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RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 6:30:55 PM

stanton

Posts: 41
Status: offline

A quote form somebody around here- think he was kidding, but-
"If I just fucking refuse to tolerate shit like giving reassuring hugs to people who can't seem to get through a loved ones funeral without needing one, I should find a compatible partner. I mean, it's like: "Go hug yourself, bitch! You pulled this same weak-ass shit when your mother died. If your sister comes out of that cancer ward in a box you damn well better not go getting all clingy on my Domly ass or I'll go and find sombody mature."

*textbook example of emotional sadist.
ain't my kind of thing.

be well......

< Message edited by stanton -- 7/23/2006 6:35:31 PM >

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 41

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 6:33:58 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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~ Fast Reply ~

Julia, interesting thread. I think those who speak ill of "emotional masochism" are equating such an experience with those with a "victim" mindset. Example, "Ohhhh poor me, Master hasn't paid attention to me all week." followed by tears, whinings, and other types of drama.

I don't call myself an emotional masochist; I don't tend to label myself things, but...perhaps this example may provide clarification (it is similar to what BeingChewsie said): There is something about knowing Master is Master and will contact me when, how or if he chooses and that is that, which is a comfort to me. It feeds my submissiveness. When Master does (or doesn't do) or says things that "hurt," it is very place-putting. When I miss him it is agonizing, and yet to suffer like that makes me feel alive. It reminds me of my place with him, and of my need for him, and of my love to him. To feel such "hurt" reminds me of my devotion to him, in that it will not change my service to him in any way.

For example, just the other night, Master woke up and said some things to me that could otherwise be considered quite cruel. From him they are not cruel to me, but none-the-less I was pained a bit by what he was saying and how. Such pain made me feel very small, such that I curled up at his feet and groveled to them, loving and adoring them and knowing my place to receive such a talking to out of the blue if it eased him. The funny thing was, in the morning I teased him, asking if he had a bad dream because he was so "mean" (calling it mean was tongue in cheek). He smiled at me and said he didn't remember it - must have done it in his sleep, but was pleased I was not upset.

For some of us, suffering for our Masters makes us feel as small as a hard flogging does to others. I don't call it a kink so much as just part of what makes us who we are.

I'm glad you asked the question, Julia. Very thought-provoking.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 42

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 6:39:11 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

Some people don't feel that they are really submitting, unless they are suffering.

I never understood the martyr mindset, but it's out there.

I appreciate your qualifying your statements as opinion by acknowledging that it is you who does not understand what someone else may understand and embrace fully, deeply, richly and with great rewards.

For the sake of discussion, I think it would be beneficial for us to remember that there is a difference between being "submissive" and being a "masochist"...and as everyone present knows, there are threads out there that expound on that concept. For those who have not yet committed KOM's diagram to memory, perhaps LA will show up and point us in their direction.

Im usually careful with how I use the word "martyr" because in my mind it carries a negative connotation. When I was little, if we were to act out in a passive-aggressive sort of way, my mother, who lacked access to that kind of terminology, would say something very insightful like: "Oh please, Heather, nobody likes a martyr!"

Thousands of religious people who find peace and a connection to their God in learning about the lives of those who were literally martyred may have a very different reaction to the word.

Is it not possible that "suffering" is only one way to process purposefully-induced negative emotions and that another way to process them would be to frame them as exercises in detachment?

Would it not be also valid for a person to use "suffering" as a spiritual exercise, if they were to be able to do it in an honest, open and responsible manner?

What makes physical pain (which you could describe as "suffering") an acceptable and "healthy" kink but emotional pain not so?

Great post, all the way around. I find it odd that some so readily accept a submissive reaction in the physical makings of the ways of D/s, but not the emotional. Lack of understanding, perhaps. To me, "martyr" has more of a "woe is me" negative connotation, and I certainly don't see the suffering we are speaking of to be that.

(in reply to justheather)

Post #: 43

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 6:49:24 PM

justheather

Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Sadism is an act in which gratification is obtained by inflicting physical or
mental pain on a Consenting Moral and Healthy Person(s) and/or on oneself.

Sadist is a Moral and Healthy person who gains gratification from
inflicting pain upon a Consenting Moral and Healthy Person(s) and/or on
oneself.

