RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 2:00:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

it's impossible for any of us to know what we would do if we had God's knowledge, and it would benefit our judgments to remember that we don't.
A rehash of the lame admonition that we are not to question God's will. And yet we have the ability for perception and the capacity to wonder about the endless natural tragedies that befall humans.


If the theists are to be believed, apparently humans have enough intelligence to figure out that a deity exists, to attribute various qualities and talents to that deity, but not enough to either divine its intentions or prove its existence conclusively.

It seems that this (benevolent?) deity has left us all permanently in the lurch, suspended perpetually somewhere between ignorance and enlightenment, bright enough to know our limitations and stupid enough to ignore them.

Now why any entity would be daft enough to do this is a question that needs answering but it seems our theists suddenly discover the virtues of ignorance when this question is posed ...



Kirata -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 2:16:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

theists suddenly discover the virtues of ignorance when this question is posed ...

The phrase you were looking for is the virtue of humility.

K.



thishereboi -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 2:17:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

it's impossible for any of us to know what we would do if we had God's knowledge, and it would benefit our judgments to remember that we don't.
A rehash of the lame admonition that we are not to question God's will. And yet we have the ability for perception and the capacity to wonder about the endless natural tragedies that befall humans.


If the theists are to be believed, apparently humans have enough intelligence to figure out that a deity exists, to attribute various qualities and talents to that deity, but not enough to either divine its intentions or prove its existence conclusively.

It seems that this (benevolent?) deity has left us all permanently in the lurch, suspended perpetually somewhere between ignorance and enlightenment, bright enough to know our limitations and stupid enough to ignore them.

Now why any entity would be daft enough to do this is a question that needs answering but it seems our theists suddenly discover the virtues of ignorance when this question is posed ...



Perhaps he just likes to confuse and piss off athiests. Not that it takes much but still......



tweakabelle -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 3:02:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

theists suddenly discover the virtues of ignorance when this question is posed ...

The phrase you were looking for is the virtue of humility.

K.


No. The phrase I was looking for was the one I wrote. I wasn't aware that you had suddenly gained the power to see inside my mind and am pretty sure you don't possess any such power or insight. It's all a bit rich coming from someone who is as fond of criticising others for their 'mind-reading' abilities as you are. I wanted to state that theists invariably admit ignorance when pressed to explain why any entity would creates such a silly set of conditions and limitations such as those that apply to humans and that is what I stated.

However I am sure it would be appreciated if those same believers displayed the same virtue of ignorance (or even humility) when it comes to identifying/proclaiming their favoured deity's alleged talents powers and attributes. I am unable to report ever witnessing any believer doing so. Indeed believers are notable for their propensity to eloquently attribute all kinds of magical powers talents and other qualities to their favoured deities. The absence of even the merest hint of humility or any admission of ignorance is notable. In fact quite the opposite - such claims are characterised by their strident dogmatic tones of absolute conviction and certainty.



bounty44 -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 5:08:21 AM)

do you think you have some incredible and marvelous insight into theology and faith such that you've identified some fatal and heretofore undiscovered flaw that's never been addressed before?

look up the word hubris and consider it in light of your post.

if you actually want the answers to those questions as opposed to unjustifiably posturing with them on a forum and [wrongly] taking a lack of response as evidence of your correctness, they exist, go search for them in earnest.

and kirata's not engaging in "mind-reading"--in part, he's correctly categorizing and partially answering the thing you are describing. a little reading on the word "humility" should help you to see that.

or you can just come back without doing any of those things and continue to misunderstand and self-justify.



tweakabelle -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 6:04:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

do you think you have some incredible and marvelous insight into theology and faith such that you've identified some fatal and heretofore undiscovered flaw that's never been addressed before?

look up the word hubris and consider it in light of your post.

if you actually want the answers to those questions as opposed to unjustifiably posturing with them on a forum and [wrongly] taking a lack of response as evidence of your correctness, they exist, go search for them in earnest.

and kirata's not engaging in "mind-reading"--in part, he's correctly categorizing and partially answering the thing you are describing. a little reading on the word "humility" should help you to see that.

or you can just come back without doing any of those things and continue to misunderstand and self-justify.


If one peels back the bluster and bombast that characterises your post, it's evident that you are unable or unwilling to provide an explanation either. Yet for no apparent reason, you sound convinced that one exists ....

I doubt if your purpose was to confirm my observation that believers' claims in this area are notable for : "The absence of even the merest hint of humility or any admission of ignorance [...]. In fact quite the opposite - such claims are characterised by their strident dogmatic tones of absolute conviction and certainty." But your post offers good supporting evidence for my observation.

So in the end your post makes an awful lot of noise while managing to say virtually nothing useful at all.



vincentML -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 8:22:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

it's impossible for any of us to know what we would do if we had God's knowledge, and it would benefit our judgments to remember that we don't.

A rehash of the lame admonition that we are not to question God's will.

Why would someone who doesn't even know whether there is a God be admonishing people not to question his will?

I don't know whether there is a God or not, but while it may be easy for you to imagine how you would do things if you had God's power, it's impossible for any of us to know what we would do if we had God's knowledge, and it would benefit our judgments to remember that we don't.

