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GaryWilcox -> RE: Trump Deportation Plan and bringing safe toilets back (2/26/2017 6:20:25 AM)
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Hi Kaliko. I'm going to answer you, and I want to be very respectful, as you've been open about your transphobia in a way that is really helpful to the discussion and kind, not at all mean or ugly. I am not trans* myself, so I can only give you what I know as a second-party friend to some trans-folk and hope it helps. I realize that I probably won't change your mind, I know, but maybe I can give you some ethical considerations to mull over, in time, even if you can't accept these arguments today.
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ORIGINAL: Kaliko
Not that it matters (because I know that one person's experience doesn't make the argument) but for the record, I was sexually assaulted as a young minor in a bathroom by a strange man who came in after me. I was much too young, paralyzed by what he was doing, frozen, and not able to react; not mature and confident enough to react. No one will ever convince me that this isn't a real risk.
I'm honestly very sorry this happened to you. It is a real risk that men will do predatory things. This is a valid experience and it would explain you wanting to protect public bathrooms from dangers to you or to others.
But transgender people don't rape. There is no history of transgender people raping the sex they are transitioning to in public bathrooms. As I said previously, this is a stigma that is similar to when gay people were considered all to be homophobes by transgender people.
If there had been a transgender person in that bathroom with you as a child, they would have either scared off your attacker, or gotten help. But you were likely targeted because you were alone and vulnerable.
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But that's not why it sits wrong with me.
This is the most honest and open I think anyone's been in awhile speaking about transgender phobias. Sincerely, THANK YOU!
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I suppose you could say that I feel....offended that someone who is clearly not a woman feels they can take some pills, get some plastic surgery, and put on a dress and call themselves a woman. I feel like that diminishes women to the point of objectification, and that someone who does these things is making a mockery of womanhood.
I have a young friend, a lesbian, who dresses in drag, as a woman. You're reading that right-- she's a woman, dressing as an exaggerated idea of a woman. (Please, look this up, it's a real thing!) She does this to reclaim womanhood. Can she enter your (theoretical) public bathroom? She likes women. She has a fluid gender. But she isn't wanting to hurt you. She just wants to use the bathroom that she identifies with. She doesn't want to pee in a sink for others to see. She wants to get in, use a stall, and then get her make-up on point before she leaves the bathroom. She might ask you where you got a piece of jewelry she likes, or a lipstick color she likes, but she wouldn't flirt with you. It's a toilet, after all.
Someone who was born with a penis (and might have had it removed already) would be the same way in a women's restroom. She would just want to put on make-up and be a woman, in the space of women, without causing trouble. She would just want to be accepted as a woman and allowed to share that space so that she feels truly like a woman, much more than having breasts would make her feel.
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I have no doubt that there are some people who are genuinely suffering in this way with their gender identity. I do not accept that they are the high numbers of people that we believe or accept them to be. I don't believe that nature has gone quite that amok.
Consider that maybe the numbers were always this high, but these people previously used to suffer all their lives, or kill themselves. They had no acceptance in society until quite recently.
I am friendly with five people from various walks of life who have transitioned or are transitioning. I met one at at website for a comic book that is sympathetic to trans-folk (transitioned). I met another at a job in 2004 and she confided in me when I let her borrow that comic book I mentioned (Strangers in Paradise) (transitioned). I met one on a feminist website called Mookychick and we got close for a time (he's since kind of phased me out, which is alright) (mid-transition, last I heard). I met one at University, we had classes together and I think I used to annoy him a bit (not transitioning yet, just considering options). And the most recent one was someone very young I was mentoring at work, who looked like a dead ringer for my beloved ex-wife before transitioning began (very early stages still, just getting used to going from being 'Olivia' to being 'Nate').
if you are open to it and accepting of trans-folk, you will encounter many more transgender people then you could probably imagine.
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I posted this awhile back in a different transgender thread and got no real responses. I think it's worth re-posting here. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
I'll take a shot at it. From the start, I would point out that human beings are all born female. We transition in utero. So it is entirely possible that a mistake is made, now and then, in this process.
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I am a woman. However, my long hair, the size of my breasts, whether I've had children or not, wearing makeup, working in a certain field, looking pretty....these things don't define me as a woman. Correct? I mean, if I were to lose my breasts through mastectomy, I would still be a woman. And if I were to cut my hair short and wear flannel shirts and hiking boots, I am still a woman. While I may not be able to answer to anyone's satisfaction what does define me a woman, I'm going to go on the assumption that we can all agree that any one of these things does not define me as a woman.
