RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 9:18:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

God COULD have created a universe where children weren't born with cancer, where volcanoes didn't incinerate whole villages alive, or where animals didn't regularly maul people.

I still want to know precisely what allegedly omnibenevolent "Christian God" you're talking about. The one who commands a series of wholesale slaughters, or the one who condemns people he doesn't like to eternal torment in the fires of Hell? Work on getting around to that, would you?

K.





Musicmystery -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 9:23:43 AM)

Old Testament God vs. New Testament God

Matured? Anger Management? Birth of Son Calmed him down?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XhnOVsxEJM




tamaka -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 10:59:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Old Testament God vs. New Testament God

Matured? Anger Management? Birth of Son Calmed him down?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XhnOVsxEJM



Progressive revelation?

http://www.exploregod.com/old-testament-vs-new-testament-a-tale-of-two-gods




vincentML -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 11:21:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

God COULD have created a universe where children weren't born with cancer, where volcanoes didn't incinerate whole villages alive, or where animals didn't regularly maul people.

I still want to know precisely what allegedly omnibenevolent "Christian God" you're talking about. The one who commands a series of wholesale slaughters, or the one who condemns people he doesn't like to eternal torment in the fires of Hell? Work on getting around to that, would you?

K.



The Christian God does not condemn people to Hell because he doesn't like them. Don't know where you got that idea. Work on it, will you?




Kirata -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 11:23:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Old Testament God vs. New Testament God

Matured? Anger Management? Birth of Son Calmed him down?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XhnOVsxEJM

Lewis Black is a scream!

The way I see it, labor relations were never God's strong suit. Finally he decided to offer us a deal that he figured we couldn't refuse, but with a much stiffer penalty for non-compliance, and that one isn't working out very well either.

K.





Real0ne -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 11:24:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

so wtf makes you so special or the rest of humanity so special that you think God should have created them better than God?

Again, not what I said. You are making shit up.

quote:

God could have been nice and not created humans at all.


Probably would have saved Himself some headaches. [;)]



your whole premise is screwed and you dont see it. theodicy asks why evil exists if God is good, has nothing to do with natural disasters. You frame it up to exclude 'free will to stack the deck in your favor because you know that in fact is why evil exists, then you conflate and superimpose natural with supernatural. Like I said your position is entirely indefensible when properly framed.




Kirata -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 11:42:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I still want to know precisely what allegedly omnibenevolent "Christian God" you're talking about. The one who commands a series of wholesale slaughters, or the one who condemns people he doesn't like to eternal torment in the fires of Hell? Work on getting around to that, would you?

The Christian God does not condemn people to Hell because he doesn't like them. Don't know where you got that idea. Work on it, will you?

That's a cute dance step, but you didn't answer the question. Let me rephrase it for you.

I still want to know precisely what allegedly omnibenevolent "Christian God" you're talking about. The one who commands a series of wholesale slaughters, or the one who condemns people he doesn't like to eternal torment in the fires of Hell?

There ya go. Now, without the music this time...

K.






MrRodgers -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 11:48:36 AM)

Once and for all, no...they aren't compatible.




dcnovice -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 11:49:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

and Job.

One of my medical updates a few years back focused on Job. I hope it's not too obnoxious to share it here.

The Patience of Job
September 30, 2013

Few of you will be surprised to read that I do not have the patience of Job. Neither, it turns out, did he.

In my life, the Book of Job has been something of a classic in the Mark Twain sense: a work I’ve read about but never troubled to actually read. That changed last night. I was feeling particularly Job-like. Weariness had consumed the bulk of yet another weekend, and my bowels’ increasingly maddening antics included moving without warning in the middle of a giving a historic house tour. After frantically excusing myself, I left the guests standing in the master bedroom—a no-no, I’m sure—and tore up to the fourth floor bathroom. Only the knowledge that I had to go finish the tour kept me from melting down. Mercifully, the guests were very kind and don’t seem to have pocketed anything.

With that weighing on me, my thoughts turned to my litany of woes: the depression, the diabetes, the mobility issues that have harassed me all year, and of course the cancer. And second and third thoughts about my choice of surgical procedures. Out of that toxic brew emerged my first “prayer” in days or even weeks: “Why, O God, do you hate me?” A flood of tears followed. No surprise: They were days in coming. I found myself wanting to read William Safire’s provocatively titled reflection on Job: The First Dissident. But before that, I figured, I should really, finally wade into the primary source itself.

So I did. At about halfway through, I confess it’s a bit of a trudge. That’s partly because it’s essentially a play, and simply reading flattens its power. Also, the characters do go on a bit. Actually, a lot. There are three cycles of speeches that all pretty much say the same thing. Job insists that God has wronged him—an innocent man. Then the original Job’s comforters scold him, saying he must be guilty of some sin to be punished so brutally.

I took to Job immediately and adored his supreme impatience. He has the gall to bewail his birth—a shocking thought both then and now—lamenting that he wasn’t stillborn. And he has no plans to suffer in silence. “But I will not hold my peace,” he says, “I will speak out in the distress of my mind and complain in the bitterness of my soul” (Job 7:11). Wow, I thought, this is a guy who gets it! There are times—we’ve all had them—when life truly sucks, and no rosy lens can disguise that.

