RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap

Page: << < prev 2 3 [4] 5 6 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 2:21:31 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Men at the top want to deal with men at the top. Women make good presentations, men close the deals... with each other. It's a nature thing.

Explanations like the above are favoured by the uninformed. It's an idiot thing.

_____________________________

(in reply to tamaka)

Profile

Post #: 61

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 3:50:51 AM

Awareness

Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
if you have evidence of structural sexism that disadvantages women in terms of the jobs they choose, then share that.

She doesn't, because it doesn't exist. Feminists believe in their own tortured view of the world, in defiance of logic, reason or even contrary evidence. Because feelings should have more weight than fact.

Feminism is its own truthiness.

_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to bounty44)

Profile

Post #: 62

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 4:44:25 AM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Men at the top want to deal with men at the top. Women make good presentations, men close the deals... with each other. It's a nature thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's bollocks, isn't it?

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to tamaka)

Profile

Post #: 63

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 5:20:35 AM

Awareness

Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Men at the top want to deal with men at the top. Women make good presentations, men close the deals... with each other. It's a nature thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's bollocks, isn't it?

Do you have evidence contradicting the proposition?

_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Profile

Post #: 64

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 6:09:46 AM

InfoMan

Posts: 471
Joined: 2/20/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

Mmmmm.

Interesting and deliberately misleading editing of my post.

The whole basis of the thread is that the gender wage gap is a conspiracy and that it is a "feminazi theory".

The posters who have argued that the gender wage gap exists have not sought to take an extreme position or argue that the labour market does not also exploit some men as was suggested in previous posts.

In that sense those posters are not making "feminazi" claims backed by a complex anti-male agenda, they are "merely" refuting the proposition that the gender wage gap is some kind of dangerous myth dreamed up by extremists. You ask "What is the point of that?" Well, for starters it confirms that there is no conspiracy because the wage gap does indeed exist and, by implication, trying to understand it and/or tackle the consequences is a worthwhile endeavour.

That is the sense in which I made that statement. The post is there. People can just scroll up and read it.

I will repeat the statement that "no-one was motivated to start a thread to point out that the gender pay gap exists" but since a thread was started which claimed it was some kind of plot, it is perfectly understandable that some posters would choose to refute that claim.

Except not - you're not producing a point of clarification and instead simply acting in opposition to those that are arguing against the 'feminazi theory' which propagates the .78 cents per every 1 dollar myth. Sitting there and simply stating that a wage gap 'does exist' while not also producing a point of clarification as to the severity, level, or your stance is not only counter productive, but it is entirely misleading because it invites Criticism of the .78 cent/1 dollar stance specifically which is not what you're arguing.

It leads to the capability to try and claim higher ground because you are 'being sensible' while your opposition is 'over reacting' because they are treating you like a Feminazi theorist.

So what's the point in arguing if you're not going to provide a point of clarification to your statements which only invites 'over-reacting' criticisms of your defenses? It is not productive, it is not endearing, and it is entirely misleading...

(in reply to longwayhome)

Profile

Post #: 65

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 6:19:07 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

Awareness
Do you have evidence contradicting the proposition?

The kind of crude simplistic sexual stereotyping and genetic determinism displayed in tamaka's post has been abandoned for at least half a century by academic specialists in this area.

If you knew anything about these issues, you wouldn't need evidence - you would know what nonsense tamaka's proposition is. If you knew anything about these issues, you would know that crude sexual stereotyping went out with the pixies. It is a measure of how limited your grasp of these issues is, it is an implicit admission of ignorance that you need to have evidence to prove such an elementary error incorrect.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/9/2017 6:21:02 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Awareness)

Profile

Post #: 66

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 6:41:03 AM

InfoMan

Posts: 471
Joined: 2/20/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

And women just "choose" not to be promoted to the very top positions in companies?

And women just "choose" to work in jobs where the pay is lower despite the equivalence of their qualifications?

And women just "choose" workplaces where working practices fit in with family life?

Yes, they choose not to be.

Which i find ironic that you postulate this line of questioning which is a narrow observation of a binary choice when the fact is that it is a much more complex convoluted series of choices which an individual has made which effectively 'chooses' for them, given that you defend your stance of 'there is a wage gap' with the statements you've made in the past:

quote:

This is not a binary argument. At the extreme one side can claim that nothing has changed and the other that the wage gap is a myth...

What I see from posters who argue that there is still a gender pay gap is the recognition that it is a complex issue...

It is the oldest trick in the book to paint those who disagree with you as extremists...

quote:

The economy and the labour market are not run by some magical invisible hand. They are run by human beings (largely men of course) and those people do not always make choices which favour women. Generally there is over-supply of labour and it takes quite severe under-supply before individual parts of the labour market switch to supporting women to work as a way of increasing labour supply.

