RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity....

RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (Full Version)

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Awareness -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 9:07:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML What are you saying? Liberals are tolerant, conservatives are not? No, that viewpoint is Leftist propaganda. Not in this context, asshole. After i reprimanded Thermy for using my words as a spring board for his racist comments correlating 'certain people" and unemployment. He replied that he didn't know I was that much of a Lib. Hence my reply was super valid when I asked him if he meant Libs were tolerent and Trocks were not. His idea; not mine. You had no clue about the nature of the conversation and you seized upon my question as if it were I stating the proposition. I WAS NOT. So, gather up your parachute and jump back out again and please stfu when you do not know what the fuck you are talking about. No, that's a revisionist reinterpretation of the conversation and you're a liar. You mentioned David Berkowitz and Termy replied saying the whole notion of criminal proclivities opens up a can of worms which defies political correctness. And he's largely correct. For example, it's perfectly acceptable to suggest that serial killers are almost always white - as people here have done already - except the numbers reveal that to be a racist viewpoint. However if you try and tie any other aspects of criminal behaviour to race or ethnicity, there's a chorus of liberal ideologues who will accuse you of being racist. That is a prime example of political correctness. White heterosexual male, bad. Everyone else, good. The victim-hood totem-pole in action. You responded explicitly to him on the notion of criminal proclivities and race. He did not mention unemployment and you claiming you responded to that is a bald-faced lie. You did nothing of the sort. His response to you was on the basis of you accusing him of being racist because he suggested that correlations between racially-linked genotypes and criminal behaviour may exist. Instead of challenging him to supply evidence, you simply engage in the usual Leftist name-calling. That's when he said he had no idea you were a such a liberal. His statement was a response to the usual Leftist reversion to identity politics and name-calling over factual discussion. Your claim that this meant "Liberals are tolerant, conservatives are not" was thus an example of a liberal fucktard using propaganda to claim moral superiority. And that was why my comment was relevant, you dishonest, disingenuous, lying weasel.

vincentML -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 10:57:36 AM)
quote: You mentioned David Berkowitz and Termy replied saying the whole notion of criminal proclivities opens up a can of worms Yeah, I made a mistake. But it was a mistake without distinction. Racists use either education status or criminality to slander people of color. My point remains the same. Fuck off.

Awareness -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 11:53:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: You mentioned David Berkowitz and Termy replied saying the whole notion of criminal proclivities opens up a can of worms Yeah, I made a mistake. But it was a mistake without distinction. Racists use either education status or criminality to slander people of color. My point remains the same. Fuck off. No, you decided he was a racist, then made up your own excuse for the way you feel. Perusing Termy's earlier stuff appears to indicate he's more worried about the Jews controlling the banks (I'm paraphrasing here) than he is about people of color. Regardless, your problem is that people of color have exceptionally high rates of crime. To counter his assertions, you should be pointing out that crime is committed by an underclass, that the justice system does appear to suffer from systemic bias and that many African-American communities suffer from limited opportunities for employment and advancement. However, you would also have to acknowledge that the high proportion of single mothers in the African American community contributes to the crime rate, (children raised by single mothers have increased risks for a range of negative social outcomes) and that African American men and women can counter this by either using contraception or doing their best to ensure their children grow up in a two-parent family. Still, let's face it - you'd rather express your rage than actually have a discussion, wouldn't you. After all, Termy is just a proxy for all the white people who've done you wrong, right?

