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LadyPact -> RE: Trump Deportation Plan and bringing safe toilets back (2/26/2017 9:11:08 AM)
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ORIGINAL: Kaliko
FR
Not that it matters (because I know that one person's experience doesn't make the argument) but for the record, I was sexually assaulted as a young minor in a bathroom by a strange man who came in after me. I was much too young, paralyzed by what he was doing, frozen, and not able to react; not mature and confident enough to react. No one will ever convince me that this isn't a real risk.
The rest of the discussion aside, I do want to say that I am so sorry this happened to you.
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But that's not why it sits wrong with me. I suppose you could say that I feel....offended that someone who is clearly not a woman feels they can take some pills, get some plastic surgery, and put on a dress and call themselves a woman. I feel like that diminishes women to the point of objectification, and that someone who does these things is making a mockery of womanhood.
I have no doubt that there are some people who are genuinely suffering in this way with their gender identity. I do not accept that they are the high numbers of people that we believe or accept them to be. I don't believe that nature has gone quite that amok.
For this, I have to ask, do you feel the same about intersexed people?
HB2 is very specific about using the bathroom that corresponds with the gender listed on a person's birth certificate. Basically, this means that every intersexed person who had to deal with a doctor's best guess at birth is stuck with that gender, even if, as they grow up, they identify more as the other.
Does it matter if there are high numbers of these people or is it ok for us to make this even more difficult on them because not that many makes them inconsequential? Is there any other birth defect out there that we would say you don't matter since there's just not that many of you?
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I posted this awhile back in a different transgender thread and got no real responses. I think it's worth re-posting here. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Original Post:
I am a woman. However, my long hair, the size of my breasts, whether I've had children or not, wearing makeup, working in a certain field, looking pretty....these things don't define me as a woman. Correct? I mean, if I were to lose my breasts through mastectomy, I would still be a woman. And if I were to cut my hair short and wear flannel shirts and hiking boots, I am still a woman. While I may not be able to answer to anyone's satisfaction what does define me a woman, I'm going to go on the assumption that we can all agree that any one of these things does not define me as a woman.
So, if I were a man but felt mismatched with that and felt like I more accurately identified as a woman, why is it that the outward changes I make in order to fit in as a woman in society are those very things that actually don't define someone as a woman?
Maybe I'm wrong, here. (Could very well be. I can count on one finger the number of transgender persons I know - that I'm aware of, anyway.) Do transgender persons try to assimilate into society by changing their outward appearance? If I'm correct in assuming so, then what does that get them? Our society already allows us to sleep with whomever we like, so he doesn't have to dress as a woman to be with a man. What other internal motivation would there be that doesn't rely on stereotypes of outward appearance and behavior?
And it often crosses my mind to wonder, if my assumptions are all correct: why is it okay to encourage using physical stereotypes as a way to express gender for our transgender folk, but it's frowned upon for those of us who aren't? An example of what I mean: It would be inappropriate for me to push my breasts up to an unnatural extent in order to, I don't know, go to a job interview. My breasts aren't who I am, and if I tried to make my appearance all about my breasts, then I would not be taken seriously. But if I'm a man who identifies as a woman, then somehow it's appropriate for me to...push my "breasts" up to an unnatural extent in order to go to a job interview. In that case, we'd be all "You go, girl!" but what's happening is that person is making their appearance all about their breasts - their physical femaleness* - but yet, they are taken seriously.
Just some thoughts....
*not quite sure that's a word. :)
Mind if I take a stab at it?
(And, please, don't take me as the authority on this stuff. I'm just like anybody else trying to learn along the way.)
One thing that jumps out at me about this is, even though you don't specifically link any of your physical attributes as being what makes you a woman, you are also fortunate enough (as most of us are) not to have any attributes/body parts that contradict your identity as a woman. You're a woman who was born in a woman's body, who has has the right chromosomes and (hopefully) hormone balance that fit into that gender identity.
What if you didn't? Had you, for whatever reason, been born with different genitalia, but still felt exactly like you do now, as a woman, would you think you'd feel like a male, just because you had a penis? Everything about you, except that penis, screams "woman" to you. Well, now what? You're in the wrong body. You're trapped and there's no way for you to get out.
You said something really neat that I wanted to comment on, because you specifically mentioned things like your hair and your breasts. (I'm sure people are just going to love the crap out of me for this.) Those two 'appearance' things are just devastating to female cancer patients. Yes, they learn to deal with it. However, many still go through such an emotional upheaval because they loose attributes that are intimately tied to society's interpretation as female. Same thing happens to men with testicular cancer who have to have one or both of their testicles removed. People run a number on themselves over it. I have to say, just in my experience with talking to people about this kind of thing, it's got a different slant to it as opposed to, for example, people who have had to have a limb amputated. It's not just about having lost a piece of your body so that you feel less "whole" because that's hard enough on it's own. Those 'gender' parts of your body that you've always had, and are in some way, wrapped up in the gender identity that you know you are, it's a hard blow to lose them. We are a society that still thinks body parts = gender.
Somebody can help me out on this one with a good link. You might feel that if you 'push up' your breasts or wear a low cut top to an interview means that you won't be taken seriously. Yet, studies show that two women walking in for a job with the same qualifications, the deciding factor of who gets the job will be based on which is the more attractive. This is something I've experienced, myself. I went back to work about six months ago. The gal who greeted me at the front went to get the person I was interviewing with. While it was completely unprofessional, I overheard her say, "gosh, she's pretty." (Which, I'm not. I look like most people's grandmothers.) Right then, I knew I had the job.
Which, btw, up until December, one of my fellow employees was a trans* man. Why I picked up on this rather than anybody else who hadn't seen his documentation, proving he was legal to work, I couldn't say. Maybe it was because I've got some experience with being familiar with trans* persons in out kink communities. I don't know. However, after he left the job, I had fifty co-workers who exclaimed in surprise, "Ray was a woman?" They had no idea that Ray had tits or that his driver's license said female.
This is my opinion, only. Yes, I do think that most trans* folk just want to assimilate into society. They aren't screaming at everybody that they were born with the wrong bits or trying to be noticed in some way. Mostly, I tend to see them as just like anybody else. I mean, you don't want everybody who ever crossed your path to look at you like you're some kind of freak of nature. You don't want people looking at you and wondering if you're 'woman enough' to enter a bathroom. You don't want people treating you differently than the way you look. Other people don't want that, either.
Oh, I almost forgot. A part of what you said above leads me to think you are confusing gender with sexuality. Gender isn't about who you are sexually attracted to. Who you sleep with (or want to sleep with) has very little to do with who you are as a person. One is your identity and the other is your sexual orientation, which are two entirely different things.
Hope you guys are doing well. It's been a pleasure talking to you.
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