Actually it is - it is called the Almighty Dollar.
And it is entirely uncaring, apathetic, and unbiased.

It exports jobs to China, Customer Support to India, Manufacturing to Mexico...
If one change can save 2 cents on the dollar for a company, then it is a change that will be made.
Illegal Laborers... low wage immigrants... If they can be exploited to save a nickle or dime, then they will be exploited.
morals... legalities... The Almighty dollar cares not.

If a gender gap genuinely existed, then profitable companies would of been taking on females like no bodies business in order to exploit the gap and help their bottom line. The fact that this does not happen implies that a Gender Based wage gap does not exist - and that discrepancies in pay are not the result of exploitation but rather derived from individual choices and limitations.

To imply that this needs to be fixed is tantamount to saying that "We should fuck over the Free Market because it is unfair..."

Also - quoting individual lines is not 'deliberately misleading editing.'
Partially because to 'edit' something i would have to modify the content, rather then narrowing the focus down to key statements. but mostly because in a forum of public debate such replies it would be worded:
You said: (statement) - allow me the chance to respond to it.

(in reply to longwayhome)

Profile

Post #: 67

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 4:51:54 PM

longwayhome

Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan

To imply that this needs to be fixed is tantamount to saying that "We should fuck over the Free Market because it is unfair..."

Thanks for re-expressing my words to create a statement I didn't make.

The recent research on behavioural economics suggests that economies are exactly human systems and that outcomes are neither inevitable, unchangeable or the same in different markets. Human perception of risk and economic benefit is not the same in every country.

There is plenty of research which suggests that companies who invest long term in their workers, providing flexibility for both sexes, have better longevity and make more money in the long term. It is these human factors which mark much of the difference between the UK economy and European countries such as Denmark and Germany. UK companies are more likely to pursue short term profit and struggle in the longer term. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the US economy is more similar to the UK model than the European one.

In other words the very actions which provide more equality in the workplace have a long term effect on the bottom line by actually increasing long term profits. Companies don't need to do this because it is "fair". There is a rational economic argument as well. Incidentally companies which take this approach often invest less abroad by concentrating on higher value added.

Different markets work in different ways, some of the reasons are structural but often the differences are cultural and therefore human.

It's nothing to do with a position of "we should fuck over the free market", it's about a more nuanced understanding of markets.

Finally it's no good saying that there is no evidence or published support for my views on these subjects. You are free not to agree with me and indeed there are publications which support your view. What I find difficult is a constant accusation about lack of evidence when it simply isn't true. My views are backed up by perfectly respectable research that you happen not to like.

You and those who agree with you are hardly offering a detailed, referenced and balanced literature search, followed by detailed original research. Neither am I of course. You are quoting internet articles, which is fair enough, but it doesn't give you an intellectual justification for saying my views are wrong because they are not backed up by evidence. I am making no such claim about your views, because doing so is just a classic internet tactic to rubbish what someone else is saying and I'm not going to play that game.

You don't agree with me. I can see that my refusal to go away with my tail between my legs is irritating you. I'm not belittling your argument or claiming you have not been diligent with your research. I'm just disagreeing with you.

There are publications which support both sides of the argument, so it's hardly likely that there is going to be any knockout blow here.

(in reply to InfoMan)

Profile

Post #: 68

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 5:03:15 PM

Nnanji

Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

There is a fatality gap, which is sometimes reflected in pay (e.g. deep sea divers on oil installations) and sometimes not (e.g. construction workers on building sites). And it is true most of these jobs are done by men.

All the so called "legitimate" reasons for a gender pay gap still do not explain the extent of lower average pay and the absence of women in areas such as senior positions in so many companies.

It doesn't explain it if you simply won't listen to those who explain it to you.

(in reply to longwayhome)

Profile

Post #: 69

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 5:23:07 PM

tamaka

Posts: 5079
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Men at the top want to deal with men at the top. Women make good presentations, men close the deals... with each other. It's a nature thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's bollocks, isn't it?

No it isn't. Not in the high tech industry anyway. That's how it works for the most part when you are talking large corporate contracts.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Profile

Post #: 70

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 5:24:36 PM

tamaka

Posts: 5079
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Awareness
Do you have evidence contradicting the proposition?

The kind of crude simplistic sexual stereotyping and genetic determinism displayed in tamaka's post has been abandoned for at least half a century by academic specialists in this area.

If you knew anything about these issues, you wouldn't need evidence - you would know what nonsense tamaka's proposition is. If you knew anything about these issues, you would know that crude sexual stereotyping went out with the pixies. It is a measure of how limited your grasp of these issues is, it is an implicit admission of ignorance that you need to have evidence to prove such an elementary error incorrect.

