RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism

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HarryVanWinkle -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 1:36:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fullofgrace Lincoln only "freed" the slaves it was politically expedient for him to free - the ones in the south. meaning that he didn't support freedom for all slaves, and if i recall correctly, he himself owned slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in the parts of the country that were still in active rebellion against the government. It did not free the slaves in any parts of the revolting states which were occupied at the time. In short, it only freed the slaves which he did not have it in his power, at the time of the Proclamation, to actually free. However, Lincoln's purpose in fighting the war was not to free the slaves, but fulfill his oath of office, to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." To preserve the Constitution, it was necessary to preserve the Union. He said, "If I could preserve the Union by freeing all of the slaves, I would do so. If I could preserve the Union by freeing none of the slaves, I would do so. If I could preserve the Union by freeing some of the slaves and leaving the rest enslaved, I would do that as well." Lincoln himself, while not an Abolitionist, was anti-slavery. His campaign platform was to prevent the extension of slavery into new territories and states. The south knew that if his platform were enacted eventually enough free states would be created so as to be able to amend the Constitution to ban slavery over their refusal to ratify it. That's why they revolted. Lincoln never owned slaves.

fullofgrace -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 1:38:07 AM)
most of which i covered in a post a few posts down, if you bothered to read :) including my apology for mistakenly saying that lincoln owned slaves.

HarryVanWinkle -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 1:39:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey I just did a quick search on Lincoln. Looks like he only lived in slave free states. He did see a slave auction in New Orleans once when his dad took him there. And at Presidential level almost everything in political (even what is for dinner - At least it was at the 3 Ambassadors Dinners that I had to attend). Actually, Lincoln was born in Kentucky, which was a slave state, and slavery was legal in the District of Columbia both times he lived there.

HarryVanWinkle -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 1:53:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fullofgrace most of which i covered in a post a few posts down, if you bothered to read :) including my apology for mistakenly saying that lincoln owned slaves. I did bother to read. After I answered the previous post. If I read every post in a thread before responding to any of them, I wouldn't post much of anything at all, since my online time is somewhat limited. You were probably thinking of Thomas Jefferson, who tried to put an anti-slavery clause into the Declaration of Independance and wrote often of the evils of slavery... all the while owning several hundred slaves himself. Your apology is both accepted and unnecessary. As a longtime student of history, I have a tendency to climb up on my soapbox whenever a subject comes up that I actually know something about.[:)]

Level -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 4:30:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra I think this list hits it right on the head. We have a dictator in the white house and his religious extremists backing him will and are ruining the country. He has a lot of power and influence behind him. He has his tentacles woven all through the various Government departments. If we do not watch it there will be NO line between church and state, they will open up camps for people who do not fit in with their ideas (do not say it cannot happen that is what people said about Hitler's concentration camps). Most of us here would fit into that category as "sexual deviants". I saw a quote the other day from a Congressman whose name escapes me now, that said, “This country was founded on God and belief. The founding Father’s never meant there to be a separation of Church and State.” Every time I hear talk about camps I want to grab my tinfoil hat [:D]. Seriously, Adolph Hitler was insane, he was paranoid, he was vicious and hate-filled; anyone speaking against him DIED. Bush does not fit in the same category, and the only people in "camps" are those he thinks (rightly or wrongly, I'm sure it's both) are terrorists. You know, like the ones that flew airplanes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon? Women's rights are being taken away while the Evangelists are telling us "Its ok you need to be submissive to your husbands anyway, its what GOD wants." Well screw that I do not believe in your God, I have one of my own thank you and she tells me to be my own person. Women can be Dominant or submissive and we do not need or want to be told by some two dollar Preacher what God wants us to do.. Besides abortion (which has scarcely had a dent put in it), which "rights" are being taken away from women? They want to take away abortion? Are these dim wits who want abortion outlawed going to take care of all these kids that the Mothers do not want? Because I can tell you, most of the Fathers of these kids do not want them either. Particularly if Dad is a rapist or the woman’s, own Father/blood relative. How about making the men who impregnate these women have vasetectomies? At least they can suffer some too and I am sure you would see a big jump in condom sales. Let's sterilize both man and woman that have kids they won't care for. If the 93% of abortions that are done for convience were outlawed, then measures should be taken to care for the unwanted children; it's not their fault their parents were irresponsible idiots. Oh that brings us to the point about how sinful birth control is. God wants women to produce as many babies as they possibly can, so say the evangelists. What they really mean by that is “Ladies whenever the old man wants you to spread your legs do it and don’t pressure him about condoms because he won’t get all the sensation he desires, nor should you bother him about expensive birth control. Just lay there do what he says and if you get pregnant it’s your OWN fault.” Not all "evangelists" feel that way, and the ones that do are foolish, I agree with you. Freedom of speech? You just go to a Bush function and wear a shirt that says "Bush sucks" see how long it is before security whisks your ass out of there. Or go to a book signing and try to debate to the author who happens to be very involved in politics and see how long before he has your ass thrown out by security. I tend to doubt that happens at functions, except rarely, but at book signings, you're at someone's place of business, and they have the right to kick you out. It's the same way at CM, we can't say anything we want, this isn't our place. All in all it’s a sad state of affairs and its getting progressively worse as time goes on. I envision the US becoming a total dictatorship with the secret police and the camps. Sort of like what you saw happening in the movie “V for Vendetta.” Or perhaps there might even be another civil war here, who knows? People keep saying that couldn’t happen…watch it. Unless people wake up and start fighting for their rights and make our politicians accountable for their actions and stop their twisting of the Constitution to fit their needs. I do agree that people need to "wake up" and make sure their rights are protected, no matter who is in office. There is erosion, and has been for a long, long time. Read James Bovard's Freedom In Chains sometimes. ~Lashra

