RE: Rachel Dolezal

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Rachel Dolezal

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Rachel Dolezal

Page: << < prev 1 [2]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Rachel Dolezal - 4/4/2017 6:55:56 PM

Greta75

Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The rates of suicide among transgendered teens is ten times the rate of cisgendered teens. Are you really saying, Greta, that you would prefer to see the name you gave that child on a tombstone before you would call them by the name and sex they identify with?

If so, then you would be as abusive a parent as your mother was.

They are commiting suicide BECAUSE of people telling them that it's unacceptable for a male to be into female things.

The solution is to make it societally acceptable for males to enjoy female things. Even dressing up and make up.

This plastic surgery solution is very drastic. The whole point is because the poor kid is male and likes female things. So to save the poor kid from bullying, you surgically transform him into a female, so people won't bully him for being into female things anymore.

I think allowing the plastic surgery is the REAL ABUSE. That's body modification of a child to solve his bullying problem. It's not the right solution.

Just like circumcision of male babies. Those are the real barbaric solutions.

If things stop being only female things and male things and all male can safely enjoy female things without being told there is something wrong, for it.

Trust me, none of them would want to get surgically changed. Why should they when there is acceptance for males to like female things?

They would start feeling it's normal and not abnormal.

The Root of that suicide is the bullying and the judgement and the unacceptance, they may get from their peers and society.

This is no difference if a teenage girl gets bullied for having small boobs, so her mom pays for her breast enlargement to solve her bullying problem. Is that the right thing to teach your child?

Not teaching them to accept and embrace themselves as they are? But telling them, they need to change their physical appearances to be happy? That their current physical appearance is not good enough?

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 4/4/2017 7:03:10 PM >

(in reply to DesFIP)

Profile

Post #: 21

RE: Rachel Dolezal - 4/4/2017 7:48:35 PM

tamaka

Posts: 5079
Status: offline

They are actually doing that Greta. In fact, Maybelline recently hired their first male model.

(in reply to Greta75)

Profile

Post #: 22

RE: Rachel Dolezal - 4/4/2017 8:07:29 PM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

But during his 7 to 12 yrs old period, you would think he might be turning gay or wanting to be a trans. As he was also crushing on boys.

Nicole was three years old when she insisted on playing with dolls. Same environment as her brother. How do we account for that?

Then there was David Reimer who lost his penis in a botched circumcision. Doctors guided the parents in a bizarre attempt to raise him as a girl. He let go of his fake girl gender when he was fifteen years old. Committed suicide in his thirties.

What can we make of that. Nicole was borne with a penis and wanted to be a girl by age three. David Reimer whose birth was followed with a botch penis and never wanted to be a girl. Who should we trust more? Nicole or David?

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Greta75)

Profile

Post #: 23

RE: Rachel Dolezal - 4/5/2017 2:04:14 AM

Greta75

Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Nicole was three years old when she insisted on playing with dolls. Same environment as her brother. How do we account for that?

To be honest, because my brother is only 2 years younger than me. I only have memories of him from his 7th year onwards, as we lived in two different homes in the beginning parts of my lives. I lived with my maternal Grandpa, and he was with my paternal Grandma, in two different homes. We never lived with our parents or each other until much later.

I think it's also interesting, because I grew up with my grandfather, so this means, I am not expose to dolls or any feminine stuffs. I was brought up like a boy and only did boys things.

My brother was brought up by my dad's mother who is super duper girly girly. Maybe he got his influence from her.

But if I see a 3 yr old boy into dolls or barbie dolls. I would be like, "AWWW, so sweet! He is gonna be great daddy in the future!" Gosh it's like, I can't even imagine any of my chinese girlfriends, freaking out at their sons loving dolls. They would be like, "Oh he is such a sensitive sweet boy!" Or "So young into girls already!" You know, we wouldn't even detect "gay" or potential "transgender" in it.

I wouldn't assume he is meant to be female!!!

Because it's a very maternal feeling that girls have towards dolls. So if a boy is into dolls, maybe he is just also the nurturing kind.

I mean, I was never into dolls, and I am female! Does that mean I meant to be male? I always hated dolls. I threw away all my barbies and dolls and soft toys that I got for my birthday by relatives by 8 yr old. People kept gifting me Barbies throughout my childhood because I'm a girl and I have no use for them.

The cartoons that I loved was He-man, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Transformers. Not very female cartoons.

And I used to be crazy about Hot Wheels for toys!

