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ORIGINAL: tamaka

I haven't been here that long.

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ORIGINAL: Greatlilbabygirl

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ORIGINAL: tamaka

I haven't been here that long.

You also don't have a profile. What's up wit dat?

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ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2

We all have to have a profile to comment in the forums. If we put our profile on hide, then when searched for it comes up as "no profile found".

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ORIGINAL: Awareness
I'm not talking about the original thread, I'm talking about the pile-on which began on page 6 because someone dared to defy the group-think which characterises this particular clique of uninformed fucking idiots.

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ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

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ORIGINAL: Alecta
I think the safe spaces should be for those of us who wish to indulge in intellectual freedom without the threats and judgements of the wider public. After all, as amply demonstrated on the internet and college campuses, we are in the minority, prone to attack, and are in general more capable of exercising the necessary discernment to take our pursuits to said rooms than the other groups.

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ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

Yeah, I've bern told that you aren't supposed to hide your profile if you are posting in the forums, but I have done it on occasion. Sometimes this place gets to be too much.

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ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

FR
I have a question for the various participants of this thread. Why does it upset you all so much that tamaka holds the views she does? How does it impact your life? Do you see her and Awareness's views to be somehow a threat to you?

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

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ORIGINAL: Awareness

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

snickers

No, I think you've probably been overdosing on Mars Bars as well.

Unless Im sitting on your face, what I eat has bugger all to do with you...

have a nice day

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
What we have with this 'real man' and 'real woman' stuff, in the eyes of a couple of people here, in which men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive and all else is a travesty, is the same old myth, revamped. It's increasingly desperate; therefore, its adherents need to shout about it ever more loudly and angrily. They absolutely need all the latest bits of cod-science that seems to offer support. They need to assert that most people are like them - 'millions are the same' - in order to underline the 'naturalness' of their preferred buzz. (If it's so common, why do such people come to a specialist kink website, I wonder?)

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About those two terms 'masculine' and 'feminine:

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Ages ago I learned something crucial from feminism and applied it to myself - the principle that I don't have to work at being masculine because I already am masculine. I'm male, so I'm masculine, and that is that.

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I don't have to become enormously fat, grow a beard and own large numbers of guns. I don't have to go on forums and use the words 'fucking' and 'cunt' at prescribed intervals. I don't have to be dominant. I don't have to be heterosexual. I can even look and act like a stereotypical woman some or even all of the time, and I'll *still* be masculine.

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The irony is that without a firm grasp of this essential truth - that a man is already masculine in virtue of his just being male - he's weakened.

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The more he needs clods of myth, claptrap science to shore up his beliefs; the more he feels the need to talk and act in certain ways that are 'manly'; the less he'll actually *be* manly. That stuff doesn't work. Without a clear awareness of the aforementioned essential truth, all that stuff is like a pile of bricks built on a swamp. It's forever in danger of collapse. Exactly the same principle is true of women and being 'feminine' (though they're likely to know this better, partly because they had feminism that freed them; whereas the type of 'masculinism' that seems to be in the ascendancy these days in effect only enslaves men more).

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I say that such masculinism of that sort reinforces men's enslavement because it seems to me so damned furiously *limiting*. Whereas women increasingly take whatever roles give they think will be fun; men are stuffed into the age-old boxes that made their lives so nasty, brutish and short in the past. In a word: weak. The epitome of a man's so called 'strength' in the past was signalled by the level of enthusiasm he had to sign up for the latest war and go off and get himself killed in it. (To this day a lot of men still can't see the fundamental contradiction in this.)

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Lastly, I see on this thread that corny old view, rehashed, that femdoms weaken men, or act as enablers of the weakness in men. If anything, it's the opposite. God. If I have a fear of women at all it's of the sort of woman who'll gently encourage, or seduce, me into her ideal of an oak-tree like 'manly hardness' that'll make me crack and end up in a grave too early - as is still all too common with men. Everything is a competition; we must all be as aggressive as we can be, because there are only winners and losers. It's a miserable, harmful view of how males are/should be, and I'm really glad that I can usually avoid both the men and the women who still need me to buy it.

