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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/27/2016 4:44:43 PM

bounty44

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I was also reminded of him and his claim that the 2nd was created to help slave owners.

raaaaaaaaaacist! we are all such raaaaaaaaacists!

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/27/2016 4:50:57 PM

MasterJaguar01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

of course, how inconvenient of me to ask.

then all you and the huffington post are left (no pun intended) to do is to put your raaaacist spin on it.

sorry your quote notwithstanding, the idea that the electoral college somehow benefitted southern states is a far cry from saying it was invented or even adopted for that purpose.

with no real evidence (all you did there was post a quote that's ubiquitous on the sites claiming the reason for the electoral college is because of slavery), you want to ascribe sinister purposes to our founders---and then of course also charge them with being secretive about it to boot.

im fond of saying this to vile critter parts: if this were an argument for a paper you were turning in at the college level, it wouldn't pass muster.

some of us weren't voted "most gullible" in our senior classes.

Nonsense and more nonsense.

1) You think that by labeling me indirectly as a liberal (or on the "left") you can somehow replace facts with your personal ideology. It won't work. I could not care less about liberals, or liberal ideology.
2) A "raaacist" spin? You brought up race. Not me. Slavery was a fact of life at the time. Call it racist, or whatever helps you sleep at night. It was an institution that southern states (and Slaveowners) protected at all costs.
3) Just stop the nonsense about our Founders. They were great men, to be sure. But they were human and subject to the same corruption of power as anyone else. And yes, they amended the constitution to benefit their own business interests, and were secretive about it to boot (oh! the horror!)

You are certainly the MOST gullible if you believe the stated purpose in Constitutional Convention.

If that were truly the purpose than:

1) Only the # of House reps would = 1 elector. Not House Reps + Senators
2) The 3/5 rule for slaves would be removed (since slaves couldn't vote)

If #1, and #2 were true, you would have a college of the "most learned men" which most accurately represented the population. Obviously, they had another purpose in mind.

There are dozens and dozens of articles on the subject.

I like the TIME article: (Yes such a LIBERAL rag)

http://time.com/4558510/electoral-college-history-slavery/
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/electoral-college-slavery-constitution/

< Message edited by MasterJaguar01 -- 12/27/2016 4:56:35 PM >

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/27/2016 7:25:53 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
http://conservative-headlines.com/2014/04/evidence-of-massive-black-voter-fraud-uncovered-in-alabama/

There were more voters on the rolls than voting age adults in 4 counties in Alabama.

That means:

registration

No links to any proof of claims, and no links to proof that there were any fraudulent votes cast. There could have been 1 more person on the rolls than voting age adults in each of those counties. How do we know? We don't.

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/27/2016 7:34:25 PM

MasterJaguar01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
http://conservative-headlines.com/2014/04/evidence-of-massive-black-voter-fraud-uncovered-in-alabama/

There were more voters on the rolls than voting age adults in 4 counties in Alabama.

That means:
1. Voter registration fraud, or
2. US Census estimates for voting age adults in those counties was underestimated, or
3. Voter rolls that aren't up to date.

No links to any proof of claims, and no links to proof that there were any fraudulent votes cast. There could have been 1 more person on the rolls than voting age adults in each of those counties. How do we know? We don't.

As I said: ZERO evidence

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/27/2016 8:19:54 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
http://conservative-headlines.com/2014/04/evidence-of-massive-black-voter-fraud-uncovered-in-alabama/

There were more voters on the rolls than voting age adults in 4 counties in Alabama.

That means:
1. Voter registration fraud, or
2. US Census estimates for voting age adults in those counties was underestimated, or
3. Voter rolls that aren't up to date.

No links to any proof of claims, and no links to proof that there were any fraudulent votes cast. There could have been 1 more person on the rolls than voting age adults in each of those counties. How do we know? We don't.

