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RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 4:13:51 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

How well did the restrictive gun laws work in Paris, or Germany or Austria, or Naples, or Marseille, last year, or how about in 2015?

To use this yardstick in a slightly different way, Oklahoma appears to be a fairly gun-friendly state. How well did that protect them from Timothy McVeigh?

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RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 4:56:18 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

How well did the restrictive gun laws work in Paris, or Germany or Austria, or Naples, or Marseille, last year, or how about in 2015?

To use this yardstick in a slightly different way, Oklahoma appears to be a fairly gun-friendly state. How well did that protect them from Timothy McVeigh?

I may be mistaken, but I don't think he blew up that building with a gun.

K.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 5:07:26 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I may be mistaken, but I don't think he blew up that building with a gun.

I don't think so either. But he also doesn't seem to have been deterred by an armed citizenry.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 3/28/2017 5:08:56 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 5:17:29 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I may be mistaken, but I don't think he blew up that building with a gun.

I don't think so either. But he also doesn't seem to have been deterred by an armed citizenry.


I will give you that one.

Of course no one figured some guy would blow up a federal building with a truck bomb in the US.

On a side note, I just got the letter from ATF....


I have been granted approval to finish putting a WW2 Browning Automatic Rifle back to firing capability and my 1919 30 cal stinger (belt fed 30 cal machine gun with BAR stock.)

Long story short, I can legally order the new receivers and bolts.

Too bad I cant legally hunt hogs with them.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 5:19:01 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I may be mistaken, but I don't think he blew up that building with a gun.

I don't think so either. But he also doesn't seem to have been deterred by an armed citizenry.

How would that work? Ya figure we should shoot folks who park a truck in front of a government building?

K.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 5:21:54 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I may be mistaken, but I don't think he blew up that building with a gun.

I don't think so either. But he also doesn't seem to have been deterred by an armed citizenry.

His main weapon was stealth. You can't shoot an invisible enemy.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 5:25:30 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Well you can . . . you just have to aim via something other than sight (infrared?) or shoot randomly and get lucky.

Or unlucky, depending what you shot.

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RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 5:37:25 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well you can . . . you just have to aim via something other than sight (infrared?) or shoot randomly and get lucky.

Or unlucky, depending what you shot.

Maybe I chose the wrong word, you can't accurately shoot an enemy when you don't know they exist.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 5:37:27 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

How would that work? Ya figure we should shoot folks who park a truck in front of a government building?

Only in season.

More seriously, I think invoking individual terror attacks--"What about Paris? What about Marseilles?"--in a general discussion of gun policy is pointless.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 5:41:37 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well you can . . . you just have to aim via something other than sight (infrared?) or shoot randomly and get lucky.

Or unlucky, depending what you shot.

Maybe I chose the wrong word, you can't accurately shoot an enemy when you don't know they exist.

Not intentionally anyway.


(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 5:43:33 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well you can . . . you just have to aim via something other than sight (infrared?) or shoot randomly and get lucky.

Or unlucky, depending what you shot.



As I said, no one thought a Ryder rental truck was a bomb.

But, in truth, he could have done far worse than most people realize, and it is a scenario that has been thought of by the ATF a few times.

Imagine if you will, if McVeigh had purchased 2 thousand gallon propane tanks and rigged the valves with instant purge units? with a small detonator?

That is a FAE in a nutshell.

And two thousand gallons of propane detonated in front of that court house would have taken that building down and a few others.

There is a big fear among harbor security is a LPG tanker being used as a bomb.

It would make the Hiroshima bomb look like a fire cracker.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 5:50:12 PM   
MasterBrentC


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Status: offline 		Strange how we don't have a thread about Islamic terrorist attack in Londonistan.

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 5:51:42 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well you can . . . you just have to aim via something other than sight (infrared?) or shoot randomly and get lucky.

Or unlucky, depending what you shot.

Maybe I chose the wrong word, you can't accurately shoot an enemy when you don't know they exist.

Not intentionally anyway.



Exactly, you can't take out the true threat with any accuracy if you don't know who they are. Ok city is totally irrelevant.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 5:52:44 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well you can . . . you just have to aim via something other than sight (infrared?) or shoot randomly and get lucky.

Or unlucky, depending what you shot.

Maybe I chose the wrong word, you can't accurately shoot an enemy when you don't know they exist.

Not intentionally anyway.





_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 6:18:02 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterBrentC

Strange how we don't have a thread about Islamic terrorist attack in Londonistan.

We do.
However the UK says he has no ties to isis or any other "islamic" group
And he had a violent history before he converted to islam.
Looking for a route for his violence...
Adrian is a lot less terrifying than the fact hes a abusive violent fuck head or any "muslim name.

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RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 7:29:03 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

How would that work? Ya figure we should shoot folks who park a truck in front of a government building?

Only in season.

More seriously, I think invoking individual terror attacks--"What about Paris? What about Marseilles?"--in a general discussion of gun policy is pointless.

Thank you, at last someone on the left agrees with the point I have been making for a couple of years that terrorism is largely unaffected by gun control

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 7:52:10 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: jlf1961


As I said, no one thought a Ryder rental truck was a bomb.

