RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban

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mnottertail -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 12:18:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Sigh... The "well regulated militia" is an enabling clause stating why the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. ___________________________________________ The cost of $150.00 per firearm to implement micro-stamping is due to the record keeping, labor for back fitting, and certification to show a given micro-stamp is tied to a given firearm serial number. Since it takes about 5 minutes to grind off the micro-stamp on a firing pin and even less time to strip down and replace a firing pin; the added cost to a firearm is totally ineffectual in gaining any benefit to criminal justice prosecution. Micro-stamping is just more onerous bureaucratic requirement with no benefit to anyone. _________________________________________________ There are already background check requirements in place to purchase a firearm. Alluding that there are none is fantasy based inflammatory rhetoric. We don't need more legislation we just need the administration to enforce the laws already on the books. But, enforcing the laws already in effect doesn't make political brownie points like screaming things like "gun show loophole". BTW, the "gun show loophole" is a total fantasy fabrication to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt. Forget changing firing pins, how many shots will it take for the repeated impact to distort the microstamping to the point that it is useless, it is just excuse to make it harder to afford firearms. It is at its heart racist, because since blacks have a higher poverty rate than any other group they will be more heavily penalized. How many idiots does it take to deform case hardened steel and sometimes harder) with brass? at least two so far. How many idiots have deformed firing pins after a couple of shots due to the licorice it is turned from? One? When I think of the cost of stamping out one piece of brass casing and you have to throw away the stamp because it has been deformed such that it is out of tolerance, hell squashed flat......I know bullets are expensive because of fucking idiots, but I never realized how expensive they were because of brass gnawing the tool and die to shit before the second blank.

MercTech -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 7:49:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Oh, no that is untrue. private sales require no background check, some states require no check at gunshows. and if you grind off the microstamp, the stamp would be female, the gun dont fire. Uh, you can grind serial numbers off of guns even now. Those absent laws are not enforceable. The fabrication fantasy is what? Only six states (California, Colorado, Illinois, New York, Oregon and Rhode Island) require universal background checks on allfirearm sales at gun shows, including sales by unlicensed dealers. Three more states (Connecticut, Maryland and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Eight other states (Hawaii, Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, Nebraska and North Carolina) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the gun show loophole. In two states, voters themselves closed the loophole when their legislatures refused to do so. On November 7, 2000, the citizens of Colorado overwhelmingly voted 70% – 30% in favor of Amendment 22, closing the gun show loophole in their state. The referendum followed the tragic shooting at Columbine High School on April 20, 1999 (the guns used in the shooting were purchased from private sellers at Denver gun shows). In Oregon, voters also voted overwhelmingly, 62% – 38%, in favor of Measure 5, effectively closing the gun show loophole in their state. Does anyone think that criminals go to licensed dealers to get their guns? I did mention that private sales between individuals do not require a background check. Again, there is no gun show loophole. Background checks are required for commercial sale of a firearm. If one is selling guns at a gun show; you are in the business of making a profit from gun sales and require a FFL and are required to do the concomitant background checks. When registering for a table at a gun show to sell actual firearms and not accessories a copy of your FFL is very often required so the promoter can't be considered as culpable in promoting an illegal firearm sale. The "gun show loophole" that needs closing was a myth used to scare the gullible. FYI, how about some actual info on whether you need a FFL to sell firearms at a gun show? Hmm? https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download By your own statement; "the guns used in the shooting were purchased from private sellers at Denver gun shows" and not from merchants at the gun show. Why not close the "Craigslist loophole" or the "want ads loophole" as well? Yep, "gun show loophole" is a myth. A gun show is not a "private sale" and in actual practice you will find you will do the required background checks when purchasing a firearm at a gun show. And, if the illegal firearm dealer is working out of the trunk of his car in the parking lot is caught; he will be up on federal charges.