Where do you get that information? Not from the real world.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Profile

Post #: 71

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 8:55:46 PM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

Men at the top want to deal with men at the top. Women make good presentations, men close the deals... with each other. It's a nature thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's bollocks, isn't it?

No. Not if you believe all the research that says women are superior at communication.

Women must not be as good at closing the deal because their are all sorts of seminars and such designed for women to learn how to do to it effectively. Even as to asking for and getting a pay increase. Why do women need all the extra help if they are equal with men in that ability?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Profile

Post #: 72

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 9:51:30 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Awareness
Do you have evidence contradicting the proposition?

The kind of crude simplistic sexual stereotyping and genetic determinism displayed in tamaka's post has been abandoned for at least half a century by academic specialists in this area.

If you knew anything about these issues, you wouldn't need evidence - you would know what nonsense tamaka's proposition is. If you knew anything about these issues, you would know that crude sexual stereotyping went out with the pixies. It is a measure of how limited your grasp of these issues is, it is an implicit admission of ignorance that you need to have evidence to prove such an elementary error incorrect.

Where do you get that information? Not from the real world.

It would be far more pertinent for you to tell us where you got your quaint ideas from. That is to say, if they're not pure conjecture, which they most likely are.

One place you can find reliable information is: "Myths of Gender" By Anne Fausto-Sterling, Professor of Biology at Brown University. Fausto-Sterling systematically demolishes the myth of biological gender determination, which is the notion that underwrites all the varieties of crude sexual stereotyping such as the one you have advanced.

_____________________________

(in reply to tamaka)

Profile

Post #: 73

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 9:54:36 PM

tamaka

Posts: 5079
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Awareness
Do you have evidence contradicting the proposition?

The kind of crude simplistic sexual stereotyping and genetic determinism displayed in tamaka's post has been abandoned for at least half a century by academic specialists in this area.

If you knew anything about these issues, you wouldn't need evidence - you would know what nonsense tamaka's proposition is. If you knew anything about these issues, you would know that crude sexual stereotyping went out with the pixies. It is a measure of how limited your grasp of these issues is, it is an implicit admission of ignorance that you need to have evidence to prove such an elementary error incorrect.

Where do you get that information? Not from the real world.

It would be far more pertinent for you to tell us where you got your quaint ideas from. That is to say, if they're not pure conjecture, which they most likely are.

One place you can find reliable information is: "Myths of Gender" By Anne Fausto-Sterling, Professor of Biology at Brown University. Fausto-Sterling systematically demolishes the myth of biological gender determination, which is the notion that underwrites all the varieties of crude sexual stereotyping such as the one you have advanced.

Omg. You know, you can design and create research, especially in psychology, to 'find' anything you want.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Profile

Post #: 74

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 10:15:05 PM

respectmen

Posts: 2042
Joined: 8/28/2015
Status: offline

Tamaka, nearly everything from feminism is made up by fantasy and not fact.

(in reply to tamaka)

Profile

Post #: 75

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/9/2017 10:21:47 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Awareness
Do you have evidence contradicting the proposition?

The kind of crude simplistic sexual stereotyping and genetic determinism displayed in tamaka's post has been abandoned for at least half a century by academic specialists in this area.

If you knew anything about these issues, you wouldn't need evidence - you would know what nonsense tamaka's proposition is. If you knew anything about these issues, you would know that crude sexual stereotyping went out with the pixies. It is a measure of how limited your grasp of these issues is, it is an implicit admission of ignorance that you need to have evidence to prove such an elementary error incorrect.

Where do you get that information? Not from the real world.

It would be far more pertinent for you to tell us where you got your quaint ideas from. That is to say, if they're not pure conjecture, which they most likely are.

One place you can find reliable information is: "Myths of Gender" By Anne Fausto-Sterling, Professor of Biology at Brown University. Fausto-Sterling systematically demolishes the myth of biological gender determination, which is the notion that underwrites all the varieties of crude sexual stereotyping such as the one you have advanced.

Omg. You know, you can design and create research, especially in psychology, to 'find' anything you want.

You can choose to believe anything that you wish. You can choose to ignore evidence based conclusions that have been replicated in hundreds if not thousands of studies over the years, tangible physical evidence not observational summations (as in psychology), because that evidence doesn't mesh with your quaint folk homilies or you can be an adult about it. Your choice.

_____________________________

(in reply to tamaka)

Profile

Post #: 76

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/10/2017 1:13:53 AM

Greta75

Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline

FR

Actually I feel like this gender wage gap is a stupid debate.