caitlyn -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 4:38:21 AM)
Ken ... Trust me on this ... nobody wants to see you nude, or fucking in a park. [;)] I know lots of nice Republicans, as a matter of fact my foster dad is one ... but this hyper defense mode so many of you reply with, just makes you look paranoid. Blowhard right-wing radio and television folks have been painting the left with a broad brush for quite some time. I was asked by a right wing participant on this board to listen to Rush on the radio, and so I did ... for an entire week. About every ten minutes he says, "Democrats think ... etc" ... then proceded to bash that opinion and them as a group. But of course, when some it returned their way, so many Republicans want to whine about it. As a helpful suggestion, stop being the party that can dish it out but can't take it ... and people will stop treating you like the party that can dish it out but can't take it. [;)]

Alumbrado -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 7:43:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle quote: ORIGINAL: fullofgrace most of which i covered in a post a few posts down, if you bothered to read :) including my apology for mistakenly saying that lincoln owned slaves. I did bother to read. After I answered the previous post. If I read every post in a thread before responding to any of them, I wouldn't post much of anything at all, since my online time is somewhat limited. You were probably thinking of Thomas Jefferson, who tried to put an anti-slavery clause into the Declaration of Independance and wrote often of the evils of slavery... all the while owning several hundred slaves himself. Your apology is both accepted and unnecessary. As a longtime student of history, I have a tendency to climb up on my soapbox whenever a subject comes up that I actually know something about.[:)] 140 to 200, not several hundred, IIRC. And Grant was the slave owning President after the Emancipation Proclamation.

LotusSong -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 8:14:15 AM)
It says "COMPARE" to the said tactics and states the author’s opinion that they are strikingly similar. Just take a breath and think it through. I know that I am desperate for a change in government this November. I’m even more a tad raw on the issue of our “president” with his veto of the stem cell research bill this week, because of his belief that it is morally wrong. He could give a rats ass because he seems to know the purpose of every cell that comes to this planet. If my karma was to come here in cell form to assist in curing diseases at that stage of my life, I’d be honored. When Bush vetoed the stem cell research bill this week because of his own personal BELIEFS- that just drove this entire issue home. How can he decide he knows the whole purpose of every living cell that comes to the planet? Does he now think he is GOD? But it won’t hit home until he sees one of his family be stricken with the diseases that the research would cure (yes, it’s a would/could right now but it’s the only hope we have to date). Yep, he won’t see the impact of it until he sees Momma Bush’s mental faculties deteriorate to Alzheimer’s or maybe his father’s bright mind might be locked in a body frozen with Parkinson’s disease for 25 years (like I had to see my mother go through and my Grandfather AND my Uncle) Plus myself and my cousin are dealing with MS. (gee, I hope his twins don’t come down with that!) I’m not one way or the other on political parties- I do know the parties are not like they used to be or maybe they have always been this way and I’ve just gotten more life experience under my belt to see them for what they are. That whole veto just dashed any hopes that research will move forward. The stem cells he DID ok in the past is a very small number to be used and will become insignificant in short order.