mnottertail -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 8:16:02 AM)
Again no. Hobbyists at gunshows are not required to background check. From your link, and I have that actual info as an FFL: Under federal law, a person engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is a person who “devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.” Under federal law, conducting business “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that “the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection.” Consistent with this approach, federal law explicitly exempts persons “who make occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.” And that is the dodge that many use (I know some of them) Nope, the gunshow loophole is not a myth. As you have so eloquently laid before us, you dont need to be a dealer at a gunshow in most states. That means at gunshows you could go here and there, selling and buying guns and fly under the radar, and multiply that by x number at every one of the thousands of gun shows where the federal loophole exists, and is not closed by the state. Thank you for your unwitting service.

mnottertail -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 8:27:53 AM)
The craigslist, gunshow, want ads, et cetera loopholes would be closed by universal backround checks. Then we have to work on the NICs system and how to fund and include in the law the requirement that all states and their respective government entities share and upload the qualifiying and disqualifying prohibitions. There needs to be a disqualifier on a person while they are the object of a protective order and then removed when they are not, for instance.

Wayward5oul -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 12:35:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Oh, no that is untrue. private sales require no background check, some states require no check at gunshows. and if you grind off the microstamp, the stamp would be female, the gun dont fire. Uh, you can grind serial numbers off of guns even now. Those absent laws are not enforceable. The fabrication fantasy is what? Only six states (California, Colorado, Illinois, New York, Oregon and Rhode Island) require universal background checks on allfirearm sales at gun shows, including sales by unlicensed dealers. Three more states (Connecticut, Maryland and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Eight other states (Hawaii, Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, Nebraska and North Carolina) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the gun show loophole. In two states, voters themselves closed the loophole when their legislatures refused to do so. On November 7, 2000, the citizens of Colorado overwhelmingly voted 70% – 30% in favor of Amendment 22, closing the gun show loophole in their state. The referendum followed the tragic shooting at Columbine High School on April 20, 1999 (the guns used in the shooting were purchased from private sellers at Denver gun shows). In Oregon, voters also voted overwhelmingly, 62% – 38%, in favor of Measure 5, effectively closing the gun show loophole in their state. Does anyone think that criminals go to licensed dealers to get their guns? I did mention that private sales between individuals do not require a background check. Again, there is no gun show loophole. Background checks are required for commercial sale of a firearm. If one is selling guns at a gun show; you are in the business of making a profit from gun sales and require a FFL and are required to do the concomitant background checks. When registering for a table at a gun show to sell actual firearms and not accessories a copy of your FFL is very often required so the promoter can't be considered as culpable in promoting an illegal firearm sale. The "gun show loophole" that needs closing was a myth used to scare the gullible. FYI, how about some actual info on whether you need a FFL to sell firearms at a gun show? Hmm? https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download By your own statement; "the guns used in the shooting were purchased from private sellers at Denver gun shows" and not from merchants at the gun show. Why not close the "Craigslist loophole" or the "want ads loophole" as well? Yep, "gun show loophole" is a myth. A gun show is not a "private sale" and in actual practice you will find you will do the required background checks when purchasing a firearm at a gun show. And, if the illegal firearm dealer is working out of the trunk of his car in the parking lot is caught; he will be up on federal charges. Question-I haven't read the links, and I am basing this on what I have seen myself, but this may not be allowed anymore or may be a state-by-state thing, I don't know. But what I always saw as part of the 'gun show loophole' was the number of private individuals, not dealers, that sold guns at gun shows. My ex was always wheeling and dealing anything he could get his hands on, and guns were no exception. We always went to every gun show within 100 miles (which in AL is a lot, lol). And he always went in with a gun that he wanted to sell or trade. I remember rifles and shotguns he would wear slung over his shoulder, with the gun hanging off his back, and a sign telling the make and asking price. We never left a show that he didn't successfully sell or trade. And there were always several people doing that. When we entered the show, he always had to show the gun to the sheriffs booth at the entrance, and they always put a long zip tie through the barrel and out the end, to ensure that it was unloaded and stayed that way. But he didn't have to do any other verification. I knew that for the most part, the 'gun show loophole' was no longer an issue, but I have always seen this aspect of it to be the 'loop-hole' to the fabled 'gun show loophole'. Yes these circumstances were almost always one gun per person, not a whole inventory like a dealer would have, and would not be every person at the show, only some. But there always seemed to be lots of people selling their guns this way, and if this is still permitted, it seems like it is an ideal situation to be able to buy or sell a gun without any checks being made, with a built in client base and/or inventory to choose from. It was guaranteed that if we were looking for a specific type of gun, or one for a specific purpose, we could invariably find that being sold by private individuals at gun shows, the larger the show the more likely it was.