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ORIGINAL: Awareness

So let me get this straight. You're assuring her that the warm, welcoming kink community is every bit as hostile as a Southern bar where gay-bashing is a moral imperative.

The fact that "show up so we can hurt you" is the way you're thinking really does reflect the kink community's heart of darkness. I think you people have to take a long, hard look at yourselves.

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ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

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ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2

We all have to have a profile to comment in the forums. If we put our profile on hide, then when searched for it comes up as "no profile found".

Yeah, I've bern told that you aren't supposed to hide your profile if you are posting in the forums, but I have done it on occasion. Sometimes this place gets to be too much.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Nope. Didn't say anything about being assured a warm welcome, though I do think from time to time getting that lesson of at least not being intolerant of other people's kinks/lifestyle choices can benefit people. Either that, or at least get to know people as people, rather than deciding you don't immediately dislike them because they happen to be into kink X. Bare minimum? At least get a grasp that just because people have different predispositions than you, doesn't mean that they aren't just trying to live their lives happily, just like you. If their kink isn't having a negative impact on you in some way, (and I get there are areas that cross over here) let them be.

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No, a part of it is that I don't want us going backward. I don't want people going back to the way things were even twenty years ago. There absolutely are posters on this board who are of the age where, they really do remember wondering if they were the only person on the planet that was into the things they were into. Now? You don't really have to be in a populated area to know that you're not singular even if you do feel different. As much of the bad stuff that I do feel is on the net, there are some positives, too, and that's one of them.

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A lot of you M/f (Male Dom, female submissive types) don't have as much of this. It's not that I don't listen when I've heard some female submissives recount what they've run up against from certain other women. Kind of reminds me of the similar stuff that gets thrown around about how some women will give other people shit about 'how dare you *just* be a housewife' because they are flinging poo about their opinion that every woman should have a power career and that kind of guff. At the same time, you also get the advantage of the fact that you blend. If your wife prefers to defer to you, that you are the decision maker in the house, or however you want to phrase it, you're going to have at least some people who aren't going to think you're abnormal. They might think you are old-fashioned, you might be a certain kind of religion, or whatever. Even if people think it might be a bit odd at Kaliko's company Christmas party that she fixes you a plate before she gets her own, half of the people in the room won't give it a second thought.

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(Re: Safe spaces)
This is something I've seen you bitching about that I don't think is cool at all. Just because there is a new term for it, the concept has been around for a long time. If, God forbid, you are ever in the position that you are attending a support group because of something tragic like you have lost a child, that's a so-called safe space. I don't want some dickhead running in there, trying to tell you that your grieving process "isn't that bad". If you're attending something like a closed AA meeting, I'm going to get the f^ck out of your way. If you are not yet ready to sit in a classroom because the curriculum that particular day is discussing the finer points of how our legal system deals with assault cases, and you're not healed yet, get up and leave. At the end of the day, if it's what is right for you, and you have to retreat, I would greatly suggest that you do so for you own well being.

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In my experience, very few women find male bisexuals acceptable
While I couldn't say 'very few,' this is absolutely an area where there is an imbalance. Go have a look at how often female bisexuality is acceptable, but holy shit, it's fire and brimstone if the person happens to be male. Hetero-flexibility is darn near an accepted standard if we're talking about a female submissive who has a male Dominant who wants to get his rocks off because it's exciting to watch her with another woman. There's no flailing and gnashing of teeth if two women are getting it on to make "Master" happy.

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Watch the attitudes change when it's the other way around. Ask yourself an honest question. When was the last time a sexual orientation slur was used on these forums because a woman wants to sexually engage with another woman? Try the same assessment regarding men. It's going to be a whole different ballgame.

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ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

FR
I have a question for the various participants of this thread. Why does it upset you all so much that tamaka holds the views she does? How does it impact your life? Do you see her and Awareness's views to be somehow a threat to you?

I think it's because it comes a little too close to too much that I've seen other people do before. Very much so when the debate points are so similar to what we've seen regarding the sexual orientation debate. Nature vrs nurture, and all of that.