Masochism is an act in which gratification is gained by enduring the
infliction of physical and mental pain by a Consenting Moral and Healthy
Person(s) and/or by oneself.

Masochist is a Consenting Moral and Healthy person that gains pleasure from
pain inflicted upon them by a Consenting Moral and Healthy Person(s) and/or
by oneself.

Im not usually one to get all worked up over semantics, but I have to comment on your use of the phrase "Consenting Moral and Healthy Person(s)" in your definitions. The inclusion of this phrase, in my opinion, is quite validating and empowering.

I think you have hit the nail on the head by focusing on the hypothetical emotional masochist as a healthy vs non-healthy person to begin with as opposed to the label being placed on said person deeming whether or not he or she is healthy.

When you create or accept such a positive definition of the word "masochist", I think, the question of such a person's ability to also be "healthy" is no longer a stumbling point. You have already addressed that in your working definition of the word "masochist".

Certainly a person who is masochistic may be unhealthy, but that can be explored outside of the bounds of their masochism. Removing masochistic tendencies from an unhealthy person does not make him suddenly whole and healthy. It makes him a non-masochistic, unhealthy person.

Of course, these are your working definitions and other people may choose to use different ones, but adopting such positive personal definitions might help those who are struggling with accepting aspects of their personality or certain tendencies without feeling guilty or "sick" because they enjoy a certain form of masochism.

Oh, and I havent slept in twenty-seven hours so if what I just said makes no sense whatsoever please just disregard. TY.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 44

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 6:52:48 PM

justheather

Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
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Thank you for the compliment. I enjoyed your insights as well, ownedgirlie.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 45

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 7:20:08 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

Oh, and I havent slept in twenty-seven hours so if what I just said makes no sense whatsoever please just disregard. TY.

Thank you for sharing your thoughs. Dispite your lack of sleep.... *glances at picture... reflects quickly on her post* I still find you very attractive and intellectually stimulating. what you said made perfect sense to me. Now please get some sleep before you start raving like a lunatic!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to justheather)

Post #: 46

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 7:23:45 PM

justheather

Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
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Yes...or before Daddy gets upset Im not taking care of what belongs to him.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 47

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 7:39:12 PM

Fawne

Posts: 462
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

This is a very interesting post, julia, because I'm one of those people who tends to use the term "emotional masochist" pejoratively, and I'd never use the plain term "masochist" pejoratively. I think it just comes from my experience with emotional masochists. They tend to have unhealthy relationships; they seek out bad situations and even go out of their way to sabotage a relationship when it's going good. That doesn't seem like a kink to me. That seems more like someone who has some kind of emotional problem, someone who is never going to be happy until he or she works out what's going on--and also someone who, perhaps inadvertently but nevertheless selfishly, waltzes in and out of other people's lives and causes them anguish and suffering too.

There are plenty of emotionally healthy masochists, and as far as I'm concerned they do not fit into this category at all. They're just people who enjoy pain. (Edited to add, since I left this point out: people who seek out humiliating or degrading situations aren't what I mean by "emotional masochists" either. Some people need humiliation in order to be sexually fulfilled, but otherwise they are perfectly adept at maintaining a relationship.)

I have always 'fessed up about being a masochist. I can get sexual excitement from an amount of physical pain and even mental humiliation, objectification etc.in the context of WIITWD.

Plain meaness? No way! OK.... need to add- some people believe in this, but personally I find "emotional S or M" to be counterproductive, even if given with good intentions... if that makes sense to anyone.

Hugs, fawne

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 48

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 7:50:23 PM

Fawne

Posts: 462
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Such pain made me feel very small, such that I curled up at his feet and groveled to them, loving and adoring them and knowing my place
I don't call it a kink so much as just part of what makes us who we are.

Dear ownedgirlie: It may make you to be who you are and that's super. Happy for you if are self realized.

Personally, I don't need to feel "small" to love, adore, curl up at his feet or know my place. He is bigger than that....
But, of course.. to each her own.

Thanks Julia for another good thread!

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 49

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 7:59:46 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

Fawne,

I am reading this in a different light, especially after reading justheather's response, and correlating this with a deep reverence.

