Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 10:36:17 AM)

Sen. Chris Murphy, Contributor (for the Huffington Post)
United States Senator for Connecticut
Trump Is Dragging Us Into Another War... And No One Is Talking About It
While Americans have been focused on the ACA and Trump’s ties to Russia, Trump has been busy expanding the American troop presence inside Syria.
03/25/2017 11:47 am ET | Updated 1 day ago

Quietly, while Americans have been focused on the ongoing drama over repealing the Affordable Care Act and the new revelations about the Trump campaign’s ties to Russia, President Trump has been busy dramatically expanding the American troop presence inside Syria. And virtually no one in Washington has noticed. Americans have a right to know what Trump is planning and whether this will lead to an Iraq-style occupation of Syria for years to come.

Without any official notification, Trump sent 500 new American troops into Syria, ostensibly to take part in the upcoming assault on the ISIS stronghold of Raqqa. News reports suggest this deployment may just be the tip of the iceberg, with some saying that the plan is for hundreds more American troops to be added to the fight in the coming weeks. No one actually knows how many troops are inside Syria now, because the administration has largely tried to keep the build-up a secret.

This deployment poses a significant, potentially catastrophic risk for the United States and the future of Syria and the Middle East. Congress cannot be silent on this matter. I have long been against putting U.S. troops on the ground in Syria—I opposed the idea during the Obama administration and I oppose it now, because I believe we are destined to repeat the mistakes of the Iraq War if we try to force political stability simply through the barrel of a gun. I would urge my colleagues who have not focused on the question of U.S. troop presence in Syria to, at the very least, demand the administration answer two basic questions before signing off on the money to fund this dangerous escalation.

First, what is our mission and what is our exit strategy?

The public explanation of the military escalation has been to prepare for the assault on Raqqa. Taking Raqqa is a necessary and long-desired objective. The problem lies in making U.S. troops an indispensible part of the invasion force, which likely will require us to stay and become an indispensible part of the occupation force as well. This is what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I see no reason why we wouldn’t face the same trap in Syria. But if this is not the administration’s plan, they should be explicit about this. They should assure Congress and the American public that we are in Syria simply until Raqqa falls, and no longer.

There are other important questions to ask. Recently, Trump sent a small group of Special Forces operators to Manbij to keep the peace between Kurdish and Turkish-backed forces fighting for control of this remote section of northern Syria. This suggests our military mission is much broader—and more complicated—than simply helping to retake Raqqa.

Many Syria experts agree that once Raqqa is taken from ISIS, the fighting is just beginning. The contest then begins between the various proxy forces (Saudi, Iranian, Russian, Turkish, Kurdish) over who ultimately controls the city. Will U.S. forces leave at that point, or does Trump’s plan envision that we will stay to mediate future control of large portions of the battlespace? This would be a mirror of Iraq, in which thousands of Americans died trying to figure out the post-Saddam settlement of accounts between the Sunnis, Shia, and Kurds. And it could result in just as much American bloodshed.

Second, do we have a political strategy or just a military strategy?

This past Thursday, I joined other members of the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee for lunch with Secretary of State Rex Tillerson. I was glad that Tillerson was willing to open the doors of the State Department to a bipartisan group of Senators, and our discussion was honest and frank. In the meeting, Tillerson showed admirable candor in admitting that the military strategy was far ahead of the diplomatic strategy in Syria.

But this was actually a dramatic understatement. Unless a secret plan exists that Trump is keeping from U.S. Senators and his own Secretary of State, there is absolutely no plan for who controls post-ISIS Raqqa, or post-Assad Syria.

The obstacles to a political plan for the future of Raqqa increase by the week. U.S. military leaders want to rely on Kurdish and Arab fighters to retake Raqqa, but hope that the Kurds will then abandon the city after they lose hundreds or thousands of their soldiers in the assault. Even if this fantasy were to become reality, it would come at a price – the Kurds would expect something in return for their effort. And today, we have no idea how to execute this two-step without having peace undermined by the Turks, who remain violently opposed to giving territory the Kurds. To add complications, the Russian and Iranian-backed forces, sitting just outside Raqqa today, are not going to allow for a U.S.-backed Arab or Arab/Kurdish government to be peacefully installed inside the city. They will want a piece of the action, and we have no credible plan to accommodate them today.

