RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 11:12:10 AM)

quote:

*- I do not know if Assad used the chemical weapons or not. I believe the Syrian Army is to blame, but I can not prove that (nor can I disprove it) it did. Thus, I have written that the US believes Assad's military used the weapons, which may or may not turn out to be true.

In any case it does not matter. There is no international agreement that permits the United States to take unilateral action unless it felt in imminent danger, which was never claimed by the Trumpatoons.




vincentML -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 11:14:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

I think I would give the Russians Iraq if it would guarantee the birds don't fly, at least for a while, because when they do, this is not going to be like past wars where you could sit comfortably at home and read about in the paper or watch death second-hand on TV. When those birds fly, EVERYBODY within their range is in the front line................................. and then you get what is quaintly termed 'Collateral Damage' from the fallout, depending on how dirty the bombs are and which way the prevailing winds blow. 'On the Beach' could become a reality in those circumstances.

I suspect the only deterrent is mutually assured destruction, which is certainly as mad and horrific as its initials suggest.


Then there's the leftist alternative, mass murdering communists win everything, every time

So, are you advocating a preemptive nuclear attack?


So predictably juvenile [:D]

That is a form of Godwins law...

Then, you have nothing of intellectual substance to contribute to the conversation as usual. Your "mass murdering communists" are a corollary of Goodwin's Law. Go away, loser. You are done here.




tamaka -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 11:25:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

*- I do not know if Assad used the chemical weapons or not. I believe the Syrian Army is to blame, but I can not prove that (nor can I disprove it) it did. Thus, I have written that the US believes Assad's military used the weapons, which may or may not turn out to be true.

In any case it does not matter. There is no international agreement that permits the United States to take unilateral action unless it felt in imminent danger, which was never claimed by the Trumpatoons.


We don't really care Vincent. When push comes to shove, we do what we want. Because we can.




Lucylastic -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 11:42:21 AM)

just like the mooselambs, but when was the last time syria bombed the US?
and its why , trust has fallen thru the arse of the world.




Kirata -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 11:45:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

*- I do not know if Assad used the chemical weapons or not. I believe the Syrian Army is to blame, but I can not prove that (nor can I disprove it) it did. Thus, I have written that the US believes Assad's military used the weapons, which may or may not turn out to be true.

In any case it does not matter. There is no international agreement that permits the United States to take unilateral action unless it felt in imminent danger, which was never claimed by the Trumpatoons.

I think it matters a great deal. I have seen no proof that Assad was responsible. He would have nothing to gain from using chemical weapons, and everything to lose. So I continue to find the rush to judgment more suspect than the legality of the response.

K.




Musicmystery -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 11:47:46 AM)

Point taken, but I think he means that the end result (not attacking) would be the same, and "doesn't matter" in that sense.




Politesub53 -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 12:29:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Im wondering why you are using another forum to back up your dribble without linking it....




They're anonymous quotes, the source is unimportant



None of your sources are important, that much we agree on.




Politesub53 -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 12:54:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Reprisals are legal under the Geneva conventions - the customary laws of war. Of which both we and Syria are signatories.



Care to show me where Syria has bombed America ? When you have done that you can show me why you are happy enough to quote the Geneva Conventions yet dont condone torture in Gitmo. Nor indiscriminate bombing, come to that.

Some serious cherry picking going on here.




Edwird -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 12:54:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

*- I do not know if Assad used the chemical weapons or not. I believe the Syrian Army is to blame, but I can not prove that (nor can I disprove it) it did. Thus, I have written that the US believes Assad's military used the weapons, which may or may not turn out to be true.

In any case it does not matter. There is no international agreement that permits the United States to take unilateral action unless it felt in imminent danger, which was never claimed by the Trumpatoons.

I think it matters a great deal.


Since when? Facts certainly were not of any consideration whatsoever in 2003, when it mattered most. All the media did in that case was to cover their collective ass some months later and say "They lied to us! Hmmph!" Rank ineptitude presented as 'Righteous Indignation!' Yeah, where have we seen that before?

So then whatever you or I might surmise to be the 'truth' in this matter is only for our own entertainment. The media have been digging ditches ever since that earlier episode to accept ever more lowering of the bar for 'integrity,' or putative 'ethical' standards' of any sort. But we at least have the 'leftist media' to thank for relating every sordid detail about Bill's various and sundry expeditions with various and sundry females. "Hey! Sorry about leaving you guys in the dark about Clinton's and Gingrich's war on poor people, or Clinton's and the Republican's supreme effort to deregulate the financial industry, which is the last thing anyone in his right mind would want to deregulate, but we were too busy bringing you the more important news of whom Bill was going to fuck next. Sorry."

quote:

I have seen no proof that Assad was responsible. He would have nothing to gain from using chemical weapons, and everything to lose. So I continue to find the rush to judgment more suspect than the legality of the response.