mnottertail -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 12:44:36 PM)
That is the loophole. No different today.

BamaD -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 1:05:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Oh, no that is untrue. private sales require no background check, some states require no check at gunshows. and if you grind off the microstamp, the stamp would be female, the gun dont fire. Uh, you can grind serial numbers off of guns even now. Those absent laws are not enforceable. The fabrication fantasy is what? Only six states (California, Colorado, Illinois, New York, Oregon and Rhode Island) require universal background checks on allfirearm sales at gun shows, including sales by unlicensed dealers. Three more states (Connecticut, Maryland and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Eight other states (Hawaii, Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, Nebraska and North Carolina) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the gun show loophole. In two states, voters themselves closed the loophole when their legislatures refused to do so. On November 7, 2000, the citizens of Colorado overwhelmingly voted 70% – 30% in favor of Amendment 22, closing the gun show loophole in their state. The referendum followed the tragic shooting at Columbine High School on April 20, 1999 (the guns used in the shooting were purchased from private sellers at Denver gun shows). In Oregon, voters also voted overwhelmingly, 62% – 38%, in favor of Measure 5, effectively closing the gun show loophole in their state. Does anyone think that criminals go to licensed dealers to get their guns? I did mention that private sales between individuals do not require a background check. Again, there is no gun show loophole. Background checks are required for commercial sale of a firearm. If one is selling guns at a gun show; you are in the business of making a profit from gun sales and require a FFL and are required to do the concomitant background checks. When registering for a table at a gun show to sell actual firearms and not accessories a copy of your FFL is very often required so the promoter can't be considered as culpable in promoting an illegal firearm sale. The "gun show loophole" that needs closing was a myth used to scare the gullible. FYI, how about some actual info on whether you need a FFL to sell firearms at a gun show? Hmm? https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download By your own statement; "the guns used in the shooting were purchased from private sellers at Denver gun shows" and not from merchants at the gun show. Why not close the "Craigslist loophole" or the "want ads loophole" as well? Yep, "gun show loophole" is a myth. A gun show is not a "private sale" and in actual practice you will find you will do the required background checks when purchasing a firearm at a gun show. And, if the illegal firearm dealer is working out of the trunk of his car in the parking lot is caught; he will be up on federal charges. Question-I haven't read the links, and I am basing this on what I have seen myself, but this may not be allowed anymore or may be a state-by-state thing, I don't know. But what I always saw as part of the 'gun show loophole' was the number of private individuals, not dealers, that sold guns at gun shows. My ex was always wheeling and dealing anything he could get his hands on, and guns were no exception. We always went to every gun show within 100 miles (which in AL is a lot, lol). And he always went in with a gun that he wanted to sell or trade. I remember rifles and shotguns he would wear slung over his shoulder, with the gun hanging off his back, and a sign telling the make and asking price. We never left a show that he didn't successfully sell or trade. And there were always several people doing that. When we entered the show, he always had to show the gun to the sheriffs booth at the entrance, and they always put a long zip tie through the barrel and out the end, to ensure that it was unloaded and stayed that way. But he didn't have to do any other verification. I knew that for the most part, the 'gun show loophole' was no longer an issue, but I have always seen this aspect of it to be the 'loop-hole' to the fabled 'gun show loophole'. Yes these circumstances were almost always one gun per person, not a whole inventory like a dealer would have, and would not be every person at the show, only some. But there always seemed to be lots of people selling their guns this way, and if this is still permitted, it seems like it is an ideal situation to be able to buy or sell a gun without any checks being made, with a built in client base and/or inventory to choose from. It was guaranteed that if we were looking for a specific type of gun, or one for a specific purpose, we could invariably find that being sold by private individuals at gun shows, the larger the show the more likely it was. You live in Jefferson county. I would think that you are familiar with the Bulletin board or something like it. If you and I run into each other at a gun show and I sell you a gun, that is no different than if I advertise said gun in the bulletin board and you answer the add. It is a private sale, not a loophole. Now as already pointed out someone is selling a dozen guns or so every weekend at a gun show the he is already in violation of the law.

