A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 7:09:24 AM)

There's an interesting piece in today's Atlantic by conservative author David Frum. It's thoughtful. Here's the end -- especially look at the second to last paragraph.

Paul Ryan still upholds the right of Americans to ‘choose’ to go uninsured. His country no longer agrees.

In that third week in March in 2010, America committed itself for the first time to the principle of universal (or near universal) health-care coverage. That principle has had seven years to work its way into American life and into the public sense of right and wrong. It’s not yet unanimously accepted. But it’s accepted by enough voters—and especially by enough Republican voters—to render impossible the seven-year Republican vision of removing that coverage from those who have gained it under the Affordable Care Act. Paul Ryan still upholds the right of Americans to “choose” to go uninsured if they cannot afford to pay the cost of their insurance on their own. His country no longer agrees.

What happens now? What happens now is that—a few bitter-enders aside—Republican politicians, especially in the states, begin the slow and belated process of entering the next era of health-care politics. Contrary to Paul Ryan’s bleak vision of a political “tipping point” after which the nation declines into “dependency and passivity,” Americans will continue to find plenty to argue about—and possibly more than ever.

How generous should health coverage be? What should be done to control costs? Who should pay, and on what terms? To what extent should citizens be free to impose the cost of their unhealthy choices upon others? Conservative-minded people will converge on one set of intuitions; progressives on another. It’s possible to imagine a Republican health-care politics that rejects the ultra-redistributionary approach of the ACA and instead argues that since all benefit from health coverage, all must contribute to its costs via some kind of broad-based tax. It’s possible to imagine a Republican health-care politics that emphasizes cost control over benefit provision. It’s possible to imagine a Republican health-care politics that incentivizes providers and insurers to achieve better outcomes at lower prices. It’s possible to imagine a Republican health-care politics that resists socializing the burden of addiction, obesity, and other unhealthy behaviors. It’s possible to imagine a Republican Party that cares about the details of health policy and is not satisfied with poorly informed hand waves toward outworn party shibboleths. It won’t happen soon, perhaps—but the sooner the better.

Conservatives have a crucial role to play in shaping the future American health-care system to enhance and support enterprise, innovation, individual responsibility—to resist open-ended spending, state planning, and the risk that social insurance will penalize effort and success. It’s past time to accept reality, quit promising the impossible, and do the work that a democracy that seeks both equity and efficiency should expect from its more conservative-minded thinkers and politicians.

Whatever else the 2016 election has done, it has emancipated Republicans from one of their own worst self-inflicted blind spots. Health care may not be a human right, but the lack of universal health coverage in a wealthy democracy is a severe, unjustifiable, and unnecessary human wrong. As Americans lift this worry from their fellow citizens, they’ll discover that they have addressed some other important problems too. They’ll find that they have removed one of the most important barriers to entrepreneurship, because people with bright ideas will fear less to quit the jobs through which they get their health care. They’ll find they have improved the troubled lives of the white working class succumbing at earlier ages from preventable deaths of despair. They’ll find that they have equalized the life chances of Americans of different races. They’ll find that they have discouraged workplace discrimination against women, older Americans, the disabled, and other employees with higher expected health-care costs. They’ll find that their people become less alienated from a country that has overcome at last one of the least attractive manifestations of American exceptionalism—and joined the rest of the civilized world in ameliorating and alleviating our common human vulnerability to illness and pain.

We’ve all been wrong about enough things to teach us humility about our rare bursts of foresight. What I would urge is that those conservatives and Republicans who were wrong about the evolution of this debate please consider why they were wrong: Consider the destructive effect of ideological conformity, of ignorance of the experience of comparable countries, and of a conservative political culture that incentivizes intransigence, radicalism, and anger over prudence, moderation, and compassion.




BoscoX -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 7:19:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

There's an interesting piece in today's Atlantic by conservative author David Frum. It's thoughtful. Here's the end -- especially look at the second to last paragraph.