I can't say I'm with you on that one, though I am not going to outright deny your conjecture, either.

Desperate circumstances will sometimes invoke desperate measures, and the Syrian government (which is to say Assad) is not in a good place right now.





Politesub53 -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 12:58:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

*- I do not know if Assad used the chemical weapons or not. I believe the Syrian Army is to blame, but I can not prove that (nor can I disprove it) it did. Thus, I have written that the US believes Assad's military used the weapons, which may or may not turn out to be true.

In any case it does not matter. There is no international agreement that permits the United States to take unilateral action unless it felt in imminent danger, which was never claimed by the Trumpatoons.

I think it matters a great deal. I have seen no proof that Assad was responsible. He would have nothing to gain from using chemical weapons, and everything to lose. So I continue to find the rush to judgment more suspect than the legality of the response.

K.



No proof....... are you fucking serious. if not Syrian aircraft then it must have been the Russians or the US and its Allies. Someone sure as hell dropped those bombs..




tamaka -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 1:53:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Reprisals are legal under the Geneva conventions - the customary laws of war. Of which both we and Syria are signatories.



Care to show me where Syria has bombed America ? When you have done that you can show me why you are happy enough to quote the Geneva Conventions yet dont condone torture in Gitmo. Nor indiscriminate bombing, come to that.

Some serious cherry picking going on here.



They didn't have to do anything to the US. Using chemical weapons against their own people was a valid reason for a reprisal.




vincentML -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 2:32:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Reprisals are legal under the Geneva conventions - the customary laws of war. Of which both we and Syria are signatories.



Care to show me where Syria has bombed America ? When you have done that you can show me why you are happy enough to quote the Geneva Conventions yet dont condone torture in Gitmo. Nor indiscriminate bombing, come to that.

Some serious cherry picking going on here.



They didn't have to do anything to the US. Using chemical weapons against their own people was a valid reason for a reprisal.


Uh, no, Tamaka, you need to read the documents posted above with a little more care and read the dictionary definition of "reprisal." None of the agreements give unilateral permission for one nation or any other to become the Sheriff. Trump acted out of impulse without even concurrence of his own Congress. Aylee continues to grip the notion of reprisals between her teeth without examining what the word means and what the international conventions call for. I ask Aylee, show me one line in the docs that give retaliatory agency to any one nation.




tamaka -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 2:46:11 PM)

These are the conditions. I don't see a problem.