mnottertail -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 1:12:14 PM)
And that is the loophole. It is vastly different. Go tear up some tool steel with brass.

Wayward5oul -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 1:29:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You live in Jefferson county. I would think that you are familiar with the Bulletin board or something like it. If you and I run into each other at a gun show and I sell you a gun, that is no different than if I advertise said gun in the bulletin board and you answer the add. It is a private sale, not a loophole. Now as already pointed out someone is selling a dozen guns or so every weekend at a gun show the he is already in violation of the law. I actually have no idea what the bulletin board is. If it is gun related, I haven't been in those circles in a while, which is why I was asking if you could still buy guns privately at gun shows. For all I knew, those laws had changed by now. I do know that you can buy guns online and through ads. But you can't deny the convenience of having several guns available for purview, on hand, in a negotiating situation, which can be closed privately with no record. Much more convenient and attractive way to purchase than answering ads, where the seller may insist on records, where there is less room for negotiating price because it is only the two of you, and you may have to go through this several times before you get just the gun you want. I say 'may' have to do these things. Buying a gun is not like buying a car or furniture. As long as you know that the gun is the model you were looking for, there are less things to consider when buying a used car or furniture then there is buying a gun. But as far as private sells at gun shows, like I said, I have always thought of those as 'loopholes' to the 'gun show loophole' that isn't talked about much.

BamaD -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 2:41:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD You live in Jefferson county. I would think that you are familiar with the Bulletin board or something like it. If you and I run into each other at a gun show and I sell you a gun, that is no different than if I advertise said gun in the bulletin board and you answer the add. It is a private sale, not a loophole. Now as already pointed out someone is selling a dozen guns or so every weekend at a gun show the he is already in violation of the law. I actually have no idea what the bulletin board is. If it is gun related, I haven't been in those circles in a while, which is why I was asking if you could still buy guns privately at gun shows. For all I knew, those laws had changed by now. I do know that you can buy guns online and through ads. But you can't deny the convenience of having several guns available for purview, on hand, in a negotiating situation, which can be closed privately with no record. Much more convenient and attractive way to purchase than answering ads, where the seller may insist on records, where there is less room for negotiating price because it is only the two of you, and you may have to go through this several times before you get just the gun you want. I say 'may' have to do these things. Buying a gun is not like buying a car or furniture. As long as you know that the gun is the model you were looking for, there are less things to consider when buying a used car or furniture then there is buying a gun. But as far as private sells at gun shows, like I said, I have always thought of those as 'loopholes' to the 'gun show loophole' that isn't talked about much. The bulletin board is a magazine where you advertise things you have for sale. Not just guns but furniture used cars video games, any thing, it is basically a printed flea market . True you can buy guns online, but did you know they have to be shipped to a dealer who has to run a background check before he can pass it on to you? You also seem to think that dealers at gun shows don't do background checks, this is not true, when a dealer is at a gun show he has to follow the same rules as he would have to follow if he was in his store, the "Loop Hole" is that, in this state, you don't have to a background check for PRIVATE sales. If that is what you want say so and don't hide behind a fictitious gun show loop hole.