Do you know what counties those were?
I did some quick research and is seems that it is simply a matter of getting dead people or those who have moved while there was an excess of people registered to vote this was not reflected in the votes cast.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 12/27/2016 8:31:39 PM >

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/27/2016 8:59:47 PM

DaddySatyr

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How quickly we forget the under-cover videographers being told by volunteers at DNC registration sites things like: "Oh! You're still registered in the state where you used to live? I guess you could vote their, too."

It's a fact: Voter fraud exists. The lefties always say "It's nominal" (when they finally admit it), but the truth is (as I pointed out in another thread): One vote could, theoretically command 55 Electoral college votes. When that happens and it winds up going for anyone but a Dumbocrat, we'll get cries from the left about voter fraud and voter ID laws.

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 12/27/2016 9:30:08 PM >

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/27/2016 9:01:41 PM

Termyn8or

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FR

The Alabama discrepancy could easily have been caused by people moving into the state since the last census. Don't believe anyone would move down there ? Well who moves north to retire ? And I still maintain that SS retirement benefits are counted in what a state "gets" from the feds when the liberals claim them to be "welfare states".

Nobody has been able to offer any proof to the contrary. I myself looked for it and found nothing that indicates that it is or is not. Also, like retirees' medicaid benefits, that can get really expensive.

I suspect some of these not quite dead voters are ones who found that it was much cheaper to retire there than in Florida, for example. Like, if you retired and had to live on a portion of what you used to make you certainly wouldn't move to Beverly Hills, or anywhere with a high cost of living.

You have to consider what constitutes proof and what does not. Like the Russian hacking, IF they can do that we are in deep shit. How could they be able to ? Are they putting the data out there where it can be intercepted and modified ? Or are we talking about a few leaked emails ? (from an illegal unencrypted private email server)

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 12/27/2016 9:02:42 PM >

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/27/2016 9:34:55 PM

ThatDizzyChick

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

sorry your quote notwithstanding, the idea that the electoral college somehow benefitted southern states is a far cry from saying it was invented or even adopted for that purpose.

True, except that in this case that was indeed one of the issues the EC was intended to address.

quote:

you want to ascribe sinister purposes to our founders

No, no sinister purpose, just imperfect political compromise within the ethics and morality of the time.

You do know that small states like Ri and Del were helped to the detriment of large states like VA don't you.

yes of course. And you do know that I specifically said the slavery issue was one of the issues that the EC was meant to address. There were a number of them (I listed a few of them back near the beginning of the thread), and that is why the resulting EC is an imperfect political compromise. Pay attention. :)

< Message edited by ThatDizzyChick -- 12/27/2016 9:35:28 PM >

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/28/2016 4:10:55 AM

MasterJaguar01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

sorry your quote notwithstanding, the idea that the electoral college somehow benefitted southern states is a far cry from saying it was invented or even adopted for that purpose.

True, except that in this case that was indeed one of the issues the EC was intended to address.

quote:

you want to ascribe sinister purposes to our founders

No, no sinister purpose, just imperfect political compromise within the ethics and morality of the time.

You do know that small states like Ri and Del were helped to the detriment of large states like VA don't you.

yes of course. And you do know that I specifically said the slavery issue was one of the issues that the EC was meant to address. There were a number of them (I listed a few of them back near the beginning of the thread), and that is why the resulting EC is an imperfect political compromise. Pay attention. :)

Except RI and Del had no slaves, so no 3/5 rule applied, which meant less House reps, which meant less Electors. Virginia stood to gain the most, being the most populous state including slaves. That is actually how Jefferson defeated Adams in his re-election bid. (Gee... From what state were the next 3 Presidents after Adams??? Ummmmm Virginia!!! Wow... What a coincidence!)

No. Slavery wasn't just ONE of the issues that the EC was meant to address. It was the PRIMARY one.

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/28/2016 4:20:37 AM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

sorry your quote notwithstanding, the idea that the electoral college somehow benefitted southern states is a far cry from saying it was invented or even adopted for that purpose.