LotusSong -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 8:23:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey and you are right It was Lotus. I got lost cause you sounded like her. so let me rephrase Ken- last night it was late and I went to bed! I DO have a life and I wasn't going to sit here to see what posts were going to show up on this thread all night.- OK??? quote: For Lotus who apparently isn't wanting to get into the fray, jsut start it. I never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes my time and irritates the pig. I just leave everyone their right to free speach without fear of being recorded with wire tap or loss of jobs. quote: That is because people like Lotus puts all of us into their well defined cubbies like Republican or Democrat or whatever Uh..... When and where??? REally, I understand where some parties heads are at and why.. because it makes them feel warm and safe and it smells like home :)

LotusSong -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 8:35:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong Hitler has a saying: One Book, One Reich, One Furor The saying was, "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer." Translation: "One people, one nation, one leader." Actually, "Reich" is a bit hard to translate directly. It falls somewhere between "Nation" and "Empire." THANK YOU! I knew I didn'thave it right and I aqppreciate the correction.

maybemaybenot -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 8:59:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong When Bush vetoed the stem cell research bill this week because of his own personal BELIEFS- that just drove this entire issue home. How can he decide he knows the whole purpose of every living cell that comes to the planet? Does he now think he is GOD? ....................... That whole veto just dashed any hopes that research will move forward. The stem cells he DID ok in the past is a very small number to be used and will become insignificant in short order. LotusSong: Just a small correction: The veto was against embryonic stem cell research, not stem cell research in it's entirely. The bill blocked Federal funding for embyonic stem cell research, not anyone performing stem cell research. State and private funding will continue. So it is indeed more likely than not that it will proceed forward. Germany and other Europeans countries are trying to do the same thing and block UA dollars from being spent on embryonic research < link below>. I have no political or religious/moral opinion on this topic, btw. mbmbn http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2106539,00.html

LotusSong -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 10:12:54 AM)
(sigh) a block is a block is a block. Thank you for your additions and corrections.

EnglishDomNW -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 10:57:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey We should open our borders to anyone that wants to come here and blow us up (refering to 9/11 and the ILLEGALS that cross over daily) If illegals are crossing over daily, trust me, anyone wanting to blow you up is probably already there quote: So being proud of your nation and your way of life is a bad thing I guess? Taken to extremes, it's a very bad thing yes. Ask anyone who ended up in Auschwitz. Nationalism is second only to religion as the perfect way to control people. "You're not a patriot unless you agree with this" is no better than "You're not a Christian/Muslim unless you do this"

Estring -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 4:33:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra I think this list hits it right on the head. We have a dictator in the white house and his religious extremists backing him will and are ruining the country. He has a lot of power and influence behind him. He has his tentacles woven all through the various Government departments. If we do not watch it there will be NO line between church and state, they will open up camps for people who do not fit in with their ideas (do not say it cannot happen that is what people said about Hitler's concentration camps). Most of us here would fit into that category as "sexual deviants". I saw a quote the other day from a Congressman whose name escapes me now, that said, “This country was founded on God and belief. The founding Father’s never meant there to be a separation of Church and State.” Women's rights are being taken away while the Evangelists are telling us "Its ok you need to be submissive to your husbands anyway, its what GOD wants." Well screw that I do not believe in your God, I have one of my own thank you and she tells me to be my own person. Women can be Dominant or submissive and we do not need or want to be told by some two dollar Preacher what God wants us to do.. They want to take away abortion? Are these dim wits who want abortion outlawed going to take care of all these kids that the Mothers do not want? Because I can tell you, most of the Fathers of these kids do not want them either. Particularly if Dad is a rapist or the woman’s, own Father/blood relative. How about making the men who impregnate these women have vasetectomies? At least they can suffer some too and I am sure you would see a big jump in condom sales. Oh that brings us to the point about how sinful birth control is. God wants women to produce as many babies as they possibly can, so say the evangelists. What they really mean by that is “Ladies whenever the old man wants you to spread your legs do it and don’t pressure him about condoms because he won’t get all the sensation he desires, nor should you bother him about expensive birth control. Just lay there do what he says and if you get pregnant it’s your OWN fault.” Freedom of speech? You just go to a Bush function and wear a shirt that says "Bush sucks" see how long it is before security whisks your ass out of there. Or go to a book signing and try to debate to the author who happens to be very involved in politics and see how long before he has your ass thrown out by security. All in all it’s a sad state of affairs and its getting progressively worse as time goes on. I envision the US becoming a total dictatorship with the secret police and the camps. Sort of like what you saw happening in the movie “V for Vendetta.” Or perhaps there might even be another civil war here, who knows? People keep saying that couldn’t happen…watch it. Unless people wake up and start fighting for their rights and make our politicians accountable for their actions and stop their twisting of the Constitution to fit their needs. ~Lashra Do you actually know what a dictator is? Last I checked, President Bush won 2 democratic elections. Not quite a dictator. And what rights have you lost? I keep asking this question and no one seems to be able to answer it. All you get are hysterical rants about a dictator and religious extremists taking over. Where? You can't even say Merry Christmas anymore. What extremists are responsible for that? Religous ones? Lol. And what women's rights are being taken away exactly? If Roe V Wade is struck down, all that will happen is that it will become a state issue instead of a federal one. As it should have been all along. Did you know that? And as for free speech, last I checked, The Dixie Chicks are not in jail, neither are Kanye West, Alec Baldwin or the myriad other dopey celebrities who have spoken out against President Bush. Finally, basing your opinions on a bad movie isn't a good idea either.

