Political topics that we can support

Political topics that we can support (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Zero Tolerence for illegal immigrents.

6% (13)

Intelligent gun control legislation

6% (13)

Intelligent health care reform (since the ACA may be going away)

8% (16)

Welfare reform, explain how please

4% (9)

Limited foreign involvment of US military

6% (13)

Stronger border security (i.e drug and illegal aliens)

6% (13)

sensible enviromental protection (stopping excessive pollution)

8% (17)

Education reform

7% (14)

College finance reform

6% (13)

Tax code reform (explain where changes are needed)

6% (12)

Zero guns

3% (6)

Term limits for congress

7% (15)

Alternative energy research incentives

7% (15)

Infrastructure rebuilding

10% (21)

Mandatory public service (does not have to be military)

3% (6)

Total Votes : 196

(last vote on : 3/9/2017 6:01:16 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

jlf1961 -> Political topics that we can support (2/28/2017 3:11:42 PM)
We all know there are some things we are going to disagree on. There are some things we can agree on up to a point. However, in trying to find common ground, we sort of need to know where to start, so in an effort to find that common ground.... Some of the choices will require some explanation on your part explaining what you mean when you agree to it, and I am even including some things I do not agree with at all. And due to board limits, please fill free to add something.

Musicmystery -> RE: Political topics that we can support (2/28/2017 5:59:27 PM)
Not trying to be difficult -- some of these I'm unsure of because I don't know what they would mean: for example, education reform could be great or horrific, depending on what we consider "reform." Others were clearer choices. Still others I'd favor but not in the absolute language presented.

jlf1961 -> RE: Political topics that we can support (2/28/2017 7:20:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Not trying to be difficult -- some of these I'm unsure of because I don't know what they would mean: for example, education reform could be great or horrific, depending on what we consider "reform." Others were clearer choices. Still others I'd favor but not in the absolute language presented. Not trying to be difficult either, but seriously, when have you not agreed to something with stipulations and made those stipulations known? I.E, okay, you agree education needs reformed, and it could be a horror or a great thing, so, sir, how would YOU propose to start? And at least one was an absolute because there are some who would want ZERO gun ownership.

Greta75 -> RE: Political topics that we can support (2/28/2017 11:43:27 PM)
Zero Gun Ownership works in my country to keep gun crime down. No guns, no gun crime. But we don't need Guns for hunting for food. So..., might be a different case in US. Here are the others: Zero Tolerence for illegal immigrants (YES, no brainer) Intelligent health care reform (since the ACA may be going away) (US has the most expensive health cost in the entire universe, so this is a huge problem area, they need to get everything under control) Welfare reform, explain how please (Not knowing indepthly of how welfare works now, can't explain how. But in my country, our government guarantee jobs to people who are struggling, as long as they aren't fussy about the jobs they gotta do. We call it "work fare". They only get "wages supplement" if they took on the jobs that the government found for them. The government will help them with a temporary roof until they can afford their own too. Our welfare are very practical welfare. We don't do, "Here's the money, fend for yourself." What happens is, that goes to drugs and cigarettes and gawd knows what else, and they are probably still jobless. It does not work. Welfare should be practical. In my country the government pays for their upgrading education to match their skills to jobs that has more vacancy too, if they are the struggling population. Practical solutions to help them become independent. ) Stronger border security (i.e drug and illegal aliens) (YES) Sensible enviromental protection (stopping excessive pollution) (Necessary) Education reform (The government should do it like my country and make public schools the best schools in the country. It doesn't make sense to not make public schools better than private schools. When public schools are better than private school. All the poorest kids with good grades and a strong interest in learning and improving themselves will get the best education. Expensive Private schools are for spoilt rich kids with bad grades who can't get into public school due to bad grades. That's how it works in my country. And this has worked very well to help many poor kids out of their poverty cycle.) College finance reform (0% interest loan is what I support, ironically a Hillary idea) Tax code reform (How about a Tax Code where you don't have hire expensive accountants to manage your taxes? And stop taxing citizens who are working overseas. They gotta pay tax in that country and as well as in the US, that seem unfair. No other countries does that! Especially when US does not have enough jobs for ALL of their citizens, why are they punishing Americans who work overseas?) Zero guns (YES, works perfectly here) Term limits for congress (Aren't there already Term Limits?) Alternative energy research incentives (Yes) Infrastructure rebuilding (Definitely very Important)