Wayward5oul -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 5:26:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD True you can buy guns online, but did you know they have to be shipped to a dealer who has to run a background check before he can pass it on to you? No, I did not know that. Is the same true when you answer an ad by an individual and meet in person, as I do when I buy something off Craigslist? quote: You also seem to think that dealers at gun shows don't do background checks, this is not true, when a dealer is at a gun show he has to follow the same rules as he would have to follow if he was in his store, the "Loop Hole" is that, in this state, you don't have to a background check for PRIVATE sales. When I included this part in my original post-Yes these circumstances were almost always one gun per person, not a whole inventory like a dealer would have, and would not be every person at the show, only some. But there always seemed to be lots of people selling their guns this way, and if this is still permitted, it seems like it is an ideal situation to be able to buy or sell a gun without any checks being made, with a built in client base and/or inventory to choose from-I was indicating that I know full well that dealers do checks. My point was asking if individuals could still sell without background checks, or did the law extend to all sales at gun shows requiring background checks. quote: If that is what you want say so and don't hide behind a fictitious gun show loop hole I don't hide. I think I was pretty clear in stating the situation and what I did and didn't know. The reason that I refer to it as 'the loophole within the loophole' is because a) the 'gun show loophole' (as I understand it) is reference to when no sales at gun shows required background checks, a situation which no longer is case (as far as I know) b) the fact remains that unchecked sales DO occur at gun shows, providing is is between private individuals, so when people say that you can't buy a gun at a gun show without a background check, they are not addressing the fact that you can, if you look for individuals selling, not dealers. I consider that a 'loophole" that actually does exist I asked a sincere question about something that I used to see, but that might have died out due to changes in law the last few years. No need to automatically suspect that everyone has an ulterior motive if they don't fall into line with your thinking on gun laws. No need to read things into content that is obviously not there.

BamaD -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 5:37:00 PM)
No, I did not know that. Is the same true when you answer an ad by an individual and meet in person, as I do when I buy something off Craigslist? That depends. A If he is going to ship it to you it has to go through a dealer. B If he is going to meet you it depends on the state, comes under each states laws on private transfers. C If I pass a firearm to a friend in Ca I have to get a background check. D No background check is required to transfer a firearm in a private in person sale in Alabama.

BamaD -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 5:39:34 PM)
My point was asking if individuals could still sell without background checks, or did the law extend to all sales at gun shows requiring background checks. No, because the people running the show can't enforce it. Making it a requirement is just a tool for driving gun shows out of business.

mnottertail -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 5:41:06 PM)
Bullshit, welfare patient. If that is the case, the only reason they exist is to deliver arms to criminals. They should be run out of business and charged under RICO and TREASON statutes. You just said that the only way these can exist is as criminal enterprises, and they are FLOURISHING. Right next to law abiding Americans, these goons and thugs are operating with your welfare patient blessings.

BamaD -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 5:45:36 PM)
I don't hide. I think I was pretty clear in stating the situation and what I did and didn't know. The reason that I refer to it as 'the loophole within the loophole' is because a) the 'gun show loophole' (as I understand it) is reference to when no sales at gun shows required background checks, a situation which no longer is case (as far as I know) b) the fact remains that unchecked sales DO occur at gun shows, providing is is between private individuals, so when people say that you can't buy a gun at a gun show without a background check, they are not addressing the fact that you can, if you look for individuals selling, not dealers. I consider that a 'loophole" that actually does exist I didn't mean you as in you personally it was the people who call the fact that you can make private sales at a gun show without a background check a gun show loophole are trying to mislead you. It is not a loophole period, the sales are made in compliance with state law. If for example I sell a firearm away from a gun show and it is legal to do so why should it being at a gun show make any difference. If you want a background check on private sales say that is what you want and don't use it as a weapon against dealers who are doing what they are supposed to.