True, except that in this case that was indeed one of the issues the EC was intended to address.

quote:

you want to ascribe sinister purposes to our founders

No, no sinister purpose, just imperfect political compromise within the ethics and morality of the time.

You do know that small states like Ri and Del were helped to the detriment of large states like VA don't you.

yes of course. And you do know that I specifically said the slavery issue was one of the issues that the EC was meant to address. There were a number of them (I listed a few of them back near the beginning of the thread), and that is why the resulting EC is an imperfect political compromise. Pay attention. :)

Except RI and Del had no slaves, so no 3/5 rule applied, which meant less House reps, which meant less Electors. Virginia stood to gain the most, being the most populous state including slaves. That is actually how Jefferson defeated Adams in his re-election bid. (Gee... From what state were the next 3 Presidents after Adams??? Ummmmm Virginia!!! Wow... What a coincidence!)

No. Slavery wasn't just ONE of the issues that the EC was meant to address. It was the PRIMARY one.

Virginia was a big state and many of the leaders of the new republic were from there. Keep in mind that it was a bigger part of the Union as it included what is now WV. Your claim that it was set up to help slave owners is still unfounded. It is as bad as Mnottertails claim that the 2nd was passed to help slave catchers because slave catchers carried guns.

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/28/2016 4:24:13 AM

MasterJaguar01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Virginia was a big state and many of the leaders of the new republic were from there. Keep in mind that it was a bigger part of the Union as it included what is now WV. Your claim that it was set up to help slave owners is still unfounded. It is as bad as Mnottertails claim that the 2nd was passed to help slave catchers because slave catchers carried guns.

Face palm.

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/28/2016 4:25:00 AM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

The Alabama discrepancy could easily have been caused by people moving into the state since the last census. Don't believe anyone would move down there ? Well who moves north to retire ? And I still maintain that SS retirement benefits are counted in what a state "gets" from the feds when the liberals claim them to be "welfare states".

Nobody has been able to offer any proof to the contrary. I myself looked for it and found nothing that indicates that it is or is not. Also, like retirees' medicaid benefits, that can get really expensive.

I suspect some of these not quite dead voters are ones who found that it was much cheaper to retire there than in Florida, for example. Like, if you retired and had to live on a portion of what you used to make you certainly wouldn't move to Beverly Hills, or anywhere with a high cost of living.

You have to consider what constitutes proof and what does not. Like the Russian hacking, IF they can do that we are in deep shit. How could they be able to ? Are they putting the data out there where it can be intercepted and modified ? Or are we talking about a few leaked emails ? (from an illegal unencrypted private email server)

T^T

So you agree that it is most likely a matter of bookkeeping rather than fraud.
More people voting than are registere in Detroit, on the other hand......

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/28/2016 5:10:09 AM

bounty44

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yes I agree, that one was a bad reference on my behalf.

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/28/2016 5:15:57 AM

bounty44

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no, I think by calling you "leftie" of "liberal" I can correctly identify what you are and what are you doing to history, re-interpreting it to suit your purposes.

there are no "facts" for your assertion that the electoral college was invented, or even adopted because it protected slavery. its merely something you, and yes other (doesn't matter how many, its the same story over and over), leftie sources.

so i'll put it out there again---you believe our founder had some nefarious purpose in its adoption, and because of that, they had to keep their true motivations secret.

in short, your thinking sucks.

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/28/2016 5:49:14 AM

MasterJaguar01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

no, I think by calling you "leftie" of "liberal" I can correctly identify what you are and what are you doing to history, re-interpreting it to suit your purposes.

there are no "facts" for your assertion that the electoral college was invented, or even adopted because it protected slavery. its merely something you, and yes other (doesn't matter how many, its the same story over and over), leftie sources.

so i'll put it out there again---you believe our founder had some nefarious purpose in its adoption, and because of that, they had to keep their true motivations secret.

in short, your thinking sucks.