I already knew the ending, so I didn’t feel bad about peeking ahead. To be honest, it’s a disappointment. God shows up and blasts Job, demanding to know if Job was there when God created the universe and chastising him for the effrontery of questioning the divine design. And then, I’m sorry to say, Job caves. “I have spoken of great things I have not understood…. Therefore I melt away; I repent in dust and ashes” (42:3,6). Ugh. God basically bullies Job into silence and never answers his perfectly valid points. What began as a tale of amazing honesty and power shrivels into the ancient Hebrew version of The Taming of the Shrew.

I haven’t yet read Safire’s reflections, but I did recall—and dig out—an interesting perspective from Bishop John Shelby Spong. In Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism, he cites the Book of Job as an example of “protest literature”—“stories that provided a counterpoint to a prevailing attitude.” That attitude was one we still encounter today: “If [people] were poor and afflicted, they deserved it. Likewise, if they were rich and healthy, they deserved it.” Including Job in the scriptural canon, Spong argues, was a way of spurring the community to pause and consider things from a different angle, to stop assuming God shared their mindset.

This is turning into a sermon, which I hadn’t intended. So I’m gonna leave poor Job in his dust and ashes and advance the medical story.




mnottertail -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 11:50:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

so wtf makes you so special or the rest of humanity so special that you think God should have created them better than God?

Again, not what I said. You are making shit up.

quote:

God could have been nice and not created humans at all.


Probably would have saved Himself some headaches. [;)]



your whole premise is screwed and you dont see it. theodicy asks why evil exists if God is good, has nothing to do with natural disasters. You frame it up to exclude 'free will to stack the deck in your favor because you know that in fact is why evil exists, then you conflate and superimpose natural with supernatural. Like I said your position is entirely indefensible when properly framed.

Your premises are always screwed and you dont see it. If there is a god (and there isn't) he also created natural disasters. Read the bar bet between yhwh and satan, it is in the fairytale called Job in the bible.




Real0ne -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 12:05:59 PM)

God created nature, hence God created the ocean, God created the air, it does not follow that God created an event we call a hurricane. Well except to you of course. You have a right to your beliefs, not your own facts, you claim God does not exist but as usual cant even provide evidence much less prove your groundless claims.




dcnovice -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 12:14:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I still want to know precisely what allegedly omnibenevolent "Christian God" you're talking about. The one who commands a series of wholesale slaughters, or the one who condemns people he doesn't like to eternal torment in the fires of Hell? Work on getting around to that, would you?

The Christian God does not condemn people to Hell because he doesn't like them. Don't know where you got that idea. Work on it, will you?

That's a cute dance step, but you didn't answer the question. Let me rephrase it for you.

I still want to know precisely what allegedly omnibenevolent "Christian God" you're talking about. The one who commands a series of wholesale slaughters, or the one who condemns people he doesn't like to eternal torment in the fires of Hell?

There ya go. Now, without the music this time...

K.


This may be the fog of chemo brain, but Kirata and Vincent both seem to be making the same point: The deity portrayed in Judeo-Christian scriptures acts at times in ways that seem morally shocking.




Real0ne -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 12:22:57 PM)

But you first have to show God created the 'event'. You can throw all the ingredients of a cake in a pan but it wont bake until some other element is added, that element being heat. Just because God created bature does not mean everything that can occur in nature is God's fault as vince is trying to argue. I pointed that out with the gun example and he dissed as not relevant, and now we go full circle again on the same point without any direct counter argument from the vince side.




Musicmystery -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 12:43:08 PM)

There's a common theme in Greek literature -- man is mortal, and his condition demands humility.

The gods, however, are immortal, and have no such restrictions. They are eternal; we are temporal.




mnottertail -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 12:56:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

God created nature, hence God created the ocean, God created the air, it does not follow that God created an event we call a hurricane. Well except to you of course. You have a right to your beliefs, not your own facts, you claim God does not exist but as usual cant even provide evidence much less prove your groundless claims.


If my shoe prints exist on your crotch it does not follow that you were kicked in the nuts.

you havent proved or provided evidence of anything ever.

Is gods hand shortened? If he created the world, and the universe and nature and he cannot control it, is he a god? More like he would be just another one of your hysterical hallucinations. Does your god have the power of life and death as he claims? can he part the seas? Do all things come from god for the good of those who love him or not?

did he cause the world to be flooded and drown people? did he cause the first born of every egyptian son to die? did he rain pestilence down on the egyptians? Kill the inhabitants of Sodom and Gemorrah? But he couldnt prevent a natural disaster like the earthquake in china that killed millions of innocents? Did god say "But I was busy eating fishsticks in the cafeteria"?

Don't be such a fucking retard, retard.

run your shitspew about your groundless claims, the book of fairytales is lying, or you are.





vincentML -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 1:28:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

But you first have to show God created the 'event'. You can throw all the ingredients of a cake in a pan but it wont bake until some other element is added, that element being heat. Just because God created bature does not mean everything that can occur in nature is God's fault as vince is trying to argue. I pointed that out with the gun example and he dissed as not relevant, and now we go full circle again on the same point without any direct counter argument from the vince side.

