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The truth is depressing - 3/24/2017 8:57:43 AM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
Status: offline 		This speech by Chris Hedges rings really true to me, because he cuts through the partisanship and basically calls the entire political climate what it truly is-- fucked.

I really think the key to bringing people together is to get everyone to recognize that the majority of Trump voters are legitimately disillusioned and vulnerable, and that most left-wingers only support the neoliberalism espoused by the Democrats because in their minds there is no alternative.

The US has finally hit the stage that the USSR did in the late 80s... it has essentially already collapsed, and Trump and his friends intend to raid its dying corpse for personal gain. They are actually in a perfect position to turn the US into a mafia-state similar to Russia or China, where the state essentially serves as not much more than a means of transferring wealth and power away from the people and into the hands of the oligarchs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLaoJrg80JQ

It's all pretty grim, but there is a degree of hope offered at the end, I suppose...
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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/24/2017 10:55:57 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		It's always good to remember that both Republican and Democratic voters are fed a steady stream of propaganda designed to, among other things, ensure that no civil conversation can happen between what passes for the left in the US and the right. That, by far, is the biggest threat to the oligarchy. If we ever start comparing notes, the reign of money comes to an end.

The key to bringing everyone together is patience. In my experience, people "wake up from the matrix" when and if they are able and willing. No amount of factual evidence can change their opinion. My brother is a very analytical sort of guy and when I gave him evidence (strong evidence) that Obama had lied routinely about our wars, his answer was to say, "Obama says he's telling the truth".

He is obviously not ready accept any new information or alternate viewpoints. I think that as the oligarchy screws us more and more, people are going to be under progressively more pressure to wake up and smell the coffee. How long that takes remains to be seen but the crashing numbers for the Democratic party and the already low numbers for the Republican party give me hope. The whole "fake news" thing gives me hope... it's a sign that the establishment is realizing they've lost control of the conversation. I think American voters are slowly dragging themselves out of their stupor but for the most party, there is no safe port in this storm so they don't know what to do even after they've realized how screwed they are.

PS: If you watch Chris Hedges then you are a Russian stooge... courtesy of the Democratic party.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/24/2017 10:59:32 AM   
BoscoX


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Joined: 12/10/2016
Status: offline 		Donald Trump is a wrecking ball to the establishment. Not the perfect wrecking ball, but a wrecking ball all the same, with a message that reverberates for many conservatives and libertarians. Again, no - not perfect. But a start.

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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/24/2017 11:00:53 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Yeah, between his wrecking ball, and the nutsucker ineptitude, the country is certainly getting fucked up.

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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/24/2017 11:05:54 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX
Donald Trump is a wrecking ball to the establishment. Not the perfect wrecking ball, but a wrecking ball all the same, with a message that reverberates for many conservatives and libertarians. Again, no - not perfect. But a start.

Yeah, Obama billed himself in a similar way and he fooled me in '08. I think that if you look at what Trump's actually done then you'll see he's hardly "wrecking the establishment". Just like Obama he's fully surrounded by the standard tools of the establishment. Sure, he's an unpredictable wildcard so they definitely would've preferred Hillary. But he's not on my side anymore than Hillary or Obama were. Sanders was actually interested in "we the people" rather than the plutocrats but he's also pretty left on some stances making him unpalatable to Republicans and, of course, he had to be crushed by the Democratic establishment before he could do any damage.

If I had assessed Trump as actually anti-establishment I'd have voted for him. Instead, my vote went to the only populist candidate available to me.. Jill Stein (yet another Russian stooge LOL).


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/24/2017 11:09:51 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Stein is a stooge, but of German heritage I warrant.

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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/24/2017 11:19:21 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Scrotus and his base want to decimate america, but they have no plan how to stop it going out of control, OR replace it,
This Wrecking ball will decimate, but hasnt got a clue plan to rebuild


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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/24/2017 11:31:02 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Scrotus and his base want to decimate america, but they have no plan how to stop it going out of control, OR replace it,
This Wrecking ball will decimate, but hasnt got a clue plan to rebuild

Heh, if I believed that I'd be in favor of it. Amazingly enough, the alternatives are far worse. I think it may be true of Bannon. Trump himself? Trump's got no real plan beyond his usual efforts at self-aggrandizement and wealth acquisition. Trump's very unpredictablenss makes him an annoyance to the duopoly, but I see him as WAY too weak to actually take it on even if he chose to... not just in his own person but in his base of support.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/24/2017 1:34:20 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		It's no different than the neo-cons. If you wanted something smashed (like Iraq), these were your guys. Building, not so much.

Different day, different clowns, same circus.