Without a political plan for the future of Raqqa, a military plan is practically useless. Yes, getting ISIS out of Raqqa is a victory in and of itself, but if we set into motion a series of events that simply prolongs the broader conflict, ISIS will easily pick up the pieces and use the ongoing turmoil to regroup and reemerge. We should have learned in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya that a military victory without a plan for what comes next is really not a victory at all. But unbelievably, we seem on the verge of making this mistake again, because of (understandable) enthusiasm for taking the fight to a vicious enemy.

I want ISIS gone. I want them destroyed. But I want it done the right way. I do not want to Americans to die and billions of dollars to be wasted in a war that makes the same mistakes as the disastrous American invasion of Iraq. And I certainly don’t want the war to start in secret, without Congress even noticing that it’s starting. Congress needs to get in the game and start asking questions - before it’s too late.

[Before the usual suspects rant up about Hilary and Libtards, her hawkishness on Syria was a key reason I didn't vote for Clinton either.]




WyrdRich -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 10:52:21 AM)

We'll be lucky if it's only millions that die after O'fuckups failures in the Middle East. And with Hillary being directly responsible for the election of President Trump, it ain't like we have steady and sensible hand on the wheel now.





Musicmystery -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 10:59:02 AM)

Arab Spring not spreading the joy and democracy across the region like the "war on the cheap" administration predicted?

[8|]





WyrdRich -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 11:10:01 AM)

We're fucked, plain and simple.

I may have missed it. Got a link to Huffnpoo calling out Obama when he started the Third Iraq War?




Musicmystery -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 11:27:52 AM)

I'm not the partisan hack some of you delight in being. I simply oppose expand wars that were stupid from the get-go.




vincentML -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 11:42:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

We're fucked, plain and simple.

I may have missed it. Got a link to Huffnpoo calling out Obama when he started the Third Iraq War?

Better than that . . . got a link calling out Obama for not sending the war machine after ISIS.

“I get the sense that [Defense] Secretary [Chuck] Hagel and [Joint Chiefs] General [Martin] Dempsey understand the gravity of the situation. Candidly ... I don't want to hear from the president how he's reacting to events like the Mosul Dam,” House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) said Sunday on CBS’s “Face the Nation.”

“What I want to hear from our commander in chief is that he has a strategy to finish ISIS off. To defeat ISIS,” Ryan said. “If we don't deal with this threat now thoroughly and convincingly, it's going to come home to roost.”

The former Republican vice presidential nominee was hardly the only GOP member to take to the airwaves to criticize Obama’s handling of ISIS on Sunday.

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) on Sunday called on Obama to expand U.S. airstrikes to Syria so the militant group does not have a base of operation.

"There is no boundary between Syria and Iraq," McCain said on "Fox News Sunday." "One of the key decisions the president is going to have to make is airpower in Syria. We cannot give them a base of operations. And we have got to help the Free Syrian Army."

McCain said the recent beheading of U.S. journalist James Foley by ISIS will hopefully work as a catalyst for the administration to define a comprehensive strategy in Iraq and other parts of the world. The United States has launched more than 90 airstrikes in Iraq against ISIS.

"This is an administration, which the kindest word I can use is 'feckless,' where they have not outlined a roles that the United States has to play. And that is a leadership role," he said.


DAMNED IF HE DOES AND DAMNED IF HE DON'T!

Where was WyrdRich in August, 2014 with his bitching and moaning? Where were you in 2003 when GW Bush stuck his dick into the ME Hornets Nest? Great Monday morning quarterbacking, wr.




jlf1961 -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 11:45:23 AM)

Only thing is that Obama sent in troops as well, and more than 500.




WyrdRich -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 11:59:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm not the partisan hack some of you delight in being. I simply oppose expand wars that were stupid from the get-go.


And that's fine, Muse. Funny how your self reasoned positions tend to place you right there with not only the partisan hacks, but right n with the dumbass idealist types who get fucked over by the Dmocrats time after time after time. We're talking definition of insanity time after time.