When people interact with things they believe to be sacred they often feel small in relation to it. It could be a church, a sunrise, an ocean, meditative prayer, praying with others. I have felt this way when praying, small and insignificant, reverant, in awe of the emotions swirling inside of me. I remember when I finally got in touch with my grief over losing my father 23 years after his death, there was a sad deep beauty in the tears I was able to express, the grief had this cleansing quality to it that was deeply spiritual.

Some people may feel these things within their relationship with their dominant person, who am I to tell them it isn't valid to feel beauty in the release of emotional pain? I have felt that myself, just not in this context. The ambivalence of the sacred,.. beautiful, peaceful, awe inspiring, horrifying in its power to hurt, and soothing in its ability to heal....

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/23/2006 8:01:30 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Fawne)

Post #: 50

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 8:13:44 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Such pain made me feel very small, such that I curled up at his feet and groveled to them, loving and adoring them and knowing my place
I don't call it a kink so much as just part of what makes us who we are.

Dear ownedgirlie: It may make you to be who you are and that's super. Happy for you if are self realized.

Personally, I don't need to feel "small" to love, adore, curl up at his feet or know my place. He is bigger than that....
But, of course.. to each her own.

Thanks Julia for another good thread!

Fawne: I don't need to feel small to love, either. I just happen to like it. And so he let's me. And I think that's pretty big of him.

Julia: Your response to Fawne's thread was right on target - you have nailed it wonderfully. I love that you can pose a question about something like this and be so open to the answers that come about.

(in reply to Fawne)

Post #: 51

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 8:15:46 PM

Fawne

Posts: 462
Status: offline

Julia:

You put that so beautifully, I am awed. Your beauty shines on....

ownedgirlie: Yes, I see now, TY. He is allowing you to express yourself in a way that makes you both happy.

Humbly, fawne

< Message edited by Fawne -- 7/23/2006 8:23:58 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 52

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 8:16:09 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

Oh golly ownedgirlie, you just made me blush

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 53

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 8:21:25 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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to you both.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 54

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 8:27:13 PM

Fawne

Posts: 462
Status: offline

Good night, lovely, beautiful souls.

Thank you for warming my heart.

In peace and understanding, fawne

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 55

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 8:29:01 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

Good night, lovely, beautiful souls.

Thank you for warming my heart.

In peace and understanding, fawne

Good night sweetie

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Fawne)

Post #: 56

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 8:40:14 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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~ Blows a kiss good night

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 57

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 9:02:37 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Julia, she's right, I think you come out with some of the best threads on this site!
Tom

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 58

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 10:46:19 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather
Im not usually one to get all worked up over semantics, but I have to comment on your use of the phrase "Consenting Moral and Healthy Person(s)" in your definitions. The inclusion of this phrase, in my opinion, is quite validating and empowering.

Actually, I was having a bit of trouble with that. Just because someone is not healthy and moral, doesn't negate them being a sadist. It just makes them an immoral and unhealthy sadist.

We all know that there are plenty of people out there who are sadistic, masochistic, etc, who are not moral or healthy, but they are still sadists and masochists. I think it's an important distinction to make, given how many people think using the labels releases them from any accusations of being unhealthy in their pursuits.

People may say I am being overly hung-up on semantics here but for me it was not something I was comfortable reading.

I think KoM has the right idea...but I would have said:

A healthy sadist is a moral person who only gains pleasure from inflicting pain on consenting, healthy adults, or on themselves...etc.

To quote Sinergy, I may be wrong yadda yadda yadda.

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to justheather)

Post #: 59

RE: Emotional Masochism - 7/23/2006 10:55:09 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
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Julia,

I think you make a good point about the sacred and divine, and feeling small in relation. It definitely puts an added dimension to emotional masochism.

Like most submissives, I've felt that way many times during D/s. It really is a spiritual thing for me. However, I don't need emotional masochism to go there, personally, and I'm very happy that I don't.

To each their own, but I have no wish to walk that particular path. Objectification in play, has it's appeal. But I'd be very unlikely to appreciate a dominant who disregarded my feelings, my needs, and my humanity, on a larger basis.

Again, that's just my belief, and it works for me.

** edited because I'm not completely clearheaded tonight. LOL

< Message edited by Vancouver_cinful -- 7/23/2006 10:56:14 PM >

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 60

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