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 12:00:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: Yeah what scared me about it most wasn't so much being told the whole "no such thing as race", cause whatever, maybe I'm wrong or something. I still think race is akin to breed and that a lot of humans are just 'mutts' and so you can't really tell what race they belong to without doing genetic testing, just like you can't tell which breeds the average street dog stems from without genetic testing. But again, maybe I'm wrong on that, so fine, I'll go with what the professor says for the purpose of the class, I'm there to 'learn' after all. But being told, in a college class, that merely questioning the professor's views, and bringing up a (in my opinion logical) argument to back up your own views, will you'll get a failing grade for doing so???? Not being corrected, not being proven wrong, not being told that "we need to move on from this argument because of a lack of time, but we'll discuss it after class", but being told plain and simple: you are not allowed to present this view point in front of the other students or we'll fail you for the course. I can appreciate your feeling that way - I'm sure many would be taken aback. This article goes some way to explaining where he was coming from, I think .... How does an explanation for what might have been his position explain to me where he's coming from? My issue with him wasn't his position, my issue with him was the fact that he's a college professor who, instead of teaching the class, told us: because I said so, and if you ask questions about why I say so, I will fail you! Comparing racial believes with the Easter Bunny is ludicrous, considering that the average person on the street very much believes in race. We've been told our entire lives that race is a thing. Thus, if the academics have decided that the common folk are wrong on this matter, a college professor would need to expect every student who walks into his class room to hold incorrect believes on the matter, and be ready to educate them differently. That education never happening is what my beef with the entire thing is... instead we got told "Thou shalt repeat this without thought or inquiry because I told you to.". As a result not a single student taken the class whom I talked to otherwise learned a thing. Every one of them left the class feeling like they were forced to regurgitate a dogma that was obviously incorrect and politically motivated - after all, if it was founded in truth questions would have been permissible, and the professor would have been able to logically defend his position to us. The fact that neither happened or were publicly allowed, made every student I talked to conclude they were being fed a lie. I deliberately avoided taking any kind of political, or gender studies, etc class because I was worried about that kind of attitude: not allowing any question or debate deviating from the approved dogma... but I wasn't ready for it at all in a science class.

PeonForHer -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 1:00:39 PM)
quote: How does an explanation for what might have been his position explain to me where he's coming from? It doesn't - it only offers a possibility. Hey, don't shoot the messenger, Ishtar! I was trained as a teacher. The whole point was that you take your students from where they are to where they need to go in their heads. I find this professor's method questionable.

tweakabelle -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 1:15:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: How does an explanation for what might have been his position explain to me where he's coming from? It doesn't - it only offers a possibility. Hey, don't shoot the messenger, Ishtar! I was trained as a teacher. The whole point was that you take your students from where they are to where they need to go in their heads. I find this professor's method questionable. Yes. It would have been better for all concerned if the Professor had allowed a discussion on the issue of race to occur there and then, or else scheduled an occasion to do so. The facts of the matter - the science has long ago abandoned a concept of biologically-based race - could then have been put to the students, assuming the teacher had done their preparation properly, and the matter put to bed satisfactorily. My students are taught that there no sacred cows, that any position can be challenged provided the proponent does the research and puts a coherent academically sound case forward. That is the approach I was taught when I was an undergrad too. My experience is that students in today's world have little tolerance for sexist racist or homophobic views and those advancing such views are very quickly made aware of this by other students who don't appreciate having their time wasted by bigots.

PeonForHer -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 1:16:31 PM)
quote: Still, let's face it - you'd rather express your rage than actually have a discussion, wouldn't you. After all, Termy is just a proxy for all the white people who've done you wrong, right? Awareness, you have once again fucked up a discussion - which was a good one, till now - with your completely unnecessary level of aggression. It's leagues beyond hypocritical for you ever to talk of anyone else 'expressing rage rather than actually having a discussion'. Please, for once: stow it.

Awareness -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 2:04:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar How does an explanation for what might have been his position explain to me where he's coming from? My issue with him wasn't his position, my issue with him was the fact that he's a college professor who, instead of teaching the class, told us: because I said so, and if you ask questions about why I say so, I will fail you! Comparing racial believes with the Easter Bunny is ludicrous, considering that the average person on the street very much believes in race. We've been told our entire lives that race is a thing. Thus, if the academics have decided that the common folk are wrong on this matter, a college professor would need to expect every student who walks into his class room to hold incorrect believes on the matter, and be ready to educate them differently. That education never happening is what my beef with the entire thing is... instead we got told "Thou shalt repeat this without thought or inquiry because I told you to.". As a result not a single student taken the class whom I talked to otherwise learned a thing. Every one of them left the class feeling like they were forced to regurgitate a dogma that was obviously incorrect and politically motivated - after all, if it was founded in truth questions would have been permissible, and the professor would have been able to logically defend his position to us. The fact that neither happened or were publicly allowed, made every student I talked to conclude they were being fed a lie. You know, there's a certain irony in you having this discussion with Peon because he's guilty of exactly the same approach. He's openly stated that he would fail any student taking his 'class' if their response to the question 'What is feminism" was anything other than a recitation of dogma. So the class he allegedly 'teaches' has pretty much the same approach and reflects exactly the same politically based ideology. quote: I deliberately avoided taking any kind of political, or gender studies, etc class because I was worried about that kind of attitude: not allowing any question or debate deviating from the approved dogma... but I wasn't ready for it at all in a science class. It's an unscientific approach which is infesting British academia, but the ongoing dominance of liberal ideology in the US means that it's also compromised academic standards over here as well.