Personally, I'd be happy with Gary Johnson saying "what is Aleppo" right now, but my candidate seriously got his ass kicked in the last election.




mnottertail -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 12:09:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm not the partisan hack some of you delight in being. I simply oppose expand wars that were stupid from the get-go.

Rich used to be against war, but he is far more for partisan hackery, putting the destruction of stability in the middle east by W the nutsucker onto Obama.

Yeah, Obama hasnt handled that bad situation well, and Il Douchovitch is going to quadruple down on the stupid.





WyrdRich -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 12:14:11 PM)

I'm still against it, Ron. I'm also against rivers flooding people out of their homes. Works out about the same mostly.




WickedsDesire -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 12:58:38 PM)

I thought all the mad fuks missions are concentrated wiping out civilians. I like when it’s a 50 caliber straight to a kiddies head bloootering the mad 2 year olde swarthy looking terrorist fuks brains clean out its skull - fair fills me with the chortles...only two hundred jackals killed on his last successful mission, and awesome intelligence was totally gathered – the man a fuking handsome marvel of a complete wreck – whens hes not raping the kiddies




Musicmystery -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 2:08:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Only thing is that Obama sent in troops as well, and more than 500.

Among the reasons I called him bush lite for eight years




mnottertail -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 2:09:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

I'm still against it, Ron. I'm also against rivers flooding people out of their homes. Works out about the same mostly.


Me too, except you can move to where the rivers aint, and you can stop the election of nutsuckers.




vincentML -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 3:08:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Only thing is that Obama sent in troops as well, and more than 500.

Yes, he did, and damn him for it. But let's not forget the war criminals of 2003.




WyrdRich -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 4:12:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Me too, except you can move to where the rivers aint, and you can stop the election of nutsuckers.


Not when the unelectable crook rigs the game to put the almost unelectable kook on the ticket against her, Ron. Blame Hillary for the next 4(8) years. And all the dumbasses willing to vote for either of them.





thompsonx -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 4:37:24 PM)


ORIGINAL: WyrdRich


Not when the unelectable crook rigs the game to put the almost unelectable kook on the ticket against her, Ron. Blame Hillary for the next 4(8) years. And all the dumbasses willing to vote for either of them.


Is it all women you hate or just women with juice?
Last time I checked it was the electoral college who put dumb don into the oval oriface....not bill's wife.





Termyn8or -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/26/2017 5:52:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Me too, except you can move to where the rivers aint, and you can stop the election of nutsuckers.


Not when the unelectable crook rigs the game to put the almost unelectable kook on the ticket against her, Ron. Blame Hillary for the next 4(8) years. And all the dumbasses willing to vote for either of them.




Pretty much.

T^T




Musicmystery -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/27/2017 8:54:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm not the partisan hack some of you delight in being. I simply oppose expand wars that were stupid from the get-go.


And that's fine, Muse. Funny how your self reasoned positions tend to place you right there with not only the partisan hacks, but right n with the dumbass idealist types who get fucked over by the Dmocrats time after time after time. We're talking definition of insanity time after time.

Personally, I'd be happy with Gary Johnson saying "what is Aleppo" right now, but my candidate seriously got his ass kicked in the last election.

It's only "funny" if you're so married to seeing everything through partisan glasses that you've lost sight of the reality that people who aren't partisan hacks can still have views. And by the way, all personal thinking is "self-reasoned." Further, "dumbass" ideology all the way around has been "[fucking us over]" by both major parties time after time after time . . . Unless you're a partisan hack, then it's the fault of the Democrats, and anyone who doesn't blindly support Republicans is a Democrat. Interesting "self-reasoning" there.

Wanna talk about insanity? How about clinging to this two-party circus that has created the current mess continually since the 80s?

Sure, I hold a lot of progressive views. If you think Democrats are progressive, you haven't paid attention for decades. As such, I supported Sanders, and I'm pissed off about the antics of Clinton and the DNC in the primary--would he have won in a fair shot? And/or beaten Trump? Who knows, but it would have been nice--and more effective for whomever won--to have a legitimate fair primary. I also don't agree with Sanders on everything -- he's wrong on trade, for example. [My position there is what USED to be the conservative position until the distortion that today calls itself conservative.]. And I think the policies of both major parties ignore reality.