I think it was tamaka who just had that thread last week (?) or so about do people consider their kink a want or a need. Personally, I'm a later in life kinkster. I think most of this stuff happen to be things I do for fun. I don't consider myself 'born this way' or some of the things that other folks do. For some of you, though, I do think it's inherent in some way.

To me, it's just the same as the way *this* country has treated people differently due to sexual orientation. For a long time, we Americans treated people like second class citizens due to sexual orientation. A lot of that was hate-fueled because there really were some het people who were extremely vocal about how they get to love who they want to, have relationships they way they want to, have sex the way they want to, but Dear God, let me make sure you have fewer rights than me for wanting the same, damned thing. Last few decades, we (Americans) are even awesome about establishing laws and ordinances to make sure you're treated differently.

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But, it's ok if I do what I want to do because I happen to have a pair of X chromosomes. If you happen to have a Y chromosome, seeing you as less is justified.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
What we have with this 'real man' and 'real woman' stuff, in the eyes of a couple of people here, in which men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive and all else is a travesty, is the same old myth, revamped. It's increasingly desperate; therefore, its adherents need to shout about it ever more loudly and angrily. They absolutely need all the latest bits of cod-science that seems to offer support. They need to assert that most people are like them - 'millions are the same' - in order to underline the 'naturalness' of their preferred buzz. (If it's so common, why do such people come to a specialist kink website, I wonder?)

Two people have a worldview - one which is supported by science - and the special snowflakes in this forum have an implicit need to shout them down. This isn't about shouting it from the treetops, it's about discussing it in a casual conversation without having a bunch of emotional children reacting like their favourite toy has been stolen.

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About those two terms 'masculine' and 'feminine:

Yes? I'm betting you haven't thought this through.

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Ages ago I learned something crucial from feminism and applied it to myself - the principle that I don't have to work at being masculine because I already am masculine. I'm male, so I'm masculine, and that is that.

Part of the problem that I have with you "gender is a social construct" fruitcakes is that your own alleged beliefs lack internal consistency.

You claim that you are "male", therefore you're "masculine", but there's just one problem with these claims. You also claim gender is a social construct.

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The other problem is that your argument is facile and dishonest. The concept of "being a man" occurs in many societies and refers to the - sadly absent in our societies - rites of passage which were an essential part of the psycho-social development of teenage boys. It was a socially sanctioned way of - in Jungian terms - slaying the dragon that is the mother complex. It marked the leaving behind of childish things and the shouldering of those uniquely masculine adult responsibilities. Responsibilities such as caring for your family, protecting them and your tribe, doing the hard things which needed to be done.

Your issue is that you want to take the easy way out. You refuse to acknowledge that manhood is a part of social acceptance, that it has implications beyond your own self-aggrandisation. You want to simply call yourself a man without actually doing anything to earn the title.

Yes, yes ... I read Robert Bly's Iron John when it came out, too. There are these rituals (or were, until present-day advanced socieities, when they came to be lacking, according to Bly - and for very good reasons according to his critics ) ... and they varied across the world. They were more than just the Jungian 'slaying of the dragon', though ... and the 'mother complex' wasn't wholly defined as a negative thing. Though ... you really want to invoke Carl Jung after just having trumpeted the supposed 'scientific support' for your views? Seriously? I mean, I'm something of a fan of Jung ... but, bloody hell, even his mentor, Freud, was being ripped to shreds as a 'scientist' within decades of his death, and Jung never had Freud's clout.

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Strong teens join gangs because they are the only social unit in Western societies which engage in rites of passage. The lack of rites of passage in Western societies has thus caused multiple social problems, with one being men such as yourself who compromise their masculinity in their quest for female acceptance. The woman is the centre of your social existence and thus your masculinity is warped to that end.