But, in truth, he could have done far worse than most people realize, and it is a scenario that has been thought of by the ATF a few times.

Imagine if you will, if McVeigh had purchased 2 thousand gallon propane tanks and rigged the valves with instant purge units? with a small detonator?

What is an instant purge valve and how does it work?


(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 8:21:20 PM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: jlf1961


That is a FAE in a nutshell.

Fae is a fuel air explosion so the big question is how to get the fuel and air to mix and explode in a timely manner. You cannot do it inside the tank so the tank has to be quickly emptied so that the fuel and air can mix but propane is a liquid under pressure and when exposed to atmospheric prssure it will vaporise in a few seconds depending on the temprature...(hot summer day about thirty seconds to a couple of minutes for a thousand gallons. On a cold winter day around freezing maybe twenty minutes or a bit more. while this is happening the fuel and air keep expanding over a greater area thus reducing the compression needed to effect a rapid flame front.

There is a big fear among harbor security is a LPG tanker being used as a bomb.

It would make the Hiroshima bomb look like a fire cracker.


You are ignoring some basic physics jeff. while it is true in rough terms
methane and propane mixed with oxygen or air release in
rough order 10 times as much energy as tnt. But in a very
diffuse reaction even if it efficiently detonates in the air;
the density of air, or an air-propane mixture, is about 1.25
kilograms per cubic meter, and the detonation pressure of
that air-propane mix will be a couple of hundred psi or so
compared to millions of psi for tnt
Lpg tankers run from about 700,000 gal to about 4,000,000 gal So even with the largest lpg tanker vs the 15 kiloton hiroshima bomb the firecracker would be the tanker.

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 8:52:10 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

How would that work? Ya figure we should shoot folks who park a truck in front of a government building?

Only in season.

More seriously, I think invoking individual terror attacks--"What about Paris? What about Marseilles?"--in a general discussion of gun policy is pointless.

Thank you, at last someone on the left agrees with the point I have been making for a couple of years that terrorism is largely unaffected by gun control



My point exactly.

Or to be specific, gun control will not end gun violence.

There are many countries that have gun laws that make possession of a firearm a capital offense, and they have higher murder rates than the US.

Of all the people killed by guns in the US, less than a third is attributable to a criminal act.

A point that Wicked refuses to acknowledge, accept or even consider.

For example, in 2015 there were 35092 deaths involving cars, over 9000 of those due to driving under the influence.

So, do we ban alcohol or cars?

Gun related crime is a major problem, the bigger problem is stupid gun owners, the fatal gun accident with the famous words "I didnt know it was loaded."

Of course, you cannot set laws to prevent stupid.

There are some things that can be done, yet people call it 'invasion of privacy" or use other reasons.

The funny thing is that states require a test to get a license to drive a car, so why not a when buying a gun?

Would a mandatory gun safety course really be that bad of an idea?

But the real point in all of this is that 32% of Americans own guns. That is over 100 million people who own one or more guns in the US.

And the last year that there is reliable statistics is 2015 with 32000 gun related deaths. That involves less than 3% of gun owners. Of those, 12000 were crime related.

And the basic truth is that someone who used a gun during a crime probably did not buy the damn thing legally.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Yet another Gun nut runs amok in Americashire - 3/28/2017 9:13:06 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

How would that work? Ya figure we should shoot folks who park a truck in front of a government building?

Only in season.

More seriously, I think invoking individual terror attacks--"What about Paris? What about Marseilles?"--in a general discussion of gun policy is pointless.

Thank you, at last someone on the left agrees with the point I have been making for a couple of years that terrorism is largely unaffected by gun control



My point exactly.

Or to be specific, gun control will not end gun violence.

There are many countries that have gun laws that make possession of a firearm a capital offense, and they have higher murder rates than the US.

Of all the people killed by guns in the US, less than a third is attributable to a criminal act.

A point that Wicked refuses to acknowledge, accept or even consider.

For example, in 2015 there were 35092 deaths involving cars, over 9000 of those due to driving under the influence.

So, do we ban alcohol or cars?

Gun related crime is a major problem, the bigger problem is stupid gun owners, the fatal gun accident with the famous words "I didnt know it was loaded."

Of course, you cannot set laws to prevent stupid.

There are some things that can be done, yet people call it 'invasion of privacy" or use other reasons.

The funny thing is that states require a test to get a license to drive a car, so why not a when buying a gun?

Would a mandatory gun safety course really be that bad of an idea?

But the real point in all of this is that 32% of Americans own guns. That is over 100 million people who own one or more guns in the US.

And the last year that there is reliable statistics is 2015 with 32000 gun related deaths. That involves less than 3% of gun owners. Of those, 12000 were crime related.

And the basic truth is that someone who used a gun during a crime probably did not buy the damn thing legally.

On one hand gun control is not even relevant to terrorism, (something the left won't dispute if the terror happens overseas, {although until today I haven't seen one actually agree with it } ) and all you have to do to see it doesn't work against crime is look at the DC/Chicago experiments.

As for the safety course, I have been shooting for 58 years, I don't think I really need a safety course.
2nd problem is that it can be made to keep people from even getting a gun. Like the literacy tests to vote in the 60's. That or extreme costs

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 80
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