Nor was I a Stein fan, though I voted Green to help sustain their place on the ballot, and Working Families in other races, same reason. You somehow seem to feel this is "idealistic," while apparently you voting for Johnson (my second choice) is more realistic somehow. Or that continuing to support Republicans or Democrats is going to realistically bring change. Insanity indeed.

Between Hilary and Trump, my view was different clown, different set of problems.

Now, the election is over, and has been over for months. So we deal with the White House and Congress we have -- which clearly has no clue what it's doing or even what it wants to do or how to do it. FFS. If I'm contemplating a job change, or even taking on a new client, I'm brainstorming and researching all kinds of approaches before that first day. It's basic professionalism. Who are these morons?

That seem partisan to you? Fine. But the circus is simply oligarchy vs. oligarchy, and since only one of them holds any power right now, they're the ones getting the criticism and the phone calls and the protests. Welcome to reality.




Termyn8or -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/27/2017 10:19:54 AM)

It is coming obvious that we need another party in the game. The people in both parties now seem to think they are entitled to the power, just because of the party.

The problem is the voting rules in many states really do not support any competition, even if the People want it. And the federal government cannot change it because as the unites states, we are a conglomeration of fifty countries. Though the Constitution must be obeyed (yeah right) states cannot be compelled to do certain things.

I think for a Presidential election the federal government shouild have the right to require a paper trail. Voter ID, maybe. For their internal elections, state legislators, Mayors and Governors and such, not so much. But in a federal election I think they have the right to demand accountability. And that should include the primaries as well. Something like this might have put Bernie Sanders in the big chair instead of Donald Trump.

The political parties have way too much control over the process. A third party that can gain some foothold here would cut them off at the knees. It is the only way that I can see to solve this problem. For example, Alan Grayson is a democrat but is a firm believer in fiscal responsibility. He could have run. Give him some airtime on TV and he could have beat Trump. Sanders could have beat Trump.

But Trump might not be the worst thing ever like some liberals like to scream. He will tell other countries to fuck off, he seems like he will act in our best interest even though he is not that smart. Is that really worse than someone who is smart acting against our best interest ? Time will tell.

Even if the US defaults on its debts, and whatever, your life is not likely to change all that much. Your next TV set might cost more. Your food might cost more. But it is not like the Chinese are going to walk in here and confiscate your stuff. It is only a matter of commerce.

It is much to my dismay that Trump has escalated the Syria situation. It also goes against logic, if he is a buddy of Putin and Russia he is going against them because they are on the other side of this thing. Russia likes Assad and is working to keep him in power. For Trump to go against them indicates that he is not a stooge for them or anything the liberal crybabies say.

However, remember this, Russia's actions in Syria are to maintain the lawfully elected government against foreign invaders. Antagonists from Saudi Arabia, the US, Israel. They have no business there. We have no business there. If Trump and Putin are buddies, how are they going to reconcile this ? Or do they both think of it like a game of chess or something ? Maybe they do. Assad is like a rook or a knight, and they want the power to move him.

Rich people think differently. Really, it is hard for us under folk to understand but I have studied it. We are a tool for them. To build weapons and armies. To serve their needs. And they have the force of law to get it. And they will use it to get what they want.

Trump does not understand that it is best to GTFO. He does not know enough about foreign affairs. If I had time with him I would tell him to get the fuck out of this shit. We do not belong there. Ever read the Constitution ? Washington's farewell address ? Any of that ? Leave them people alone, all you do is make enemies. How would you like it if they came here and do what we did there ?

But no, we got another one. Like "I am going to solve the problem in the middle east". Bullshit. That is a pipe dream. Those people got their own ideas and their own ways and the best thing to do is to leave them alone. Quit bombing their Grampas, Uncles, children.

Enough.

T^T




Musicmystery -> RE: Trump has been escalating US military in Syria (3/27/2017 10:24:10 AM)

The problem with the rules is that a candidate must top 50% of the vote, not just a majority, or it goes to the House.

We need either (1) leveraged voting (where you rank the candidates and those choices are weighted accordingly) or (2) run-off elections.




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