The last sentence is of course simply prejudiced nonsense. As for the rest: Get real. Teen boys join gangs and end up screwing up at school and frequently falling into the arms of the police. Gangs enforce and reinforce behaviour. The individual kid who doesn't actually want to be a violent thug is bullied by peer group pressure into being just that. The average gang-member is not more free and more individual, he's less so on both counts. (On the other teenage boys who group together, work together, join clubs ... *that* is different. Did your concept of 'gang' include that?) Even then, though, in order to become authentic as oneself, the teenage boy eventually has to leave the gang in order to finish growing up.

[

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I don't have to become enormously fat, grow a beard and own large numbers of guns. I don't have to go on forums and use the words 'fucking' and 'cunt' at prescribed intervals. I don't have to be dominant. I don't have to be heterosexual. I can even look and act like a stereotypical woman some or even all of the time, and I'll *still* be masculine.

No, what you have to do is man up and behave like a fucking man does. Manhood is about behaviour, about choices, about doing the difficult thing instead of hiding behind the skirts of gender-obsessed women in academia.

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The irony is that without a firm grasp of this essential truth - that a man is already masculine in virtue of his just being male - he's weakened.

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Honestly you gender weirdos are so easy to take apart, your arguments are just such childish nonsense. Should I even mention that if your stance fails to explain why trans folk attempt to mimic the BIOLOGICAL aspects of the opposite gender? Surely, all they need to do is declare themselves male or female and then - by your logic - they magically are male or female.

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I say that such masculinism of that sort reinforces men's enslavement because it seems to me so damned furiously *limiting*. Whereas women increasingly take whatever roles give they think will be fun; men are stuffed into the age-old boxes that made their lives so nasty, brutish and short in the past. In a word: weak. The epitome of a man's so called 'strength' in the past was signalled by the level of enthusiasm he had to sign up for the latest war and go off and get himself killed in it. (To this day a lot of men still can't see the fundamental contradiction in this.)

Your contempt for the men who fought for your freedom is one of the reasons why you're truly a vile piece of shit. I trust this "I will never defend my family" attitude of yours will be something you will convey to any woman before becoming involved with her. It would only be fair in order to let her see what kind of non-man she's dealing with.

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Lastly, I see on this thread that corny old view, rehashed, that femdoms weaken men, or act as enablers of the weakness in men. If anything, it's the opposite. God. If I have a fear of women at all it's of the sort of woman who'll gently encourage, or seduce, me into her ideal of an oak-tree like 'manly hardness' that'll make me crack and end up in a grave too early - as is still all too common with men. Everything is a competition; we must all be as aggressive as we can be, because there are only winners and losers. It's a miserable, harmful view of how males are/should be, and I'm really glad that I can usually avoid both the men and the women who still need me to buy it.

Of course you have a fear of women - you've not yet learned to treat them as human beings.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
A, firstly, you're not in a position to talk about people 'acting like emotional children'. You can't get through a post on almost anything without getting emotional. Your posts are full of anger. That's why they're so replete with 'fuckings', etc, etc. Almost everything you say here is a 'shouting down'.

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You'd lose the bet. My point is that they're social constructs and are in need of *deconstruction*, because that's the only route towards proper freedom and the proper power that comes of being oneself. 'Masculine' applies simply because I want it to. 'Feminine' could also apply. *Neither* could apply. This is because they're made up terms. They don't matter and have no relevance to what I am and what I want to be. Again, you're not grasping the essence of what I'm saying - or you're pretending that you're not.

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Yes, yes ... I read Robert Bly's Iron John when it came out, too. There are these rituals (or were, until present-day advanced socieities, when they came to be lacking, according to Bly - and for very good reasons according to his critics ) ... and they varied across the world. They were more than just the Jungian 'slaying of the dragon', though ... and the 'mother complex' wasn't wholly defined as a negative thing. Though ... you really want to invoke Carl Jung after just having trumpeted the supposed 'scientific support' for your views? Seriously? I mean, I'm something of a fan of Jung ... but, bloody hell, even his mentor, Freud, was being ripped to shreds as a 'scientist' within decades of his death, and Jung never had Freud's clout.

