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RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 8:52:30 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

That would require a bureaucracy to administer, with all the associated additional costs, which will predictably expand until they consume any gains.


Two points. And first, I don't know how it's going to work either, and will be curious to see as well.

1) Yes, it needs administration, but it's replacing various previous agencies.
2) That it will "predictably expand" to "consume any gains" is an assumption, just speculation. (yes, I know that will invite snark from the usual suspects).


you heard it from yours truly when it was first suggested that it wont work because it cant work, not long term not under capitalism, especially american style capitalism, but that wont stop them from trying to pound square pegs into round holes while they bleed people dry and their pals expand da'mobcracy a little deeper up our asses.

It works in every other major western country.

Here, we pay more than any other country, but don't have universal health care. How's that working?



it worked great when I was a child before gubmint mobsters stuck their fingers in the pie. My father was the sole breadwinner paid all the family medical bills out of pocket with change left over. Not today, not now that the only way you can get medication is through the medical cabal with your permission slip from a doctor and its become a bandaid industry rather than curing disease hypocratic profession.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 8:59:26 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Wonder how it is going to be paid for?

Well you know, when it comes to insurance, the more widely you spread the risk the fairer the premiums become for everyone, and if you take profit out of the equation then you get the lowest premium cost possible in the bargain, all of which would seem to make single payer pretty much a no-brainer.
But for it to actually work you have to balance the amount of money available, the fees that can be charged for the services provided, and the availability of medical personnel, each of which will have interaction effects on the other two. That would require a bureaucracy to administer, with all the associated additional costs, which will predictably expand until they consume any gains.
So while single payer does seem to be theoretically appealing, I just don't know how good an idea it would turn out to be in practice. But I'm happy to see a state try it. If they can find a way to make it work, great. Then maybe we can make it work for the nation. And if they can't, then maybe they'll be saving the rest of the country from making a mistake.
K.


The wider you spread the risk, the less fair it can get. The wider you spread the risk, the greater the risk involved is, the more risk the pool encompasses. Those who are more likely to use the insurance most are adding the most risk to the pool, but aren't paying according to their risk profile. Those who are less likely to use the insurance a lot present the lowest amount of risk, but will be paying well above their risk profile. It's truly only fair for those who are likely going to use and average amount of insurance, because they will likely be paying about their risk profile.




but thats how taxes work, I pay for plenty of shit I do not and never will make use of, no way I can ever get out close to what I put in. Its the path everyone wanted this country to take looking for freebees, hows that working?



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 9:09:07 AM   
Nnanji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

FR

So you're upset about money being spent on healthcare, and yet I've seen nothing on here from you cons about frustrations regarding the billions of taxpayer money being wasted so Trump can go golfing every weekend halfway across the country. If you're equally upset at that, please say so and I'll shut the hell up. Otherwise the hypocrisy here is simply remarkable.

So what you're saying is that it was okay for Obama to golf all of the time because the libs didn't bitch about him doubling the deficit?

(in reply to Tkman117)
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RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 9:13:27 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

but thats how taxes work, I pay for plenty of shit I do not and never will make use of, no way I can ever get out close to what I put in. Its the path everyone wanted this country to take looking for freebees, hows that working?

I do feel like US taxes are insane. With that kind of tax you guys are paying. It should technically cover medical insurance as well.
US just sucks at budgeting and using their taxpayers money wisely!


(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 9:31:53 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		US pays far lower taxes than most developed western nations.

Americans like to pretend it's not so. It is.

(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 10:26:43 AM   
KenDckey


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Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		Single payer insurance would be payment to the state, thus both creating a monopoly and putting insurance out of busness within the sttate. I wonder if this might be a RICO violation. I also wonder if the state then would maintain control over the health care decisions of the people, how much pay health care officials and institutions can make within the state, I would consider this does meet the requirements of ACA. Would this include worker comp medical issues since the state is the sole payer? What about elective procedures, where do they fall into the mix?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 10:34:38 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

US pays far lower taxes than most developed western nations.

Americans like to pretend it's not so. It is.

I don't see how it is low though. Most of them are paying like 35% to 40% over all isn't it?

I guess compared to us. We pay nothing if we make under 30k. After all the subsidies. Then after that, it's just 4%.

But for them, I remembered their tax rate, they start taxing people who just makes 6k per annum or something. I can't imagine people earning so little being able to afford taxes.

Looking at the other thread about Millionaires leaving Germany, so they are losing money on taxes from high income group!

US needs to encourage more rich folks to migrate to the US, and then have less tax loopholes for them, so that, they can use that money to fund their health program!

Just googled and look. This is just Federal Tax Rate, and it's damn high! Haven't included their individual state income tax on top of that yet! Since all states are different, hard to calculate that, but that's still alot!