Awareness -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 2:06:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: Still, let's face it - you'd rather express your rage than actually have a discussion, wouldn't you. After all, Termy is just a proxy for all the white people who've done you wrong, right? Awareness, you have once again fucked up a discussion - which was a good one, till now - with your completely unnecessary level of aggression. It's leagues beyond hypocritical for you ever to talk of anyone else 'expressing rage rather than actually having a discussion'. Please, for once: stow it. Right, so your idea of a good discussion is where a liberal shithead calls someone a racist, is it? I don't know which is worse. Your stupidity or the pompous arrogance it undermines. I realise that most of what I say flies right above your head Peon, so stick to discussions which don't make you feel inferior, lad. Any time you want to remove your pompous head from between the cheeks of your ass, you can join in - just be prepared to do some research so you can try and keep up. You're welcome, Nancy.

vincentML -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 2:11:21 PM)
quote: No, you decided he was a racist, then made up your own excuse for the way you feel. Perusing Termy's earlier stuff appears to indicate he's more worried about the Jews controlling the banks (I'm paraphrasing here) than he is about people of color. Jews, Blacks, Ethnics, Feminists, Liberals, its all of a piece, the need for narrow minded, insecure people to put others in categories. Does that give you the illusion of control and reduce your fears? quote: Regardless, your problem is that people of color have exceptionally high rates of crime. No, that's not exactly true. The number of arrests reported in the FBI arrest statistics in 2014 all crimes were committed at a rate of 69.4% by whites and 27.8% by blacks. By comparison, however, the incarcerated male population in 2009 was composed of 32% whites and 37% blacks. Blacks, Puerto Rican Americans, and American Indians have the highest rates of incarceration. Additionally, until recently 24% of African Americans were still living below the poverty level while only 10.9% of whites suffered that status. Here you come along and suggest that blacks should solve the problem of single mother households by employing condoms. Utter blame-the-victim trash talk from you in the face of massive disparity of Justice and Wealth. You place people into classic discriminatory categories of race, gender, and politics and then try to point a finger of blame at them in order to comfort and justify your white male privilege. INCARCERATION CRIME BY RACE

PeonForHer -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 2:13:04 PM)
quote: My students are taught that there no sacred cows, that any position can be challenged provided the proponent does the research and puts a coherent academically sound case forward. That is the approach I was taught when I was an undergrad too. My experience is that students in today's world have little tolerance for sexist racist or homophobic views and those advancing such views are very quickly made aware of this by other students who don't appreciate having their time wasted by bigots. Yep. Lord, though: can you think of a finer example for teaching the topic of just how badly science can get it so wrong for so long? I think I'd have actually pounced on Ishtar's view as a way into quite a lively sort of debate. Proper student-centred learning, there.

Edwird -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 2:50:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Yeah, I made a mistake. But it was a mistake without distinction. Racists use either education status or criminality to slander people of color. My point remains the same. Fuck off. No, you decided he was a racist, No, actually Termy has described himself as a racist on a semi-regular basis, and makes no bones about it, uses the n word just often enough to make the point, etc. Anybody here paying attention is aware of it, he doesn't hide it, lots of people (including myself, occasionally) still converse with him, but, like or dislike, everybody's used to it. Again, for those paying attention.