1) Men who believes gender wage gap is a myth ALSO believes in Equal Pay for Equal Work for Women.

2) And people bringing awareness to gender wage gaps issues ALSO believes in Equal Pay for Equal Work for Women.

Technically, BOTH sides are on the same page.

And all I care about is. Everybody supports Equal Pay for Equal Work, Right?

Anybody against Equal Pay for Equal Work here?

Because IF we all agree that Equal Pay MUST be paid to both male and females for Equal Work, then there is no issue.

The issue is cracking down on ANY COMPANY not practicing this! And making sure BOTH genders are protected.

To say that Gender Wage Gap does not exist in this World at all is definitely not accurate.

I think the whole point is to have a system where it is illegal to pay deferring genders differently. And have a whistle blowing hotline, so all these companies doing this can be investigated.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Profile

Post #: 77

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/10/2017 7:04:46 AM

Nnanji

Posts: 4552
Joined: 3/29/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Awareness
Do you have evidence contradicting the proposition?

The kind of crude simplistic sexual stereotyping and genetic determinism displayed in tamaka's post has been abandoned for at least half a century by academic specialists in this area.

If you knew anything about these issues, you wouldn't need evidence - you would know what nonsense tamaka's proposition is. If you knew anything about these issues, you would know that crude sexual stereotyping went out with the pixies. It is a measure of how limited your grasp of these issues is, it is an implicit admission of ignorance that you need to have evidence to prove such an elementary error incorrect.

Where do you get that information? Not from the real world.

It would be far more pertinent for you to tell us where you got your quaint ideas from. That is to say, if they're not pure conjecture, which they most likely are.

One place you can find reliable information is: "Myths of Gender" By Anne Fausto-Sterling, Professor of Biology at Brown University. Fausto-Sterling systematically demolishes the myth of biological gender determination, which is the notion that underwrites all the varieties of crude sexual stereotyping such as the one you have advanced.

Omg. You know, you can design and create research, especially in psychology, to 'find' anything you want.

You can choose to believe anything that you wish. You can choose to ignore evidence based conclusions that have been replicated in hundreds if not thousands of studies over the years, tangible physical evidence not observational summations (as in psychology), because that evidence doesn't mesh with your quaint folk homilies or you can be an adult about it. Your choice.

Hum, name me nine hundred and seventy seven.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Profile

Post #: 78

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/10/2017 12:25:19 PM

tamaka

Posts: 5079
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Awareness
Do you have evidence contradicting the proposition?

The kind of crude simplistic sexual stereotyping and genetic determinism displayed in tamaka's post has been abandoned for at least half a century by academic specialists in this area.

If you knew anything about these issues, you wouldn't need evidence - you would know what nonsense tamaka's proposition is. If you knew anything about these issues, you would know that crude sexual stereotyping went out with the pixies. It is a measure of how limited your grasp of these issues is, it is an implicit admission of ignorance that you need to have evidence to prove such an elementary error incorrect.

Where do you get that information? Not from the real world.

It would be far more pertinent for you to tell us where you got your quaint ideas from. That is to say, if they're not pure conjecture, which they most likely are.

One place you can find reliable information is: "Myths of Gender" By Anne Fausto-Sterling, Professor of Biology at Brown University. Fausto-Sterling systematically demolishes the myth of biological gender determination, which is the notion that underwrites all the varieties of crude sexual stereotyping such as the one you have advanced.

Omg. You know, you can design and create research, especially in psychology, to 'find' anything you want.

You can choose to believe anything that you wish. You can choose to ignore evidence based conclusions that have been replicated in hundreds if not thousands of studies over the years, tangible physical evidence not observational summations (as in psychology), because that evidence doesn't mesh with your quaint folk homilies or you can be an adult about it. Your choice.

Great. Show me a hundred or so high tech acquisition corporate contracts that were signed by women.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Profile

Post #: 79

RE: There Is No Gender Wage Gap - 3/10/2017 7:28:11 PM

InfoMan

Posts: 471
Joined: 2/20/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome

Thanks for re-expressing my words to create a statement I didn't make.

You are not making a statement - all you're doing is making counter statements.

By simply sitting here and producing counter statements you cannot in any sense be hammered down as being wrong... Which is a crap form of debate because it means that you'll always adopt the high ground when losing denouncing your opposition as over reacting and taking the wrong message, while at the same time allowing yourself to defend the side your on with the same fervor as a 'true believer' of that side.

I actually pointed this out specifically in post 65
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=5008598

you simply ignored that post because it doesn't fit into your argument strategy because it specifically engages you and the method in which you argue.

(in reply to longwayhome)

Profile

Post #: 80