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Strong teens join gangs because they are the only social unit in Western societies which engage in rites of passage. The lack of rites of passage in Western societies has thus caused multiple social problems, with one being men such as yourself who compromise their masculinity in their quest for female acceptance. The woman is the centre of your social existence and thus your masculinity is warped to that end.

The last sentence is of course simply prejudiced nonsense. As for the rest: Get real. Teen boys join gangs and end up screwing up at school and frequently falling into the arms of the police. Gangs enforce and reinforce behaviour. The individual kid who doesn't actually want to be a violent thug is bullied by peer group pressure into being just that. The average gang-member is not more free and more individual, he's less so on both counts. (On the other teenage boys who group together, work together, join clubs ... *that* is different. Did your concept of 'gang' include that?) Even then, though, in order to become authentic as oneself, the teenage boy eventually has to leave the gang in order to finish growing up.

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Oh cut out the 'fuckings', A. Those alone are a dead giveaway of your own rigid and blinkered idea of 'masculinity'. You only use them to suggest that you're suitably aggressive, forthright, strong and wearily angry at those who disagree with your leadership in this (as indeed apparently all) debates. As for the rest: no, I don't have to 'man up' (except in the sense of being who I am) ... and even if I did, you'd not be able to tell whether or not I'd 'manned up' because your idea of masculinity isn't objective, and sure as hell isn't mine.

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Actually, they don't ... well, apart from you and RM. What are you saying to me, A? Is this a version of 'Peon - Aha! Your view on masculinity might work in practice - but does it work in *theory*?' In the real world, outside of your books, I go to BDSM clubs and mix with maledoms, malesubs, homosexual men and women, TVs and TGs. None of them has ever made the slightest noise at me about 'finding me wanting in manliness'. This is because they're *grown up*. They don't have teenage hang ups any more.

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ORIGINAL: Awareness
Honestly you gender weirdos are so easy to take apart, your arguments are just such childish nonsense. Should I even mention that if your stance fails to explain why trans folk attempt to mimic the BIOLOGICAL aspects of the opposite gender? Surely, all they need to do is declare themselves male or female and then - by your logic - they magically are male or female.

God, A. Can you be this dense? Have you seriously not understood the most basic thing that I've said? Or are you putting it on? Either way, I just don't get you. And ... I've near run out of interest in getting you, too.

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Wow, you really are an ugly little man, aren't you?

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What a disgusting low-life kind of a reach that was.

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I'm wearing a poppy as I write. Why do you think that is?

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Yes, people fight to defend their families. My grandfather did. My father fought, in his own way, against the IRA.

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But they also have to fight resist being so weak as to let themselves be bullshitted to about 'manly notions of fighting' by politicians whose motivations all too often stink of other agendas entirely, then get herded into training camps to fight a war that does not need to be fought.

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Presumably you've heard of arguments to that effect in relation to wars?

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Oh please. An avowed sexist telling me that I don't know how to treat women as human beings. That's too rich. Also - this, from someone who has spent a big portion of this thread barking at them as though they're all dangerous medusas and harpies?

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

FR
I have a question for the various participants of this thread. Why does it upset you all so much that tamaka holds the views she does? How does it impact your life? Do you see her and Awareness's views to be somehow a threat to you?

Wow. Precisely the opposite way around, from what I've seen on reading this nasty, ugly little thread.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

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ORIGINAL: Awareness

So let me get this straight. You're assuring her that the warm, welcoming kink community is every bit as hostile as a Southern bar where gay-bashing is a moral imperative.

The fact that "show up so we can hurt you" is the way you're thinking really does reflect the kink community's heart of darkness. I think you people have to take a long, hard look at yourselves.

I think this is where I left off.

Nope. Didn't say anything about being assured a warm welcome, though I do think from time to time getting that lesson of at least not being intolerant of other people's kinks/lifestyle choices can benefit people. Either that, or at least get to know people as people, rather than deciding you don't immediately dislike them because they happen to be into kink X. Bare minimum? At least get a grasp that just because people have different predispositions than you, doesn't mean that they aren't just trying to live their lives happily, just like you. If their kink isn't having a negative impact on you in some way...