Termyn8or -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 12:49:37 AM)
FR jlf, I have tried this in the past and it failed. T^T

heavyblinker -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 1:58:58 AM)
No, as a matter of fact we can't unanimously support sweeping but unspecified change for the sake of change.

jlf1961 -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 3:45:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heavyblinker No, as a matter of fact we can't unanimously support sweeping but unspecified change for the sake of change. The United States has done so in the past, The Emancipation Proclamation, the Civil Rights acts, School desegregation. But nothing I listed is sweeping change for the sake of change, with the exception of zero gun ownership, every item is something that needs to be addressed, and as yet, has not been adequately addressed in any real fashion. The Affordable Care Act was a start, but a really bad one, and pushed through with zero input from the other side of the aisle, in point of fact, they were basically shut out of the process. Education in this country sucks, especially when states can dictate changes in text books in order to white wash historic facts. Illegal Immigrants is another major problem, amnesty is a bullshit move, basically rewarding people for getting away with breaking the law. The US Tax code is so convoluted that IRS agents have issues keeping it straight, and when corporations can make billions in profits and pay almost zero in taxes, you have a problem. You got some folks paying upwards of 39% tax rates, which is an incentive NOT to make money, which means zero incentive to invest.

heavyblinker -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 3:53:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: heavyblinker No, as a matter of fact we can't unanimously support sweeping but unspecified change for the sake of change. The United States has done so in the past, The Emancipation Proclamation, the Civil Rights acts, School desegregation. None of those things were change for the sake of change. My point was that you don't change things just because you don't think they're working, you change them because you know that doing so will be better for everyone. Trump is the ultimate change for the sake of change president... it's like people have no concept of just how much more fucked up the already fucked up system can get.

