as AT&T) found that over-staffing could make it appear that customer satisfaction was the top priority. Really cool marketing trick.



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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/3/2016 8:34:33 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Are there nonpointless jobs?

A very close friend having worked for the IRS for 30 years, went to a meeting held by his supervisor, the top person in this one particular dept., batch mainframe computing. Having been with the federal govt/IRS for over 40 years, she announced that she was no longer going to do anything as the group leaders would be responsible for her duties as had been delegated. My friend was one of those group leaders.

She would show up only for personnel (HR) liaison duties. (Time off, vacations, payroll etc.) There was essentially nothing anybody in that dept. could do about her decision and the feds. were not going to fire her. Her job had become a nonpointless, yet...a pointless job. Only in the govt. bureaucracy (or other types of non-profit org.) would this happen.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 10/3/2016 8:35:16 PM >


_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

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RE: Pointless jobs - 10/3/2016 8:38:32 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: sloguy02246


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
Most people who think their jobs are bullshit don't actually like their job, however, the people paying them to do the job clearly think the job is worth having done.

I agree in a small place like a bar. However, go work at someplace like AT&T and I think your proposition falls apart.


Why would AT&T (or any large company) pay people to work there if it's not worth it to the company? If profit is what a business is after, wouldn't it behoove it to have as little manpower as possible to get the job done efficiently?



In theory, yes, getting the necessary work done correctly with as few employees as possible is the textbook norm.

However, I have worked at three very large corporations (steel, combustion engines, and insurance) and I can tell you from many years of first-hand experience that departments within each company were constantly and routinely campaigning to have as many people in their respective areas as possible because the more people they had, the more budget was allocated to them, and the more budget they had, the more political power it gave those department heads within the corporate structure.





Yes I definitely have seen that. Also when new ventures, projects, partnerships are created, new staff is needed to accomodate the changes. From what I've seen when a project is over, or a new venture/partnership has been assimilated the people who handled those are 'absorbed" somehow. (Office politics).


Increasingly though, more of those jobs than ever before...are temp.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to tamaka)
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