Conditions
Five conditions must be met in order for belligerent reprisals against permitted categories of persons and objects not to be unlawful. Most of these conditions are laid down in military manuals and are supported by official statements. These conditions are:
(i) Purpose of reprisals. Reprisals may only be taken in reaction to a prior serious violation of international humanitarian law, and only for the purpose of inducing the adversary to comply with the law. This condition is set forth in numerous military manuals, as well as in the legislation of some States.[12] It is also confirmed in national case-law.[13]
Because reprisals are a reaction to a prior serious violation of international humanitarian law, “anticipatory” reprisals or “counter-reprisals” are not permissible, nor can belligerent reprisals be a reaction to a violation of another type of law. In addition, as reprisals are aimed at inducing the adversary to comply with the law, they may not be carried out for the purpose of revenge or punishment.
There is limited practice allowing reprisals against allies of the violating State but it dates back to the arbitration in the Cysne case in 1930 and to the Second World War.[14] Practice since then appears to indicate that resort to such reprisals is no longer valid. According to the Draft Articles on State Responsibility, countermeasures are legitimate only “against a State which is responsible for an internationally wrongful act”.[15] This element of responsibility is also reflected in some military manuals.[16] However, whereas most military manuals remain silent on the question of reprisals against allies of the violating State, Italy’s IHL Manual expressly states that a reprisal can, “as a general rule, only be directed against the belligerent that violated the laws of war”.[17] Other military manuals explain that reprisals are used against another State in order to induce that State to stop the violation of international law.[18]
Some military manuals specify that in the light of their specific purpose, reprisals must be announced as such and publicized so that the adversary is aware of its obligation to comply with the law.[19]
(ii) Measure of last resort. Reprisals may only be carried out as a measure of last resort, when no other lawful measures are available to induce the adversary to respect the law. This condition is set forth in many military manuals.[20] It is confirmed by national case-law.[21] It is also repeated in the statements and proposals made by States at the Diplomatic Conference leading to the adoption of the Additional Protocols, before the International Court of Justice in the Nuclear Weapons case and on other occasions, when it was sometimes mentioned that prior warning must be given and/or that other measures must have failed before resorting to reprisals.[22] In its reservation concerning reprisals made upon ratification of Additional Protocol I, the United Kingdom reserved the right to take reprisal action “only after formal warning to the adverse party requiring cessation of the violations has been disregarded”.[23]
According to the Draft Articles on State Responsibility, before taking countermeasures an injured State must call on the responsible State to fulfil its obligations, notify the responsible State of any decision to take countermeasures and offer to negotiate with that State.[24] In its judgment in the Kupreškić case in 2000, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia confirmed what had already been stated by the Special Arbitral Tribunal in the Naulilaa case in 1928, namely that reprisals may only be carried out after a warning to the adverse party requiring cessation of the violations has remained unheeded.[25]
(iii) Proportionality. Reprisal action must be proportionate to the violation it aims to stop. This condition was already laid down in 1880 in the Oxford Manual and was recently reaffirmed in the Draft Articles on State Responsibility.[26] It is also contained in many military manuals.[27] Furthermore, there is case-law concerning violations committed in the Second World War in which the accused’s claims that their acts had been committed as lawful reprisals were rejected because, inter alia, they were found to be disproportionate to the original violation.[28]
The requirement that reprisal measures be proportionate to the original wrong is repeated in various statements and proposals made by States at the Diplomatic Conference leading to the adoption of the Additional Protocols, before the International Court of Justice in the Nuclear Weapons case and on other occasions.[29] In its reservation concerning reprisals made upon ratification of Additional Protocol I, the United Kingdom stated that “any measures thus taken by the United Kingdom will not be disproportionate to the violations giving rise thereto”.[30]
The International Court of Justice in its advisory opinion in the Nuclear Weapons case in 1996 and the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in its judgment in the Kupreškić case in 2000 confirmed what the Special Arbitral Tribunal had already stated in the Naulilaa case in 1928, namely that belligerent reprisals are subject to the principle of proportionality.[31]
Most of the practice collected requires that acts taken in reprisal be proportionate to the original violation. Only a few pieces of practice specify that proportionality must be observed with regard to the damage suffered.[32]
(iv) Decision at the highest level of government. The decision to resort to reprisals must be taken at the highest level of government. Whereas the Oxford Manual states that only a commander in chief is entitled to authorize reprisals,[33] more recent practice indicates that such a decision must be taken at the highest political level.[34] State practice confirming this condition is found in military manuals, as well as in some national legislation and official statements.[35] In its reservation concerning reprisals made upon ratification of Additional Protocol I, the United Kingdom stated that reprisals would be taken “only after a decision taken at the highest level of government”.[36]
In its judgment in the Kupreškić case in 2000, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia held that the decision to resort to a reprisal must be taken at the highest political or military level and may not be decided by local commanders.[37]
(v) Termination. Reprisal action must cease as soon as the adversary complies with the law. This condition, formulated as a formal prohibition in the event that the original wrong had been repaired, was already laid down in 1880 in the Oxford Manual and was recently restated in the Draft Articles on State Responsibility.[38] It is also contained in several military manuals, official statements and reported practice.[39] In its reservation concerning reprisals made upon ratification of Additional Protocol I, the United Kingdom stated that reprisals would not be continued “after the violations have ceased”.[40]
In its judgment in the Kupreškić case in 2000, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia confirmed that reprisal action must stop as soon as the unlawful act has been discontinued.[41]

[




DesideriScuri -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 4:15:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
http://www.cwc.gov/cwc_treaty_article_12.html
Or are you suggesting that we violate the treaties and conventions we are signatories to even though doing so would be unconstitutional?


Did you even read the fucking page you linked to?!?

Paragraph 1. We're going to do what we say we're going to do in the next 3 paragraphs(this does not say the US can drop bombs on them)

Paragraph 2. If a State Party doesn't act according to the Executive Council's will, they lose the rights and privileges of membership in the CWC until they comply. (this does not say the US can drop bombs on them)

Paragraph 3. If it's really bad activity, the EC can recommend collective measures in accordance with international law. (this does not say the US can drop bombs on them)

Paragraph 4. If it's really, really bad, the EC can take it to the UNGA and UNSC. (this does not say the US can drop bombs on them)

If the UNSC authorizes force, we have the authority necessary to drop bombs on Syria.