And I know soccer is a girlie sport specifically in the US. But for the rest of the world, it's a male dominated sport, and especially in my country, it's extremely rare to see women playing it. And that's what I played. Most female play net ball or volleyball or some crap like that.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 4/5/2017 2:18:32 AM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Profile

Post #: 24

RE: Rachel Dolezal - 4/5/2017 4:22:12 PM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

But if I see a 3 yr old boy into dolls or barbie dolls. I would be like, "AWWW, so sweet! He is gonna be great daddy in the future!" Gosh it's like, I can't even imagine any of my chinese girlfriends, freaking out at their sons loving dolls.

My fault, Greta, I did not express myself as well as I should have. Did not mean to make the dolls so important. What I meant to say was that Nicole, at age 3, had pretty well established her core identity as a girl, even though her parents were trying to get her to perform boy stuff. The gender philosopher Judith Butler suggested (theorized) that we develop our gender by observing, doing, and repeating. Something she called performativity, which is a pretty controversial idea when it comes to gender development. It upset the apple cart for everyone who believed that gender was biology. By age 3 Nicole was a girl despite the male genes. I'm not educated enough to challenge Ms Butler; I just wanted to use her ideas to shake loose the unyielding conviction that if you have a dick you have to be a boy. And it really doesn't matter how other people treat you, as a boy or as a girl, you are what you make yourself to be.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Greta75)

Profile

Post #: 25

RE: Rachel Dolezal - 4/5/2017 8:30:58 PM

longwayhome

Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline

Surely it is incumbent upon parents to support their children whatever their sexuality or gender identity. My only concern is about what age you regard any sexuality or gender identity as permanent and what you do about it.

Being relaxed about a child's sexuality is relatively easy because you can be accepting of a child finding either gender attractive without labelling them. Plenty of others will do that for them anyway, and if you child starts in one place, changes as they grow and changes again as an adult, your reassurance that you love and do not judge them will at least give them some confidence to live their life and face the world.

My anxiety about gender identity and being a parent is that you can certainly be accepting of whatever gender role your child appears to identify with as a totally separate issue to their birth gender or sexuality. Encouraging a girl who is into boy's stuff or vice versa isn't such a big ask if you are open minded. The problem comes though when you watch what your child is doing and listen to what they want and then make decisions which reinforce a particular identity which might still be fluid.

It's easy in hindsight to say that you should have known that someone who has gender reassignment surgery as an adult identified as a different gender identity because they expressed a wish to be a boy or a girl when they were three and played with specific toys. That happens sometimes with children who grow up happily to be more "feminine" boys or "masculine" girls, where their early sense of discomfort is probably because they sense that society's expectations are different to what role they want.

It is a big step however to take a boy who likes "girl's" stuff and wonders why he is a boy and decide to embark upon a series of reinforcing actions at a very young age. I'm sure some parents who decide by the time their boy goes to school that they are gong to dress them in girl's clothes, give them hormonal treatment before puberty and encourage them in a surgical solution from a young age are entirely correct. Some children however express these desires when they are three or four and then develop into adults who are happy with their bodies (as much as anyone ever is these days) but feel free to take up whatever gender role or sexuality they want, without being hide-bound by what society wants.

I just think that being sure about taking reinforcing actions that start when a child is three involving clothes, hormones and surgery requires incredible insight, good guesswork or a huge dose of hindsight. Looking back and saying that you could have helped your child avoid all sorts of problems by sending them to school in the right clothes aged four is easier than actually making that decision when your child is three.

For that reason I sometimes feel somewhat uneasy when I see a child being set up for gender reassignment at that very young age. I feel a similar sense of unease when I see parents trying to impose "traditional" gender roles and sexuality on a child who wants to play with the wrong toys or be too boyish or girlie.

Trying to secure hormonal treatment for your "daughter" aged seven who you have sent to school as a girl but who was born male is starting to make irrevocable choices for them. Supporting an older child to come to terms with the trauma of gender reassignment surgery when they feel they have no choice is very different from consciously or sub-consciously preparing them from a very young age that such a surgery is an easy or necessary choice.

If we lived in a world where we did not penalise a child for presenting as one gender and then changing it later in child or adulthood, there would be no pressure to make any permanent decision to go down a track involving drugs and surgery. I can appreciate that some parents want to feel fixed about such issues before a child goes to school so that they avoid the trauma of a later change but I do wonder sometimes about the negative role nurture can have in cutting off choices for a child at too early an age.

That goes for forcing your child into traditional roles/identity/sexuality as much as it applies to giving your child a non-traditional or non-birth role or identity label at a young age and then running with it.

No matter how well meaning we are in trying to resolve what gender identity our children have to avoid later problems, either by reinforcing traditional or birth roles, identities or sexuality or by thinking we are being very liberal by deciding that a non-traditional role or non-birth gender is right for your child at an early age, we are surely to an extent just imposing our own prejudices. There is a big difference between bringing a child up in a loving environment to feel okay about whatever role/identity/sexuality they choose and picking one then reinforcing it based on what seems to be right at the age of three, six or ten for that matter.