So, if I were a man but felt mismatched with that and felt like I more accurately identified as a woman, why is it that the outward changes I make in order to fit in as a woman in society are those very things that actually don't define someone as a woman?
You would stop wearing clothes that identify you as a man.
You would have a big problem with stubble that begins to grow on your chin as you leave adolescence and become an adult.
You would feel that your penis and testicles are alien and want to be rid of them.
You would feel awkward and wrong when having sex, no matter who you were with, male or female, but you would still have sex, needing comfort and closeness.
You would seek hormone therapy that would slowly eradicate the beard your body naturally wants you to produce, which would also begin to make your mammary glands grow, in time.
You would wear makeup and want to fit in, the way a thirteen year old tomboy might begin to shed her boyish layers as she wants to be accepted with other girls-- which she knows to be her natural state as she has hormones telling her that she wants to change and become something new.
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Maybe I'm wrong, here. (Could very well be. I can count on one finger the number of transgender persons I know - that I'm aware of, anyway.) Do transgender persons try to assimilate into society by changing their outward appearance? If I'm correct in assuming so, then what does that get them? Our society already allows us to sleep with whomever we like, so he doesn't have to dress as a woman to be with a man. What other internal motivation would there be that doesn't rely on stereotypes of outward appearance and behavior?
Please don't think of it as wrong-- think of it as this is something you can't understand yet, but those of us who do get it should be encouraged by your openness to understanding it all.
Try to imagine all your life that you are told to be a boy, because you were born a boy, but you know you are a girl. No matter what argument is presented, you look at what boys are like and see that as alien. You see the way girls are and you realize, this is what I was meant for. Not a sexual attraction to girls (which can still be a factor), but an attraction to their identity. Their femininity. The way they are treated and sometimes mistreated. This isn't just a wish, for you. It's who you actually are, and your chances of becoming that person you and you alone know that you are, are very slim.
Plus, you have family who may not understand you, or friends, or co-workers. Who may see the direction you are going and are actively trying to close the doors you need to open. Who don't want to hear anything about these needs. They just think of you as a broken boy. And rather than help you to become a girl, they will let you know in micro-aggressions that they do not accept you as a woman.
Given all that, what would it mean to you to be able to walk down the street and have strangers accept your appearance as a woman? Gender is all performative. We recognize girly behavior and manly behavior. How much would it mean to you not to IMITATE these expressions, but to actually live in them, and be accepted for them? I think that's what it means: they just want to live as the gender they feel they actually should be. Some of them will never actually transition, but they don't want to suddenly become male in a dress. That kind of clashing nature would surely cause a very, very bad headache.
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And it often crosses my mind to wonder, if my assumptions are all correct: why is it okay to encourage using physical stereotypes as a way to express gender for our transgender folk, but it's frowned upon for those of us who aren't? An example of what I mean: It would be inappropriate for me to push my breasts up to an unnatural extent in order to, I don't know, go to a job interview. My breasts aren't who I am, and if I tried to make my appearance all about my breasts, then I would not be taken seriously. But if I'm a man who identifies as a woman, then somehow it's appropriate for me to...push my "breasts" up to an unnatural extent in order to go to a job interview. In that case, we'd be all "You go, girl!" but what's happening is that person is making their appearance all about their breasts - their physical femaleness* - but yet, they are taken seriously.
As a trans ally, I don't see any reason why you cannot be the woman you are, any more than I can't see any reason my friend can't dress up as a woman in drag despite actually being a woman. If you wear a push-up bra to an interview, or walk in naked, either is fine to me. The only question is, what are you being hired for, and will your employer, male or female, see the content of your character in these choices?
Say our hypothetical woman-born-a-man goes for an interview. If she (note the pronoun I am giving her) chooses to be a woman, she has choices. She can wear a waterbra. She can tart it up. Or she can look like a sharp, on point professional. She stands a better chance of getting the job if she proves that she can handles situations that are tense and unpredictable-- like attending a job interview as a sex other than what you were born as-- with grace, dignity, and professionalism.
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*not quite sure that's a word. :)
Worked for me... maybe Femininity?
Hope this has given you some perspective or something to consider. Feel free to contact me with any questions you have... what I don't have an answer for, I will ask those trans-folk I know for help.
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