You get an 'A' for effort, though.




DesideriScuri -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 4:16:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
No, no, no! Who are we to decide who gets reprisals? Who are we to be the arbiters of justice when someone runs afoul of the customary laws of war? Who are we to be in that role, when we're guilty of also running afoul the customary laws of war?
I hope you realize that damn near anything can be rationalized as a threat to National Security.
China and Japan are threats to National Security since they own so much of our debt. Russia is a threat to National Security since they could launch nukes. France, Israel, Pakistan, and India are among the nuclear armed countries. They pose a threat.
Syria did not, and does not, post a threat to US National Security. There is no basis for us having the authority to bomb Assad's assets.

We are who we say we are, and we say that you have been outvoted.


Thank God we're not a straight democracy...




DesideriScuri -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 4:19:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

*- I do not know if Assad used the chemical weapons or not. I believe the Syrian Army is to blame, but I can not prove that (nor can I disprove it) it did. Thus, I have written that the US believes Assad's military used the weapons, which may or may not turn out to be true.

In any case it does not matter. There is no international agreement that permits the United States to take unilateral action unless it felt in imminent danger, which was never claimed by the Trumpatoons.

I think it matters a great deal. I have seen no proof that Assad was responsible. He would have nothing to gain from using chemical weapons, and everything to lose. So I continue to find the rush to judgment more suspect than the legality of the response.
K.


If I read Vince's post correctly, he's saying it doesn't matter if Assad used chemical weapons or not, there is no international law authorizing the US to drop bombs on Syria.




Kirata -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 4:40:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I think it matters a great deal. I have seen no proof that Assad was responsible. He would have nothing to gain from using chemical weapons, and everything to lose. So I continue to find the rush to judgment more suspect than the legality of the response.

No proof....... are you fucking serious. if not Syrian aircraft then it must have been the Russians or the US and its Allies. Someone sure as hell dropped those bombs..

Yeah no, that tack needs sharpening. A more plausible explanation is that the gas was released when the Syrian bombs hit a chemical weapons cache at the target.

K.





Aylee -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 4:43:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Reprisals are legal under the Geneva conventions - the customary laws of war. Of which both we and Syria are signatories.



Care to show me where Syria has bombed America ? When you have done that you can show me why you are happy enough to quote the Geneva Conventions yet dont condone torture in Gitmo. Nor indiscriminate bombing, come to that.

Some serious cherry picking going on here.



They didn't have to do anything to the US. Using chemical weapons against their own people was a valid reason for a reprisal.


Uh, no, Tamaka, you need to read the documents posted above with a little more care and read the dictionary definition of "reprisal." None of the agreements give unilateral permission for one nation or any other to become the Sheriff. Trump acted out of impulse without even concurrence of his own Congress. Aylee continues to grip the notion of reprisals between her teeth without examining what the word means and what the international conventions call for. I ask Aylee, show me one line in the docs that give retaliatory agency to any one nation.



It is really self-defense. It is in our vital National interest that chemical weapons not be used. That it does not become a "new normal" to use them.

It is quite possible that in the last hundred years, people have forgotten just how terrible chemical weapons are. How much of an atrocity they are.

It may be that people need a reminder of why Chemical WMDs are on the 'Must Not Use' list? Maybe provide Assad the means to whack one of his own cities so hard that no one can live there for fifty or a hundred years?

I personally hate having to say this, but it may come to pass that such an atrocity has to happen. And, if it has to happen, maybe inside of Syria is the best place for it to happen. Imagine Tokyo, or St Petersberg struck by a massive WMD attack, or Chicago, because ISIS thought they would not be punished for it.

Such an attack on the US or Russia would result in genocide of course, with the US or Russia actually creating, then using agents that would blister the skin and lungs of their victims, before their eyeballs melted and their bones splintered from convulsing agents.

That's the horror if we can't stop it here...




WickedsDesire -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 4:52:51 PM)

Yes you take that...naughty runways. Guffaws Christ you are all dumb.

heh that reminds me ameranshire infidels where did the other 25 cruise missiles land




tamaka -> RE: U.S. Attacks Syria (4/13/2017 4:59:07 PM)

This is an interesting site i just found.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/home




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