LotusSong -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 5:31:36 PM)
Hitler was elected democratically also. He even solved their unemployment problem by building the autobahn. They loved the guy. The country was prosperous. Then he established what he felt was a threat to the common man... all the while endearing himself to them. Then he amassed his own army (actually it was BEFORE he was chancellor), once he put his thugs in positions of power it was easy to assume the role of dictator. People were so blind with patriotism, few saw it coming until he came for THEM. They saw him as their savior. (To any German national's reading this, please correct me if I am off target here)

Alumbrado -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 5:42:16 PM)
You don't need to be a German national to know that is not true that Hitler was elected democratically. As already pointed out, basing our beliefs on fiction (and propaganda), is a bad idea.

LotusSong -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 7:02:33 PM)
Page 2, 1st paragraph; http://www.toy-soldier-gallery.com/Articles/Hitler/Hitler2.html And for those who do not like to read:: http://bush-hitler.com/

Alumbrado -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 7:23:44 PM)
What is accomplished by pretending that being elected to an office within a political party is the same as being democratically elected ruler of an entire nation? From your own link: "Although Hitler had the support of certain sections of the German population he never gained an elected majority" And from The History Place: "On a dark, rainy Sunday, April 10, 1932, the people voted. They gave Hitler 13,418,547 or 36%, an increase of two million, and Hindenburg 19,359,983 or 53%, an increase of under a million." http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/runs.htm And: http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/collapse.htm

maybemaybenot -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 7:29:33 PM)
Hitler was appointed Chancellor, not elected. His appointement was given under duress and certainly not with the majority vote of the people of Germany He was elected to his Party, but not as Chancellor of Germany. Your article is somewhat misleading in that it says he was elected to his party and three years later * became* chancellor of Germany. They missed what happened in those three years and his ride to Chancellor, actually stealing/blackmailing it from the elected Chancellor. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitlerdemo.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler specifically 3.3 of that article. mbmbn edited to add: Hitlers rise was very complex and many people often think he was elected.

LotusSong -> RE: 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (7/23/2006 8:55:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot Hitler was appointed Chancellor, not elected. His appointement was given under duress and certainly not with the majority vote of the people of Germany He was elected to his Party, but not as Chancellor of Germany. Your article is somewhat misleading in that it says he was elected to his party and three years later * became* chancellor of Germany. They missed what happened in those three years and his ride to Chancellor, actually stealing/blackmailing it from the elected Chancellor. http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitlerdemo.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler specifically 3.3 of that article. mbmbn edited to add: Hitlers rise was very complex and many people often think he was elected. Evidently, the History channel thinks it's complex too :) Thanks again. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m27.gif[/image] I should just start a Bush - Hitler comparison thread. This one is on Facisim characteristics. I think I'll wait a bit. Too much Bush/Hitler is not good for the digestion.. While I was researching the election issue, I found that clip that I had not seen before. I wonder how I missed that tad of info.[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m28.gif[/image] "I edit..therefore I am"

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