jlf1961 -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 6:54:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heavyblinker quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: heavyblinker No, as a matter of fact we can't unanimously support sweeping but unspecified change for the sake of change. The United States has done so in the past, The Emancipation Proclamation, the Civil Rights acts, School desegregation. None of those things were change for the sake of change. My point was that you don't change things just because you don't think they're working, you change them because you know that doing so will be better for everyone. Trump is the ultimate change for the sake of change president... it's like people have no concept of just how much more fucked up the already fucked up system can get. And the stuff I listed is working? Seriously? In the sixties, the US educational system was ranked in the top five in the world, now we rank 14. The ACA did not accomplish half of what it was supposed to. The system that would make back ground checks for gun purchases actually work is not mandatory The welfare system is still over burdened with people who could conceivably work, but dont. The border with Mexico is so insecure it aint even funny. Financing a college education basically means a lifetime of debt. The Infrastructure in the US is a mess, 80% of highway bridges are sub standard, 90% of dams are listed as hazardous, and the highways are a joke The tax code, as I said, is such a mess that the people in charge of enforcing it has problems understanding it. And sending US troops to solve problems in every fucked up country is getting old. Those people enlisted to defend the US, not solve problems everywhere else, and many are stationed in countries where the people dont want them. I did not even mention the fact the US government has too many agencies with overlapping areas of authority, and some are downright fighting each other. >> A good example is a guy I worked for on Key West, owned a marina/boat yard with Medium (150 to 300 foot) docking capabilities. Per US Maritime harbor regulations, he began a project to renovate and update the facilities. As soon as the work began, the Department of Interior nailed his ass for damage to wetlands, i.e the high tide marsh that had begun to take over an area where a sea wall had collapsed after a storm. So the Interior department was hitting him with a half million dollar fine for damage to wetlands, and he was being nailed for half million a month for not maintaining the port facilities.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 7:26:13 AM)
FR: I marked my choices, last night, but wanted to take some time to truly gather my thoughts. First things, first: We need to zero out "ZERO TOLERANCE" for anything. I find it mildly amusing how the same people that want "Zero Tolerance" for guns and "Zero Tolerance" for "hate speech" are most of the same people who PREACH tolerance for Islamism and "unpopular" ideas. Zero tolerance - as I've been saying for decades - is what brings us things like an eight year old being suspended for biting his Pop Tart© into the shape of gun and even little "Junior Johnny Jihadi" being suspended for his rather questionable "clock". I found it amusing how many people (even here) spoke out of opposite sides of their mouths on these two issues, but these are the kinds of things that "Zero Tolerance" gives us. So, I kind of left those words out, when I was marking my answers. Illegal immigrants are, by definition, either felons or invaders and should be treated as such. By the same token, I find I have some compassion for what Ol' Dumbo Ears referred to as "Dreamers". Show me a piece of intelligent gun legislation and I'll support it. Until then, stop trying to deny me my God-given rights. "Intelligent" Health Care reform? I thought that's what the ACA was? Oh! That's right. That piece of shit that would have been more accurately named: "A Love Letter to the Insurance Industry" was more of a power-grab for the socialists in charge to control 1/6 of the American economy. So ... what would "intelligent" health care reform look like? I have been screaming about tort reform and holding doctors to the Hippocratic Oath for decades, now. No one's listened. Welfare reform can't even be discussed until we improve the economy by quite a bit. ACA helped to severely limit full-time employment in this country and it will need to be eradicated and many more jobs created before we can start showing non-working members of society what "tough love" really is. Limited Foreign Involvement has got to be my favorite on the list! I'm an isolationist (essentially). guess where I'm going to come down on the issue? If our "friends" in the world truly need our help, they can pay us for our services. Stronger Border Security is a no-brainer. Build the fuckin' wall and shoot any invaders that are found going over, under, around, or through it. Education reform is another joke. How about we stop indoctrinating and start educating? Tax Code: consumption tax. 'Nuff said. Zero guns? Fuck you. Part of my God-given rights is LIFE and I will defend it, whether you want to let me do so or not. Term Limits are how our founders imagined elected officials; people that would take two, four, six, or eight years out of their life to serve their neighbors and then GO BACK to farming or selling goods in their shops. There was no "ruling class". Term Limit = One term. Thank you for your service. Now, dust off. Alternative energy is an excellent idea so we can stop financing DAESH's war against us. Infrastructure rebuilding is a desperate need. Not an "idea". It NEEDS to be done to ensure safety, in many cases. I am against any kind of compulsory service except in times of war (which, in my mind, means we've been attacked). Michael

Musicmystery -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 7:48:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Not trying to be difficult -- some of these I'm unsure of because I don't know what they would mean: for example, education reform could be great or horrific, depending on what we consider "reform." Others were clearer choices. Still others I'd favor but not in the absolute language presented. Not trying to be difficult either, but seriously, when have you not agreed to something with stipulations and made those stipulations known? I.E, okay, you agree education needs reformed, and it could be a horror or a great thing, so, sir, how would YOU propose to start? And at least one was an absolute because there are some who would want ZERO gun ownership. I did select four things I could get behind as stated.

PeonForHer -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 9:19:23 AM)
Time and time again I've been surprised by issues on which I'd once assumed there'd have been a consensus, only to be apprised of just how much the opposite is true in American politics. The three issues of climate change protection, gun-ownership and health care (nationalised v private) stick out the most for me - as, I suspect, they would for many if not most people in advanced industrialised countries outside the USA. There's not one thing on your list, Jeff, that I could imagine would have consensual support.