Lol...

Madison, Williamson, and Pinckney (and probably many others) announced their concerns for protecting the power of slave states in the context of their support for the Electoral College. It's a fact that you do not wish to accept.

Call me "leftie". or liberal all you want if it makes you happy. You are completely wrong in this assertion as well. I just smile as I read it. (The typical tactic of ideologues who are losing an argument is start the ad hominem attacks)

Regarding a "nefarious" purpose... I will let others decide that. It was clear that they did not want it stated as the "Official" purpose.

Of courses sources don't matter, (because they are "leftie!")

But I found Paul Finkleman's excellent essay on the subject:

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/original-sin-electoral-college-proslavery-tool/#!

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/28/2016 5:59:52 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

Except RI and Del had no slaves....

Slavery in Rhode Island
Slavery in Delaware

K.

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/28/2016 6:01:04 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
How quickly we forget the under-cover videographers being told by volunteers at DNC registration sites things like: "Oh! You're still registered in the state where you used to live? I guess you could vote their, too."
It's a fact: Voter fraud exists. The lefties always say "It's nominal" (when they finally admit it), but the truth is (as I pointed out in another thread): One vote could, theoretically command 55 Electoral college votes. When that happens and it winds up going for anyone but a Dumbocrat, we'll get cries from the left about voter fraud and voter ID laws.
Michael

Michael, I never said voter fraud doesn't exist. In fact, I'm a big supporter of Voter ID requirements, to prevent voter fraud.

However, the article that bounty used was a worthless piece. I critiqued it and showed it's defects.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/12/records-many-votes-detroits-precincts/95363314/

37% of Detroit precincts had more votes tabulated in the machines than voters of record by the pollworkers in those precincts.
While it may be indicative of pollworkers not recording voters properly, it could also indicate voter fraud.

That is more likely to be voter fraud than areas having more registrations than a US Census estimate says the area should have. And, even if there are, in fact, more registered voters than actual residents eligible to vote, if it's because the voter rolls haven't been cleaned of those that have moved or those that are no longer alive, if those registered voters don't vote, there isn't any fraud.

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/28/2016 6:03:03 AM

MasterJaguar01

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

Except RI and Del had no slaves....

Slavery in Rhode Island
Slavery in Delaware

K.

I stand corrected. Rhode Island and Delaware had far FEWER slaves. (Which gave them less Electors).

Thanks for the correction.

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/28/2016 6:03:31 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
yes I agree, that one was a bad reference on my behalf.

I'm glad that at least you took my post the way it was intended.

Precisely what I would expect from you, too.

< Message edited by DesideriScuri -- 12/28/2016 6:06:36 AM >

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RE: Electoral College 101 - 12/28/2016 6:15:28 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

I found Paul Finkleman's excellent essay on the subject:

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/original-sin-electoral-college-proslavery-tool/#!

the Electoral College had little to do with slavery and much to do with a desire to ensure small geographic regions and cities could not control the executive branch....

Gouverneur Morris of Pennsylvania, whose state eliminated slavery in 1780, opined that “the great evil of cabal and corruption” could not be avoided under a direct popular vote. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, a state which fully disposed of the institution even earlier, called a national referendum “radically vicious,” also failing to mention the slavery motive. Roger Sherman and Oliver Ellsworth of Connecticut, a state that passed its gradual emancipation act of 1784, also raised explicit objections against a presidential election through the people at large.

To come to the conclusion that the Electoral College was created in order to protect "the power of slave states,"

one must actively ignore the entire breadth of the Philadelphia Convention debates, everything that was said about such a system in the state ratification campaigns, an array of important context beyond a single Madison quote, and a battery of contradictory evidence suggesting that slavery had nothing to do with the reasons such a mechanism came to be favored for presidential elections.

Source

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/28/2016 6:16:57 AM >

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