BamaD -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 5:50:15 PM)
I asked a sincere question about something that I used to see, but that might have died out due to changes in law the last few years. No need to automatically suspect that everyone has an ulterior motive if they don't fall into line with your thinking on gun laws. No need to read things into content that is obviously not there. I apologize if I made it sound like an attack on you, that was not my intent. But people who have access to more information than you are spout obvious lies like not needing a background check are clearly not operating with the intent of letting the people make an informed decision. They want to stop gun shows and limit access to firearms any way they can do it.

mnottertail -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/1/2016 7:25:02 PM)
No, they are not trying to mislead you, welfare patient is trying to mislead you and as always is full of shit. There are many many people at gunshows who are running a fucking ongoing operation in guns. It is a loophole in the law. I vote we seize all guns from anyone who is at a gunshow without an FFL and have them demonstrate that they do not regularly engage in that business. Otherwise, incarcerate them for gun running and terrorism.

Wayward5oul -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/2/2016 11:40:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD No, I did not know that. Is the same true when you answer an ad by an individual and meet in person, as I do when I buy something off Craigslist? That depends. A If he is going to ship it to you it has to go through a dealer. B If he is going to meet you it depends on the state, comes under each states laws on private transfers. C If I pass a firearm to a friend in Ca I have to get a background check. D No background check is required to transfer a firearm in a private in person sale in Alabama. Thank you.

Wayward5oul -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/2/2016 12:02:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD My point was asking if individuals could still sell without background checks, or did the law extend to all sales at gun shows requiring background checks. No, because the people running the show can't enforce it. Making it a requirement is just a tool for driving gun shows out of business. If it was a requirement, it could be done. In 20 years of going to gun shows, if we went with a gun to sell or trade, I never saw a case where we didn't have to first check in with law enforcement to show that the gun was disabled. That could be the starting point for enforcing checks. As far as driving gun shows out of business, I agree that it would be an obstacle to overcome. But if you believe that background checks should be a requirement for gun purchases, then it should be a requirement, period. There are already law enforcement booths present at gun shows, why couldn't they be incorporated as part of the process for individual sellers? It may take money being allocated, state budget, federal budget, gun manufacturers, whatever.

Wayward5oul -> RE: CA attempts backdoor gun ban (11/2/2016 12:32:55 PM)
quote: I didn't mean you as in you personally it was the people who call the fact that you can make private sales at a gun show without a background check a gun show loophole are trying to mislead you. Hence the questions so that I could make sure that my impressions of current laws were correct before I started making suggestions about what I thought should or should not be done. It would be pretty ignorant of me to say that they should make background checks a requirement on private sales as well, if that was already required. God forbid I make queries into the accuracy of my information before stating a position based on that information. And no one is misleading me about anything. This is not a question I asked because of what propaganda anyone else was feeding me; I don't talk about this to others. Just not one of the topics that crop up in my circle anymore. I asked it because of what I was reading on this forum and what I knew based on my own firsthand experiences. quote: It is not a loophole period, the sales are made in compliance with state law. It may be in compliance to state law, but the fact is that when fervent gun rights activists reassure people about sales at gun shows by telling them that dealers are required to do background checks, they often fail to include the fact that individual sellers are not. And the fact is that that is a common occurrence at gun shows. So yes, I consider it a loophole. Going to gun shows as often as we did, we knew many of the dealers by name, and always chatted with them when we saw them. And even they referred to it as a loophole. Not the one that is usually referenced when the general public talks about the gun show loophole, but a loophole nonetheless. quote: If for example I sell a firearm away from a gun show and it is legal to do so why should it being at a gun show make any difference. My point about gun shows is, again, the fact that private sellers, in going to a gun show rather than placing an ad, can reach a much larger population of potential buyers who can check their product out first-hand, negotiate, make the sale, etc...at zero cost, zero inconvenience, compared to placing an ad and the logistics of making a sale off of it. In an otherwise well-regulated environment. That's the difference. quote: If you want a background check on private sales say that is what you want and don't use it as a weapon against dealers who are doing what they are supposed to. You are reading things into my post that simply are not there. How does anything that I said translate as being a weapon against dealers? Every question I had referenced PRIVATE sales between individuals.

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