It is all in the design, RO. If the brakes are faulty we blame the engineer. If the O rings don't seal we blame the designer. If the brain of the child harbors a tumor, who should we blame?

And secondly, did Jesus not calm the waters on the Galilee? Did he not demonstrate his power over Nature? Is Nature not powered by God? Or does Nature have the power to resist God?

Is God Omnipotent or is he a wuss?





vincentML -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 1:31:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I still want to know precisely what allegedly omnibenevolent "Christian God" you're talking about. The one who commands a series of wholesale slaughters, or the one who condemns people he doesn't like to eternal torment in the fires of Hell? Work on getting around to that, would you?

The Christian God does not condemn people to Hell because he doesn't like them. Don't know where you got that idea. Work on it, will you?

That's a cute dance step, but you didn't answer the question. Let me rephrase it for you.

I still want to know precisely what allegedly omnibenevolent "Christian God" you're talking about. The one who commands a series of wholesale slaughters, or the one who condemns people he doesn't like to eternal torment in the fires of Hell?

There ya go. Now, without the music this time...

K.


This may be the fog of chemo brain, but Kirata and Vincent both seem to be making the same point: The deity portrayed in Judeo-Christian scriptures acts at times in ways that seem morally shocking.

The difference is in the expectations of His followers, who see the God/Jesus as merciful, but whose behavior seems to be as you say, morally shocking.

I hope the chemo is successful, DC.




Real0ne -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 1:43:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

But you first have to show God created the 'event'. You can throw all the ingredients of a cake in a pan but it wont bake until some other element is added, that element being heat. Just because God created bature does not mean everything that can occur in nature is God's fault as vince is trying to argue. I pointed that out with the gun example and he dissed as not relevant, and now we go full circle again on the same point without any direct counter argument from the vince side.

It is all in the design, RO. If the brakes are faulty we blame the engineer. If the O rings don't seal we blame the designer. If the brain of the child harbors a tumor, who should we blame?

And secondly, did Jesus not part the waters on the Galilee? Did he not demonstrate his power over Nature? Is Nature not powered by God? Or does Nature have the power to resist God?

Is God Omnipotent or is he a wuss?





Again your reasoning is flawed:

Omnipotent means having unlimited power; able to do anything.

You assume yourself to be God by judging Gods [in]action(s) and nowhere in the words you use as your premise to accuse God of being a criminal is there so much as a hint of 'requirement' for God to actually 'do' anything. Hence it is the option of God based upon whatever God's reasons are not mine or yours. Having the power does not imply a necessity to use the power, which in reverse can be said because you have a nuke you must use it to wipe out a city of bad guys. One need not look further thean the definition of onipoten5t

You are demanding from me to know and explain to you the mind of God, and litigate on God's behalf with the assumption I know the whole scope of what God knows.

Good and evil is all in the design, mankind has a choice. Because evil exists does not mean mankind must choose it, despite its popularity today.







Real0ne -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 1:52:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

But you first have to show God created the 'event'. You can throw all the ingredients of a cake in a pan but it wont bake until some other element is added, that element being heat. Just because God created bature does not mean everything that can occur in nature is God's fault as vince is trying to argue. I pointed that out with the gun example and he dissed as not relevant, and now we go full circle again on the same point without any direct counter argument from the vince side.

It is all in the design, RO. If the brakes are faulty we blame the engineer. If the O rings don't seal we blame the designer. If the brain of the child harbors a tumor, who should we blame?

And secondly, did Jesus not calm the waters on the Galilee? Did he not demonstrate his power over Nature? Is Nature not powered by God? Or does Nature have the power to resist God?

Is God Omnipotent or is he a wuss?




So you think you can pollute the shit out of the planet eat fake grease change the chemistry of your body with countless manmade drugs lay around drunk and God was supposed to make sure you lived forever under any conditions? geebus already




Real0ne -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/16/2017 1:59:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

God created nature, hence God created the ocean, God created the air, it does not follow that God created an event we call a hurricane. Well except to you of course. You have a right to your beliefs, not your own facts, you claim God does not exist but as usual cant even provide evidence much less prove your groundless claims.


If my shoe prints exist on your crotch it does not follow that you were kicked in the nuts.

you havent proved or provided evidence of anything ever.

Is gods hand shortened? If he created the world, and the universe and nature and he cannot control it, is he a god? More like he would be just another one of your hysterical hallucinations. Does your god have the power of life and death as he claims? can he part the seas? Do all things come from god for the good of those who love him or not?

did he cause the world to be flooded and drown people? did he cause the first born of every egyptian son to die? did he rain pestilence down on the egyptians? Kill the inhabitants of Sodom and Gemorrah? But he couldnt prevent a natural disaster like the earthquake in china that killed millions of innocents? Did god say "But I was busy eating fishsticks in the cafeteria"?

Don't be such a fucking retard, retard.

run your shitspew about your groundless claims, the book of fairytales is lying, or you are.



Proves no such thing.
S^G fall under the israelite G-D, not the Christian God.
Personally I think God did a great job parting your hair though.






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