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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/24/2017 1:47:29 PM   
WickedsDesire


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Status: offline 		69 minutes hmmmm
You will find Russia enabled this presidency - Christ you are dim

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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/24/2017 4:53:46 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
It's no different than the neo-cons. If you wanted something smashed (like Iraq), these were your guys. Building, not so much.

Different day, different clowns, same circus.

Well, it's somewhat different. In the case of "smashing" the establishment, there's an actual imperative which supports the interest of actual American citizens.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love it if we had a party which wanted to actually govern. But we don't and we are stuck with a two party system so something must be ripped down before anything else can be built.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/24/2017 9:38:07 PM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Sure, he's an unpredictable wildcard so they definitely would've preferred Hillary.


I don't think they would have preferred Hillary, actually... mostly because Hillary wouldn't have been so easy to manipulate and undermine. Oh, and because she isn't a total fucking moron.

The oligarchs have been waiting for someone like Trump for decades. Not only is he hopelessly weak, stupid and incompetent, he is also the perfect distraction. He wasn't saying what he was saying because he believed it or because he knew how to accomplish it, he said it because it got the biggest reaction from the crowds. He is even more easily manipulated than Reagan. He doesn't read books, he can't finish sentences... he doesn't give a shit about anyone except himself.

Trump is not even going to bring down the establishment by accident... he is going to be their bitch, just like he is Putin's bitch, just like he is Bannon's bitch. If he doesn't get impeached over this Russia thing, he will stay in place as an impotent blabbermouth whom nobody ever takes seriously, suffering humiliation after humiliation while endlessly whining to the public and the press about it, giving everyone a laugh and a show... and meanwhile, nobody will actually know who is really running things. I would imagine the power struggle between Bannon and Preibus isn't going to end-- there is no way to reconcile standard establishment GOP politics with conspiracy theories about religious holy wars and white supremacy. I really hope Bannon goes away though... it would make sense for him to lose as he knows nothing about politics, which is good.

But sooner or later there will come a point where the GOP will realize that impeaching Trump is better than letting things go on like this, and then a Christian supremacist with real people skills and self-control will be in charge. That's worse than the establishment-- in fact, this is the worst that the country has gotten in a very long time.

< Message edited by heavyblinker -- 3/24/2017 9:41:13 PM >

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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/24/2017 11:02:18 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker
I don't think they would have preferred Hillary, actually... mostly because Hillary wouldn't have been so easy to manipulate and undermine. Oh, and because she isn't a total fucking moron.

Exactly my point. Hillary is focused, competent, and intelligent. Even better, there's no need to manipulate her since she's already on-team with the plutocrats. Trump, also a plutocrat, is also on-team but a massive wild card because he's fundamentally unstable.

The plutocrats have been waiting for nobody for at least 4 decades. They already completely control our government. Is Trump the worst thing in a long time? I'm still waiting to see if, on the whole, he's better than Obama. I think it's likely that he'll end up worse. But that's just the continuation of a long trend.

Trump is Obama's legacy. Someone even worse will be Trumps. One wonders if the voters will ever care?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to heavyblinker)
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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/25/2017 2:37:45 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Trump is Obama's legacy. Someone even worse will be Trumps. One wonders if the voters will ever care?


I think it was Glenn Beck back in the mid or late 00's that said that our political environment was like a pendulum. The further you pull it in one direction, the further it's going to swing back in the other direction eventually.


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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/25/2017 2:59:52 AM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Exactly my point. Hillary is focused, competent, and intelligent. Even better, there's no need to manipulate her since she's already on-team with the plutocrats. Trump, also a plutocrat, is also on-team but a massive wild card because he's fundamentally unstable.


Yes, but the instability doesn't threaten them, except in its potential to cause a nuclear holocaust or economic meltdown. Hillary was a neoliberal and would have made concessions sure, but she's also strong enough to make sure that the government didn't become a joke and still had some power.

Even if two people have similar interests, there's a difference between a mutually advantageous relationship and master/slave. Hillary would have been the former, while Trump is the latter.

My impression of the mainstream American left is that they have a yearning to push the USA closer to the social democracies of Europe. Keep the corporations strong and the economy stable, but deliver more of the proceeds back to the people, especially the people who need it the most. The mainstream right seems to think that taxes are the enemy and people should keep what they 'earn', and fuck the weak (unless they are well-paid white factory workers who lose their jobs).

I don't think that Hillary would have ignored the Bernie supporters. She wouldn't have become one, but she would have recognized that they were significant in number and made concessions. Trump just wants to push everyone around, which is ridiculous because the only people who actually respect him are... well... you know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
The plutocrats have been waiting for nobody for at least 4 decades. They already completely control our government. Is Trump the worst thing in a long time? I'm still waiting to see if, on the whole, he's better than Obama. I think it's likely that he'll end up worse. But that's just the continuation of a long trend.