Maybe if we gave people more permission to change how they wanted to present themselves to the world as they came to terms with who they were, we would not feel the need to impose or reinforce any particular role on our children at too young an age.

(in reply to vincentML)

Profile

Post #: 26

RE: Rachel Dolezal - 4/7/2017 3:15:43 PM

Angelberry

Posts: 8
Joined: 11/7/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Nicole was three years old when she insisted on playing with dolls. Same environment as her brother. How do we account for that?

To be honest, because my brother is only 2 years younger than me. I only have memories of him from his 7th year onwards, as we lived in two different homes in the beginning parts of my lives. I lived with my maternal Grandpa, and he was with my paternal Grandma, in two different homes. We never lived with our parents or each other until much later.

I think it's also interesting, because I grew up with my grandfather, so this means, I am not expose to dolls or any feminine stuffs. I was brought up like a boy and only did boys things.

My brother was brought up by my dad's mother who is super duper girly girly. Maybe he got his influence from her.

But if I see a 3 yr old boy into dolls or barbie dolls. I would be like, "AWWW, so sweet! He is gonna be great daddy in the future!" Gosh it's like, I can't even imagine any of my chinese girlfriends, freaking out at their sons loving dolls. They would be like, "Oh he is such a sensitive sweet boy!" Or "So young into girls already!" You know, we wouldn't even detect "gay" or potential "transgender" in it.

I wouldn't assume he is meant to be female!!!

Because it's a very maternal feeling that girls have towards dolls. So if a boy is into dolls, maybe he is just also the nurturing kind.

I mean, I was never into dolls, and I am female! Does that mean I meant to be male? I always hated dolls. I threw away all my barbies and dolls and soft toys that I got for my birthday by relatives by 8 yr old. People kept gifting me Barbies throughout my childhood because I'm a girl and I have no use for them.

The cartoons that I loved was He-man, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Transformers. Not very female cartoons.

And I used to be crazy about Hot Wheels for toys!

And I know soccer is a girlie sport specifically in the US. But for the rest of the world, it's a male dominated sport, and especially in my country, it's extremely rare to see women playing it. And that's what I played. Most female play net ball or volleyball or some crap like that.

I don't think that anyone is just automatically assuming that these children were meant to be the opposite sex as you seem to believe. In fact, the diagnosis of transgender is typically the last resort and a conclusion that is arrived upon after many hours of psychotherapy. It's actually not easy to get a transgender diagnosis, a good therapist will have you take other factors into consideration to explain your feelings.

(in reply to Greta75)

Profile

Post #: 27

RE: Rachel Dolezal - 4/7/2017 5:15:27 PM

Greta75

Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
What I meant to say was that Nicole, at age 3, had pretty well established her core identity as a girl, even though her parents were trying to get her to perform boy stuff.

I feel like I was precisely such a child. I am female who only liked boy stuffs, while my mom was in complete despair trying to make me like anything female. But I never felt less of a female just because I didn't like anything female-like. Didn't like dresses, didn't like make up. I didn't like accessories. I can't think of anything traditionally female I liked. Infact I probably dressed like a butch all my life.

I have female cousin who was also raised by my grandpa together with me, infact her whole life, longer than me, as her mom was unfit to take care of her, and she is way more feminine or girlie than me. She was interested in all the girls stuffs, so she's not as interested in all the boys stuffs at all. And me and my grandpa was having fun while she never got into alot of boys stuffs.

Like, the issue I have is, thinking a 3 yr old is abnormal for his gender, just because he reject male stuffs. To me, there is nothing wrong. Can't conclude he is meant to be female.

Parents should avoid drawing conclusions.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 4/7/2017 5:22:44 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Profile

Post #: 28

RE: Rachel Dolezal - 4/7/2017 5:27:37 PM

Greta75

Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Angelberry
I don't think that anyone is just automatically assuming that these children were meant to be the opposite sex as you seem to believe. In fact, the diagnosis of transgender is typically the last resort and a conclusion that is arrived upon after many hours of psychotherapy. It's actually not easy to get a transgender diagnosis, a good therapist will have you take other factors into consideration to explain your feelings.

I believe transgender surgery will be easily accessible to the rich. If the US won't do it, they can do it in another country.
Doesn't matter the diagnosis. The poor can't afford it anyway, but anybody with money can easily get sex change.

That's why it's so dangerous to fill these parents with ideas that their kids are meant to the opposite gender just because they don't like anything that is typical of their gender.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 4/7/2017 5:30:54 PM >

(in reply to Angelberry)

Profile

Post #: 29