WhoreMods -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 10:15:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 Zero Gun Ownership works in my country to keep gun crime down. No guns, no gun crime. But we don't need Guns for hunting for food. So..., might be a different case in US. Not really. You don't use a bolt action rifle or a shotgun for spree killing, or even a robbery.

PeonForHer -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 10:51:26 AM)
quote: Not really. You don't use a bolt action rifle or a shotgun for spree killing, or even a robbery. I keep forgetting you live north of the Watford Gap, WM. Thanks for that reminder.

jlf1961 -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 10:54:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 Zero Gun Ownership works in my country to keep gun crime down. No guns, no gun crime. But we don't need Guns for hunting for food. So..., might be a different case in US. Not really. You don't use a bolt action rifle or a shotgun for spree killing, or even a robbery. And contrary to what the anti gun people would have you believe, the 'assault rifles' are rare in spree and mass shootings and robberies, the most used gun is a semi auto pistol. Assault rifles are used less than 15% of the time. In 2016, it was 11% according to the FBI files. Of the 133 incidents last year that qualifies as mass shootings, only one was there evidence the shooter was prohibited by federal law from possessing guns due to severe mental illness. In 15 other incidents (11 percent), there was there was evidence that concerns about the mental health of the shooter had been brought to the attention of a medical practitioner, school official, or legal authority prior to the shooting. Of the rest, there was sufficient evidence to judge whether the shooter was a prohibited gun possessor in 116 of the 133 incidents (87%). In other words, IF the National Criminal Data Base (which also would have records of people with restraining orders against them) was mandatory for all jurisdictions to use (meaning that all of the things that are on the Federal Firearms regulations that would prevent a person from legally buying a gun was reported by all law enforcement agencies and courts) 116 of the shootings probably would not have taken place with a legally purchased gun because the information would have shown up blocking the sale. This fact is something the anti gun lobby either chooses to ignore completely, or really could care less about how it affects gun purchases. Instead they choose to push bans, and other extreme measures. As for semi automatic rifles, the so called assault rifle. I mentioned in another thread about Feral hogs. I earn extra cash eradicating Feral hogs in my area. A bolt action will not cut it since hogs travel in packs, and around here, you are dealing with 15 to 30 animals. And while the goal is one shot one kill, some of these animals can shrug off being hit by 2 or 3 large bore rounds, unless you can actually get them in the perfect spot for a fast kill, and even then they may shrug it off. I witnessed personally a big boar take a .308 (7.62mm NATO) between the eyes and keep charging and ripped up a 4x4 tire on the truck my partner and I were shooting from. It took 6 more shots to put that bastard down. A lot of hog hunters are going to the .458 socom which is a large round and is fired from a modified AR15 style rifle. And I have seen a few boars this year that I would rather have a fucking minigun to deal with (or a 20 mm anti tank rifle.)

PeonForHer -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 10:58:56 AM)
JLF, Here's an important question for you. Please take your time in answering it, for I know it will go to the core of what you essentially are: What would you give up first, you beard, or your guns?

jlf1961 -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 12:43:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer JLF, Here's an important question for you. Please take your time in answering it, for I know it will go to the core of what you essentially are: What would you give up first, you beard, or your guns? The beard. I grew up with guns, started shooting when I was about 8, was given my first rifle when I was 12. That kind of dictated my path in the army, I was a sniper. My adult life has been in either specialized armed security or Law Enforcement. I supplement my grocery budget with meat I have hunted myself, during the appropriate season. I also earn a decent part time income eradicating feral pigs, ranchers and farmers will pay anything from $150 to $400 per hog depending on size, and I keep the meat. Boar meat I have processed for dog food, the sow meat for my own use. Then there are the hides. Pigskin is still a good leather for some applications, deer hide for others. I also hunt antelope further west from here, and up in the panhandle I actually go for buffalo since the population has boomed in recent decades. But then there is another point to be raised, we still have wild predators in this country. Locally they range from coyotes to the occasional Mexican gray wolf and Mexican panther. Not to mention the all too abundant rattlesnakes. And since I refuse to live in an urban area, you will not see me walking on warm days without a pistol. So, what's your point? You see guns as a threat to public safety, and they can be. I see them as tools. So my answer probably gets me marked "Crazy gun owner with the possibility of going on a shooting rampage."