Paul Ryan still upholds the right of Americans to ‘choose’ to go uninsured. His country no longer agrees.

In that third week in March in 2010, America committed itself for the first time to the principle of universal (or near universal) health-care coverage. .


If they agree with (generic) you, they're "thoughtful" and America is on board as of right now. If they disagree, they're "twats" and "faggots" who hate the poor and are working with Putin... No evidence needed, it's settled politics. Debate neither required nor allowed, pepper spray and beatings to follow







mnottertail -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 7:21:20 AM)

Unless we agree that its ok for nutsuckers to pimp pedophiles, then you are always gay-bashing, sometimes even your commie circlefelch coven.




BoscoX -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 7:36:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Unless we agree that its ok for nutsuckers to pimp pedophiles, then you are always gay-bashing, sometimes even your commie circlefelch coven.


Oh, right - pedophiles, too. Forgot that one. Thanks, Mr "Sharp guy". [:D]

Subhuman or whatever




Musicmystery -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 7:53:14 AM)

Now that you've again made ME the topic, try addressing the ACTUAL topic.




mnottertail -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 8:01:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Unless we agree that its ok for nutsuckers to pimp pedophiles, then you are always gay-bashing, sometimes even your commie circlefelch coven.


Oh, right - pedophiles, too. Forgot that one. Thanks, Mr "Sharp guy". [:D]

Subhuman or whatever

You are the fellow out here pimping Milo the pedophile, are you going to deny it?

http://www.collarchat.com/searchpro.asp?phrase=Milo&author=Boscox&forumid=ALL&topicreply=both&message=body&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&language=single&top=300&criteria=AND&minRank=0&sortMethod=d&submitbutton=+OK+


You are welcome Mr Retard Felchgobbler guy.
Hows it going hanging out in your mothers basement in the compound with your sock and hand lotion, and the Pedophile Pimping Chronicles?

You only have two things to remember, you felchgobble and you pimp pedophiles, and you are so fucking retarded you forgot one of them. Tell us how sharp you are with your felchgobbling PutinJizz again, we forgot.




BoscoX -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 8:07:43 AM)

Thanks for the backup mnottertroll, but I got this




mnottertail -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 8:10:08 AM)

not as sharp as is you would have used a question mark, what better way in the English language to indicate a question? (even rhetorically, in fact, its the only way).

But you are still at a felchgobbling retarded pedophile pimping level, retard guy, and have absolutely no idea on how to fix the ills of our healthcare system, just like your felchgobbling nutsucker compatriots in the congress. You offer up dogshit, same as they. Anything except reasoned, researched prescriptive solutions.





BoscoX -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 8:11:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

not as sharp as is you would have used a question mark, what better way in the English language to indicate a question? (even rhetorically, in fact, its the only way).

But you are still at a felchgobbling retarded pedophile pimping level, retard guy, and have absolutely no idea on how to fix the ills of our healthcare system, just like your felchgobbling nutsucker compatriots in the congress. You offer up dogshit, same as they. Anything except reasoned, researched prescriptive solutions.




Okay, alright - f you insist, I guess you can help. I appreciate it. [:)]




mnottertail -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 8:26:42 AM)

Great. How about you research single payer and tell me how that does not work, and wont work for Americans? And how nothing can be done to repair Obamacare and why, and what would make a workable system from anything 'the right' has got, and why?

Theres your help, go to it.




WickedsDesire -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 8:30:01 AM)

Frum that's a cargo cult right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum

Free universal health care for all - ends argument.




dcnovice -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 8:44:34 AM)

FR

Great read, thanks!




BoscoX -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 9:02:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Great. How about you research single payer and tell me how that does not work, and wont work for Americans? And how nothing can be done to repair Obamacare and why, and what would make a workable system from anything 'the right' has got, and why?

Theres your help, go to it.