I know you try your best not to let people see the rabbit, but amateurish quote-trimming won't work.

K.


You in particular would make such an admonishment (replying to your question in red above) in order to create a straw man as you did (in blue above) I never made a claim to imagine anything if I had God's power. I simply called attention to the prevalence of natural catastrophes despite the belief in a merciful God. Rather than reply directly you created a straw man about my imagination. You are not so clever as you think.



vincentML -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 8:38:05 AM)

quote:

So what if there are endless natural tragedies that befall humans?

Your compassion for the victims is heart warming.

[8|]



tamaka -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 9:25:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

So what if there are endless natural tragedies that befall humans?

Your compassion for the victims is heart warming.

[8|]


Victims? Perhaps we're the victims here and when we leave this earth everything is wonderful again.



Kirata -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 10:49:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

theists suddenly discover the virtues of ignorance when this question is posed ...

The phrase you were looking for is the virtue of humility.

I wasn't aware that you had suddenly gained the power to see inside my mind . . . I wanted to state that theists invariably admit ignorance when pressed to explain why any entity would creates such a silly set of conditions and limitations such as those that apply to humans and that is what I stated.

I wasn't reading your mind, I was correcting your English. Ignorance is not a virtue.

K.



Kirata -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 10:58:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

it's impossible for any of us to know what we would do if we had God's knowledge, and it would benefit our judgments to remember that we don't.

A rehash of the lame admonition that we are not to question God's will.

Why would someone who doesn't even know whether there is a God be admonishing people not to question his will?

I don't know whether there is a God or not, but while it may be easy for you to imagine how you would do things if you had God's power, it's impossible for any of us to know what we would do if we had God's knowledge, and it would benefit our judgments to remember that we don't.

I know you try your best not to let people see the rabbit, but amateurish quote-trimming won't work.

You in particular would make such an admonishment (replying to your question in red above) in order to create a straw man as you did (in blue above) I never made a claim to imagine anything if I had God's power. I simply called attention to the prevalence of natural catastrophes despite the belief in a merciful God. Rather than reply directly you created a straw man about my imagination. You are not so clever as you think.

I have never made such an admonition, and no twisting of my words will create one. Furthermore, you haven't made a case that natural catastrophes would be inconsistent with a merciful God even if I believed in one.

K.



bounty44 -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 11:18:11 AM)

jumping in briefly to say that everyone would do well to read cs lewis' the problem of pain.

a brief synopsis here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Problem_of_Pain



dcnovice -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 12:37:41 PM)

quote:

jumping in briefly to say that everyone would do well to read cs lewis' the problem of pain.

I read it in college, but it left me cold. Perhaps I'll try it again with older eyes.

My disappointment may have stemmed in part from its being so different from The Screwtape Letters, which I'd loved in high school and remains one of my favorite books.



bounty44 -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 2:15:23 PM)

heck by contrast, I loved the premise of the screwtape letters but felt lewis didn't deliver well on it.



vincentML -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 3:51:07 PM)

Ah. . .so you think a merciful God would approve of mass suffering of humans by earthquakes and such, do you?



tamaka -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 3:53:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ah. . .so you think a merciful God would approve of mass suffering of humans by earthquakes and such, do you?


Maybe God is a sadist... who said he was always merciful? No one.



Kirata -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 4:20:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ah. . .so you think a merciful God would approve of mass suffering of humans by earthquakes and such, do you?

I asked you to make a case that natural catastrophes are inconsistent with a merciful God. Don't try to get around the issue by making up your own questions. Whether or not God approves of the suffering is a separate matter. So how about you stop dancing and show us what you've got, besides just an opinion based on nothing more than your own personal notion of how things would be if you were the "merciful God" in question.

K.




vincentML -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 5:27:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ah. . .so you think a merciful God would approve of mass suffering of humans by earthquakes and such, do you?

I asked you to make a case that natural catastrophes are inconsistent with a merciful God. Don't try to get around the issue by making up your own questions. Whether or not God approves of the suffering is a separate matter. So how about you stop dancing and show us what you've got, besides just an opinion based on nothing more than your own personal notion of how things would be if you were the "merciful God" in question.

K.



I never stated an opinion. I simply made an observation. I will repeat it here for the dull-witted:

quote:

I simply called attention to the prevalence of natural catastrophes despite the belief in a merciful God.


I don't see why I need to make a case for it. The observation speaks for itself. Surely, you are "aware" of both the first and second parts of my observation, right? You are aware that natural disasters occur? You are aware that there is belief in a merciful God? Why are you confused, Kirata? You are an aware entity, aren't you?



dcnovice -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 5:39:15 PM)

quote:

Maybe God is a sadist... who said he was always merciful? No one.


O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever.
Let Israel now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
Let the house of Aaron now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
Let them now that fear the Lord say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

PSALM 118:1-4 (KJV)



dcnovice -> RE: Are Science and Religion incompatible? (1/11/2017 5:43:10 PM)

O GOD, whose nature and property is ever to have mercy and to forgive;
Receive our humble petitions;
and though we be tied and bound with the chain of our sins,
yet let the pitifulness of thy great mercy loose us;
for the honour of Jesus Christ, our Mediator and Advocate. Amen.

BOOK OF COMMON PRAYER (1928)



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