WhoreMods -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 12:43:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 Zero Gun Ownership works in my country to keep gun crime down. No guns, no gun crime. But we don't need Guns for hunting for food. So..., might be a different case in US. Not really. You don't use a bolt action rifle or a shotgun for spree killing, or even a robbery. And contrary to what the anti gun people would have you believe, the 'assault rifles' are rare in spree and mass shootings and robberies, the most used gun is a semi auto pistol. Assault rifles are used less than 15% of the time. In 2016, it was 11% according to the FBI files. Of the 133 incidents last year that qualifies as mass shootings, only one was there evidence the shooter was prohibited by federal law from possessing guns due to severe mental illness. In 15 other incidents (11 percent), there was there was evidence that concerns about the mental health of the shooter had been brought to the attention of a medical practitioner, school official, or legal authority prior to the shooting. Of the rest, there was sufficient evidence to judge whether the shooter was a prohibited gun possessor in 116 of the 133 incidents (87%). In other words, IF the National Criminal Data Base (which also would have records of people with restraining orders against them) was mandatory for all jurisdictions to use (meaning that all of the things that are on the Federal Firearms regulations that would prevent a person from legally buying a gun was reported by all law enforcement agencies and courts) 116 of the shootings probably would not have taken place with a legally purchased gun because the information would have shown up blocking the sale. This fact is something the anti gun lobby either chooses to ignore completely, or really could care less about how it affects gun purchases. Instead they choose to push bans, and other extreme measures. As for semi automatic rifles, the so called assault rifle. I mentioned in another thread about Feral hogs. I earn extra cash eradicating Feral hogs in my area. A bolt action will not cut it since hogs travel in packs, and around here, you are dealing with 15 to 30 animals. And while the goal is one shot one kill, some of these animals can shrug off being hit by 2 or 3 large bore rounds, unless you can actually get them in the perfect spot for a fast kill, and even then they may shrug it off. I witnessed personally a big boar take a .308 (7.62mm NATO) between the eyes and keep charging and ripped up a 4x4 tire on the truck my partner and I were shooting from. It took 6 more shots to put that bastard down. A lot of hog hunters are going to the .458 socom which is a large round and is fired from a modified AR15 style rifle. And I have seen a few boars this year that I would rather have a fucking minigun to deal with (or a 20 mm anti tank rifle.) It would simplify things a lot if they could just come up with a list of people who are banned from buying firearms and distribute it, yes. It wouldn't be any more complicated or difficult than the no fly list, and the possibility of legal reprisals for selling guns to people on a banned list might be a deterrent to licensed gun sellers as well. That'd be a definite win if they made an effort to enforce the legislation that is already in place to stop the mentally ill from buying guns. Good point about the hogs. I didn't realise those went around in packs. From the way you were talking about the buggers elsewhere, I thought they were rogue males wandering around in a strop on their own, or something.

WickedsDesire -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 1:26:28 PM)
Bubonic plague WM may have been hedgehogs though (fleas) or rancid boar meat making em all daft in the head

BamaD -> RE: Political topics that we can support (3/1/2017 2:36:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhoreMods quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 Zero Gun Ownership works in my country to keep gun crime down. No guns, no gun crime. But we don't need Guns for hunting for food. So..., might be a different case in US. Not really. You don't use a bolt action rifle or a shotgun for spree killing, or even a robbery. Whitman used a bolt action rifle. In Aurora Ca the AR jammed almost instantly and most of the damage was done with a shotgun.

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