How about you research how the Democrats could have done anything they wanted, and they chose to work in secret to give the insurance lobby the biggest and best gift at the people's expense ever, then did nothing but bitch and troll when the Republicans started working on a fix to their nightmare right out in the open




BoscoX -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 9:04:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Frum that's a cargo cult right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum

Free universal health care for all - ends argument.


"Free!!! Everything will be free!!"

Jos. Stalin, Chairman Mao, et al.




Lucylastic -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 9:09:46 AM)

I wasnt a big fan of frum for a long time, but Ive seen him a lot lately and some of this thoughts are promising:)
This is definitely interesting.

Another sentence I liked is
quote:

Paul Ryan still upholds the right of Americans to “choose” to go uninsured if they cannot afford to pay the cost of their insurance on their own. His country no longer agrees.

Of course there are people that voted for a repub/Scrotus because they believed they had something that would save them money on their healthcare costs( and insurance) but wasnt a major priority for their vote.
NOW The protests at town halls have been effective, and its not just "paid protestors" snerk, its THEIR own people that are angry and needing their healthcare.
its become vital to them as Frum says.


Obama SHOULD have gone with single payer/medicaid for all, or use bits from various systems that work elsewhere.
But thats been my opinion since before I left england.
Being a recipient of single payer(NHS OHIP whatever) my whole life and been involved in it, professionally it seems the only logical way.
The more I understand about the US system, the more troubled I am for those on the lower to middle rungs of america









WickedsDesire -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 9:12:49 AM)

"Free!!! Everything will be free!!" like your cranial cavity? guffaws walked right into that one dumbfukboscox

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_universal_health_care




mnottertail -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 9:13:49 AM)

They didnt work in secret, it was soaked throughout the media. Breitbart slobberblog didnt cover it so you were unaware.


http://affordablehealthca.com/timeline-obamacare/
https://resources.ehealthinsurance.com/affordable-care-act/history-timeline-affordable-care-act-aca

The thing was online for at least six months before passage for all to read, with all you nutsuckers bitching, its on here somewhere.




WickedsDesire -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 9:26:02 AM)

Breitbart and townhall guffaws not been on there all week i forgot about them Now I think about it is it better, as opposed to fibre optics and a huge cock (what!), if I have a pipe directly to their lair so they can pump raw effluent directly into my failing minds




tj444 -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 9:42:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

There's an interesting piece in today's Atlantic by conservative author David Frum. It's thoughtful. Here's the end -- especially look at the second to last paragraph.


He's Canadian, of course.. hey, just sayin'.. [:D]

You may call him a conservative but apparently he voted for Hillary in the last election.. [:-] What is he, really?




Musicmystery -> RE: A Thoughtful Conservative Take On Health-Care Moving Forward (3/25/2017 9:46:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I wasnt a big fan of frum for a long time, but Ive seen him a lot lately and some of this thoughts are promising:)
This is definitely interesting.

Another sentence I liked is
quote:

Paul Ryan still upholds the right of Americans to “choose” to go uninsured if they cannot afford to pay the cost of their insurance on their own. His country no longer agrees.

Of course there are people that voted for a repub/Scrotus because they believed they had something that would save them money on their healthcare costs( and insurance) but wasnt a major priority for their vote.
NOW The protests at town halls have been effective, and its not just "paid protestors" snerk, its THEIR own people that are angry and needing their healthcare.
its become vital to them as Frum says.


Obama SHOULD have gone with single payer/medicaid for all, or use bits from various systems that work elsewhere.
But thats been my opinion since before I left england.
Being a recipient of single payer(NHS OHIP whatever) my whole life and been involved in it, professionally it seems the only logical way.
The more I understand about the US system, the more troubled I am for those on the lower to middle rungs of america







For me, it's not a matter of being a fan or not. I like to read a variety of well-considered perspectives, and if they disagree with mine, all the better...I like to take a look, see what they have, perhaps adjust my own thinking accordingly, perhaps sharpen it instead.




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