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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

OK. But the problem then is the one outlined above.

If we set our assumptions as the parameters, we only find what we think we know.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
I can do without that pompous, snarky, childish, boring shit.

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ORIGINAL: tamaka

Your problem is that the basic 'problem' put forth:

The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent God...

Is that there is no need to reconcile since God in the Bible never claims to be 'Omnibenevolent'. In fact, He clearly states that He is not.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

OK. But the problem then is the one outlined above.

If we set our assumptions as the parameters, we only find what we think we know.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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Well God may seem as a serial killer to some people just like abortion seems like murder to some people. It's a matter of perspective, which if God is real, His perspective is probably a bit broader than any of ours.

Right. God's will be done. [8|]

People are killed everyday by nature. God, we are told in the West, created Nature. Ergo . . . .

so then its the creators fault? Therefore Winchester, Remington, Smith Wesson et al are to blame for all the shootings caused by their creation.

If you have a child who grows into an adult and rapes someone that is also your fault cuz you made em is that right?

Square that up for us.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Well God may seem as a serial killer to some people just like abortion seems like murder to some people. It's a matter of perspective, which if God is real, His perspective is probably a bit broader than any of ours.

Right. God's will be done. [8|]

People are killed everyday by nature. God, we are told in the West, created Nature. Ergo . . . .

Position 1) so then its the creators fault? Therefore Winchester, Remington, Smith Wesson et al are to blame for all the shootings caused by their creation.

Position 2) If you have a child who grows into an adult and rapes someone that is also your fault cuz you made em is that right?

Square that up for us.

RO, you are way off my point here. I specifically excluded the evil that men do because the Christian theists dodge that with the doctrine of free will and punitive sin.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The secret word is context.

But if all things includes all of space and all of time, then time is not linear and events were also made when God made all things. They don't actually happen, the 'happening' is our perception of them.

In your statement you didn't mention context at all... you were proclaiming that things and objects were the same, which is why you got the response you did (and I even asked about context).

Oh, and you're a stupid cunt.

I didn't "mention" the context? Ferfucksake, I quoted it. And you provided it: The Gospel of John. The context of John 1:3 is "in the beginning," and non-linear time doesn't have a beginning. But hey, keep swinging. The poor lonely brain cell obviously needs the exercise, and I think it's helping. You're becoming more creative.

K.

In several religious systems, including Hinduism, Taoism, and many primal religions, their isn't this "God did everything" assumption -- for the Greeks, the Universe created the gods. For many, the Universe just always was, vs. created.

So...if folks want the discussion limited to the Abraham religions, it's worth clarifying that at the outset. At the same time, that's just announcing "we're going to cling to assumptions," so the conversation is likely to be circular.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Given that John's prologue was written in Koine Greek, I'm not sure battling over the English meaning of "things" is all that productive. A more fruitful question might be what "all things" may have meant to those hearing the passage in the first or second centuries.

I've always taken the words to mean the whole of creation, including humankind, but then I've never delved into the question.

Bonus trivia: John 1 was considered such a core text that it was read at the end of each Roman Catholic mass prior to Vatican II.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Well God may seem as a serial killer to some people just like abortion seems like murder to some people. It's a matter of perspective, which if God is real, His perspective is probably a bit broader than any of ours.

Right. God's will be done. [8|]

People are killed everyday by nature. God, we are told in the West, created Nature. Ergo . . . .

Position 1) so then its the creators fault? Therefore Winchester, Remington, Smith Wesson et al are to blame for all the shootings caused by their creation.

Position 2) If you have a child who grows into an adult and rapes someone that is also your fault cuz you made em is that right?

Square that up for us.

RO, you are way off my point here. I specifically excluded the evil that men do because the Christian theists dodge that with the doctrine of free will and punitive sin.

OK great so you have eliminated Position 2) however you completely ignored Position 1) so then its the creators fault? Therefore Winchester, Remington, Smith Wesson et al are to blame for all the shootings caused by their creation. which directly applies.

[and just in case it doesnt]:

So its all the creators fault, the same could be said about a tree that falls on someone, or lightning striking someone and any number of things in nature, someone drowning for instance, the creators fault?

Seriously square that up for us, how that fits your God is a criminal because God is the creator position?

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ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Last chance, 'QUOTE' where it says or implies God 'does' everything.

That page I linked to provided an abundance of quotes regarding God's omnipotence, but okay:

quote:

John 1:3

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

ALL THINGS-- as far as I can tell, that includes everything that has happened, everything that is happening, and everything that will happen.

http://biblehub.com/john/1-3.htm

I suppose you could argue this was an oversight, an unreliable source, clumsy wording or that 'all things' doesn't literally mean 'everything' and that God simply created the thing that would eventually become all things... but this notion doesn't seem so complicated to me that if whoever was communicating with God at the time had wanted to express that, they wouldn't have been able to.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Well God may seem as a serial killer to some people just like abortion seems like murder to some people. It's a matter of perspective, which if God is real, His perspective is probably a bit broader than any of ours.

Right. God's will be done. [8|]

People are killed everyday by nature. God, we are told in the West, created Nature. Ergo . . . .

Position 1) so then its the creators fault? Therefore Winchester, Remington, Smith Wesson et al are to blame for all the shootings caused by their creation.

Position 2) If you have a child who grows into an adult and rapes someone that is also your fault cuz you made em is that right?

Square that up for us.

RO, you are way off my point here. I specifically excluded the evil that men do because the Christian theists dodge that with the doctrine of free will and punitive sin.

OK great so you have eliminated Position 2) however you completely ignored Position 1) so then its the creators fault? Therefore Winchester, Remington, Smith Wesson et al are to blame for all the shootings caused by their creation. which directly applies.

[and just in case it doesnt]:

So its all the creators fault, the same could be said about a tree that falls on someone, or lightning striking someone and any number of things in nature, someone drowning for instance, the creators fault?

Seriously square that up for us, how that fits your God is a criminal because God is the creator position?

I eliminated both, since both involve human agency.

The drowning? Yeah, if it were a flash flood, say, the Deity did it. If a drunk fell overboard, human agency.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

I introduced the topic of theodicy in reply to a poster's misbegotten notions of the evolution of furry fish...

Yeah, and the scary thing is that you really do think they connect somehow.

Ohhhh . . . . I didn't intend to frighten you, child. Perhaps you will feel safe hiding under your bed for awhile.

I'd feel safer if you could present a cogent explanation for why you think the Theological problem of evil is germane to the issue of whether Science and Religion are incompatible. It seems to me an exceedingly peculiar notion on its face, and all the more so because the so-called "problem of evil" isn't even a problem for religion generally anyway. Perhaps you might be willing to enlighten us?

K.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne
most people today wouldnt stand a snowballs chance in hell of sorting that out based upon the arguments I have seen on these boards.

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ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

I always thought there was more than one religion. Does anyone know how many gods there are – named ones…don’t look at me I don’t.

Surely religions are completely incompatible with each other I conclude as I stagger of to the fridge for a nice glass of cheap chardonnay

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huh? seriously? People are mobile, its human agency that they were in a place of a natural disaster in the first place. That said you need to explain how humans can be involved at all without some level of human agency?