Trump is Obama's legacy. Someone even worse will be Trumps. One wonders if the voters will ever care?


I don't think Trump is exclusively Obama's legacy-- more like the legacy of every president since at least Reagan. He is Obama's legacy in the sense that Obama didn't bring the kind of radical changes that everyone was expecting, but my impression of him was that he was at least trying to build something he believed in. The problem is that people were expecting miracles because they don't understand how things work and think the solution is easy... and so when Trump comes along and tells them their hopeless mindless magical thinking is correct, they think 'finally'. They didn't seem to realize that the only reason Trump was telling them this was because he wants to be loved, not because he has any ideas about how to make it happen. Ultimately, he won't even care if he does anything... because we all know that he is incapable of accepting his own failures, and simply flies into a childish rage or just pretends it was actually a success. Except for himself, Trump doesn't believe in anything, including reality.

But I agree-- the worst thing about Trump might not even be Trump himself, but the person who takes what he has legitimized even further. The thing is, it's also quite possible that this whole alt-right neo-/proto-fascist wave will totally implode after 4 years. Trump's biggest selling point in this election was that he was 'something new'... people thought they had nothing to lose. Trump could be the guy who slaps them across the face with his stupidity and reminds them that they do.

The biggest threat now is probably Christian fascism. It's much more refined, much more disciplined... and it even comes complete with its own iconography and a much larger, much more mindlessly devoted fan base.

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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/25/2017 3:03:17 AM   
heavyblinker


Posts: 3623
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I think it was Glenn Beck back in the mid or late 00's that said that our political environment was like a pendulum. The further you pull it in one direction, the further it's going to swing back in the other direction eventually.


Except it was never actually pulled to the left.

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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/25/2017 5:36:38 AM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

It's always good to remember that both Republican and Democratic voters are fed a steady stream of propaganda designed to, among other things, ensure that no civil conversation can happen between what passes for the left in the US and the right. That, by far, is the biggest threat to the oligarchy. If we ever start comparing notes, the reign of money comes to an end.

The key to bringing everyone together is patience. In my experience, people "wake up from the matrix" when and if they are able and willing. No amount of factual evidence can change their opinion. My brother is a very analytical sort of guy and when I gave him evidence (strong evidence) that Obama had lied routinely about our wars, his answer was to say, "Obama says he's telling the truth".

He is obviously not ready accept any new information or alternate viewpoints. I think that as the oligarchy screws us more and more, people are going to be under progressively more pressure to wake up and smell the coffee. How long that takes remains to be seen but the crashing numbers for the Democratic party and the already low numbers for the Republican party give me hope. The whole "fake news" thing gives me hope... it's a sign that the establishment is realizing they've lost control of the conversation. I think American voters are slowly dragging themselves out of their stupor but for the most party, there is no safe port in this storm so they don't know what to do even after they've realized how screwed they are.

PS: If you watch Chris Hedges then you are a Russian stooge... courtesy of the Democratic party.
I found it interesting that Obama was all smiles and full of optimism and then it seemed the very next day after he took office the smile was gone like “someone” sat him down and explained how things really work and that he was just a puppet for the real power brokers or else.

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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/25/2017 5:50:14 AM   
NoirMetal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heavyblinker

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I think it was Glenn Beck back in the mid or late 00's that said that our political environment was like a pendulum. The further you pull it in one direction, the further it's going to swing back in the other direction eventually.


Except it was never actually pulled to the left.

correct. All it did was to benefit new world order bankers and their scheme to take over under the guise of "humanitarian effort"

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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/25/2017 5:51:05 AM   
Milesnmiles


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX
Donald Trump is a wrecking ball to the establishment. Not the perfect wrecking ball, but a wrecking ball all the same, with a message that reverberates for many conservatives and libertarians. Again, no - not perfect. But a start.

This so funny, Donald Trump is the establishment and if not, he is seriously on their side.

The problem is you are not looking behind the curtain.

You still are ranting about the “Alt-Left” but fail to see it’s not about issues, left-right or conservative-liberal, it’s about power and money.

My suggestion to you is, although talking about the “issues” is fun, “follow the money”.
;-)

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RE: The truth is depressing - 3/25/2017 5:56:59 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Trump is Obama's legacy. Someone even worse will be Trumps. One wonders if the voters will ever care?


I think it was Glenn Beck back in the mid or late 00's that said that our political environment was like a pendulum. The further you pull it in one direction, the further it's going to swing back in the other direction eventually.


Now that is funny and a bit true. Although I agree with pundits that say Obama on certain issues...wasn't partisan enough, especially when confronted with the wall the repubs so often put up.

Except that both GWB and Obama did come a bit to the center. The problem is with many, is that they were so far either side of center...they couldn't come far enough to satisfy either opposite side.

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