PeonForHer -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 3:12:55 PM)
quote: No, actually Termy has described himself as a racist on a semi-regular basis, and makes no bones about it, uses the n word just often enough to make the point, etc. Anybody here paying attention is aware of it, he doesn't hide it, lots of people (including myself, occasionally) still converse with him, but, like or dislike, everybody's used to it. Again, for those paying attention. And besides, he's not struck me as a thin-skinned man.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 3:17:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness You know, there's a certain irony in you having this discussion with Peon because he's guilty of exactly the same approach. He's openly stated that he would fail any student taking his 'class' if their response to the question 'What is feminism" was anything other than a recitation of dogma. So the class he allegedly 'teaches' has pretty much the same approach and reflects exactly the same politically based ideology. Yeah I know. It's why I growled at him when he made his whole "here's where your teacher was coming from" post. My professor was coming from a place where he was forced to teach us a position that he intellectually could not defend, and thus, when he got challenged, he panicked and pulled a power move to avoid having to admit that in front of the entire class.

Awareness -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 3:24:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: No, you decided he was a racist, then made up your own excuse for the way you feel. Perusing Termy's earlier stuff appears to indicate he's more worried about the Jews controlling the banks (I'm paraphrasing here) than he is about people of color. Jews, Blacks, Ethnics, Feminists, Liberals, its all of a piece, the need for narrow minded, insecure people to put others in categories. Does that give you the illusion of control and reduce your fears? It does nothing to change the fact that you decided he was a racist and then made up your own rationalisation for why that assessment was justified. Now you're dissembling because you think that'll distract me. You're mistaken, it won't. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness Regardless, your problem is that people of color have exceptionally high rates of crime. No, that's not exactly true. No, it is EXACTLY true. African Americans commit - and are arrested for - crimes at substantially higher rates than whites or hispanics. Particularly homicides. The number of arrests reported in the FBI arrest statistics in 2014 all crimes were committed at a rate of 69.4% by whites and 27.8% by blacks. Two problems there. That 69.4% includes Hispanics. Given that white Americans constitute 72% of the population, this number is representative of their percentage of the population. Whereas African Americans constitute 12.6% percent of the population and commit 27.8% of the crime - more than double the rate of white crime. It becomes even worse when you consider violent crime. When it comes to murder and non-negligent manslaughter, African Americans manage to commit more crimes than the white population - which means they're doing so at more than 5 times the rate of white people. Forcible rape, they commit at 3 times the rate of white people. Robbery at 8 times the rate of white people. You can argue there are reasons for this, but trying to pretend it has absolutely nothing to do with the culture of black communities is irresponsible. Explain to me how limited employment opportunities makes you 3 times more likely to rape a woman. quote: Here you come along and suggest that blacks should solve the problem of single mother households by employing condoms. Utter blame-the-victim trash talk from you in the face of massive disparity of Justice and Wealth. Well I suppose you could always sit there playing victim and blaming the white man while your communities fail to get any better. Let us know how that works out for you. quote: You place people into classic discriminatory categories of race, gender, and politics and then try to point a finger of blame at them in order to comfort and justify your white male privilege. You're the one making reference to crime demographics by race. Why are you using statistics which you claim are discriminatory?

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 3:37:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness The number of arrests reported in the FBI arrest statistics in 2014 all crimes were committed at a rate of 69.4% by whites and 27.8% by blacks. Two problems there. That 69.4% includes Hispanics. Given that white Americans constitute 72% of the population, this number is representative of their percentage of the population. Whereas African Americans constitute 12.6% percent of the population and commit 27.8% of the crime - more than double the rate of white crime. Do you have any statistics on whether the same holds true in other countries? In Canada, Europe, the UK, does the same thing hold about them committing a disproportional percentage of the crimes against their per capital representation in the overall population, or is this a typically American issue?

blnymph -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 3:52:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness The number of arrests reported in the FBI arrest statistics in 2014 all crimes were committed at a rate of 69.4% by whites and 27.8% by blacks. Two problems there. That 69.4% includes Hispanics. Given that white Americans constitute 72% of the population, this number is representative of their percentage of the population. Whereas African Americans constitute 12.6% percent of the population and commit 27.8% of the crime - more than double the rate of white crime. Do you have any statistics on whether the same holds true in other countries? In Canada, Europe, the UK, does the same thing hold about them committing a disproportional percentage of the crimes against their per capital representation in the overall population, or is this a typically American issue? Even those statistics of races as such are a typically American issue. There may be similar statistics in some European countries but not identical in those categories.

bounty44 -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 3:56:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness The number of arrests reported in the FBI arrest statistics in 2014 all crimes were committed at a rate of 69.4% by whites and 27.8% by blacks. Two problems there. That 69.4% includes Hispanics. Given that white Americans constitute 72% of the population, this number is representative of their percentage of the population. Whereas African Americans constitute 12.6% percent of the population and commit 27.8% of the crime - more than double the rate of white crime. Do you have any statistics on whether the same holds true in other countries? In Canada, Europe, the UK, does the same thing hold about them committing a disproportional percentage of the crimes against their per capital representation in the overall population, or is this a typically American issue? that's a great question---and the underlying premise would be, if theres a significant difference in the statistics, what then is the essential difference between the black populations that gives rise to any disparity.

Awareness -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 4:23:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness The number of arrests reported in the FBI arrest statistics in 2014 all crimes were committed at a rate of 69.4% by whites and 27.8% by blacks. Two problems there. That 69.4% includes Hispanics. Given that white Americans constitute 72% of the population, this number is representative of their percentage of the population. Whereas African Americans constitute 12.6% percent of the population and commit 27.8% of the crime - more than double the rate of white crime. Do you have any statistics on whether the same holds true in other countries? In Canada, Europe, the UK, does the same thing hold about them committing a disproportional percentage of the crimes against their per capital representation in the overall population, or is this a typically American issue? As I've said before, crime is committed by an underclass. Therefore your demographics tend to be tainted by social reality. I think it's exceptionally unwise to infer from American statistics that people of African descent are more predisposed to crime. I do know that in New Zealand - where I spent the last dozen or so years - that child abuse statistics are extremely politically incorrect. That is, the predominant abusers of children in New Zealand are Maori, although - again - this is also tainted by the reality that child abuse rates are linked to social deprivation. Interestingly enough, New Zealand doesn't really use the word "race" at all. All government documents refer to "ethnicity" and the major categories are generally "New Zealand European", "Maori" or "Pacific Islander" with a smattering of "Chinese", "Taiwanese" thrown in. Aboriginal Australians are imprisoned at astonishingly high rates relative to everyone else - something like 14 times the non-indigenous rate. The crime rate is also similarly high. The commonality in all this is a subjugated black or brown population with high crime rate and limited employment prospects. To progress, establishing the root causes is critical, however it's extremely difficult to do that if people deny the crime rates exist in the first place. I have no idea what the demographics are like in the UK, but I do know that some socialist states such as Sweden have stopped reporting the ethnicity of crime perpetrators for what can only be described as politically correct reasons. I expect Europe's picture in the recent past is going to be complicated by the Islamic migrant influx.

PeonForHer -> RE: Of species, race, and ethnicity.... (11/8/2016 5:06:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness You know, there's a certain irony in you having this discussion with Peon because he's guilty of exactly the same approach. He's openly stated that he would fail any student taking his 'class' if their response to the question 'What is feminism" was anything other than a recitation of dogma. So the class he allegedly 'teaches' has pretty much the same approach and reflects exactly the same politically based ideology. Yeah I know. It's why I growled at him when he made his whole "here's where your teacher was coming from" post. My professor was coming from a place where he was forced to teach us a position that he intellectually could not defend, and thus, when he got challenged, he panicked and pulled a power move to avoid having to admit that in front of the entire class. Well, it's true. Feminism just isn't what Awareness and respectmen keep barking that it is. A student who followed what Awareness says would simply fail the exam. It will be of no use whatsoever that the student tell the examiner that if he/she disagrees, his/her opinion is based on 'political correctness/indoctrination/the examiner's utter failings as a human being, etc, etc. Examiners don't respond well to candidates who tell them that they're failures in all kinds of ways for not agreeing with what examiners actually know. That only works on forums, if it works at all. Awareness would know how this works had he been to university. What can I say? I'd never want my students to fail their exams because I've taught them crap. What teacher would?

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