$0—$13,250 10%
$13,251—$50,400 $1,325 plus 15% of the amount over $13,250
$50,401—$130,150 $6,897.50 plus 25% of the amount over $50,400
$130,151—$210,800 $26,835 plus 28% of the amount over $130,150
$210,801—$413,350 $49,417 plus 33% of the amount over $210,800
$413,351—$441,000 $116,258.50 plus 35% of the amount over $413,350
$441,001 or more $125,936 plus 39.6% of the amount over $441,000

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 4/28/2017 10:41:19 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 10:48:42 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

US pays far lower taxes than most developed western nations.

Americans like to pretend it's not so. It is.



citation (with the numbers) please

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 10:55:26 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

US pays far lower taxes than most developed western nations.

Americans like to pretend it's not so. It is.

I don't see how it is low though. Most of them are paying like 35% to 40% over all isn't it?

I guess compared to us. We pay nothing if we make under 30k. After all the subsidies. Then after that, it's just 4%.




people here pay taxes on the social security checks if they make more than 25k FFS.

people here pay taxes for items needed to survive, (a roof over their head), under the pre-revolutionary war brit tax scheme still used today.

In america you are taxed for items necessary for survival which is just more of the zionist criminal bullshit since it was not that way immediately after the revolution, but it degenerated right back to pre revolution days

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 10:57:02 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Single payer insurance would be payment to the state, thus both creating a monopoly and putting insurance out of busness within the sttate. I wonder if this might be a RICO violation. I also wonder if the state then would maintain control over the health care decisions of the people, how much pay health care officials and institutions can make within the state, I would consider this does meet the requirements of ACA. Would this include worker comp medical issues since the state is the sole payer? What about elective procedures, where do they fall into the mix?



For the states? Its competition since the state is an insurance company, especially the way the general welfare clause has been distorted, think about that.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 11:21:46 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Single payer insurance would be payment to the state, thus both creating a monopoly and putting insurance out of busness within the sttate. I wonder if this might be a RICO violation. I also wonder if the state then would maintain control over the health care decisions of the people, how much pay health care officials and institutions can make within the state, I would consider this does meet the requirements of ACA. Would this include worker comp medical issues since the state is the sole payer? What about elective procedures, where do they fall into the mix?


You'd have to prove the racketeering part.

The Legislature didn't give the State the authority to govern pay for health care officials or institutions. It's quite a strong-arm proposition, though, barring any other insurer to cover anything covered by the State. The State gets to negotiate prices of procedures, medications, etc. If the State is the only way a care provider can get paid for services rendered, the only leverage as provider has is in actually providing the service or not. Sure, MRI's might only cost the State $50, but good luck finding a provider. This could get interesting to watch. You might see an explosion of medical "boutiques" that only provide services not covered by the State plan.

The bottom line, however, is that the California Legislature has every authority to pass this legislation. If it's not representative of the wishes of the citizens of California, that will be seen at subsequent elections. I think they're going to find out it's a lot harder than they thought it would be.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 1:02:28 PM   
sloguy02246


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

US pays far lower taxes than most developed western nations.

Americans like to pretend it's not so. It is.

I don't see how it is low though. Most of them are paying like 35% to 40% over all isn't it?

I guess compared to us. We pay nothing if we make under 30k. After all the subsidies. Then after that, it's just 4%.




people here pay taxes on the social security checks if they make more than 25k FFS.

people here pay taxes for items needed to survive, (a roof over their head), under the pre-revolutionary war brit tax scheme still used today.

In america you are taxed for items necessary for survival which is just more of the zionist criminal bullshit since it was not that way immediately after the revolution, but it degenerated right back to pre revolution days


Point 1) Yes, people may pay income taxes on part of their social security benefits if they exceed certain income levels.
However, what appears as a deduction on workers' paychecks is only half of the required social security tax. The other half is paid by their employer and does not appear on the workers' paychecks.

Point 2) Paying taxes (sales taxes, I assume?) does apply to "survival" items, as well as non-"survival" items. Not sure what your point is here, because...

Point 3) I doubt that sales taxes originated solely because of "zionist criminal bullshit." I think the states decided they were a simple way to generate revenue.

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 1:06:30 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

it worked great when I was a child before gubmint mobsters stuck their fingers in the pie. My father was the sole breadwinner paid all the family medical bills out of pocket with change left over. Not today, not now that the only way you can get medication is through the medical cabal with your permission slip from a doctor and its become a bandaid industry rather than curing disease hypocratic profession.[/color]


Your memory is faulty.

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 1:09:22 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Real0ne

thats how taxes work,

I pay for plenty of shit I do not and never will make use of, no way I can ever get out close to what I put in. Its the path everyone wanted this country to take
looking for freebees, hows that working?


You really have no clue what a society is or why we form ourselves into societies.
Jesus you are phoquing stupid.


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 4/28/2017 1:54:37 PM >

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 1:16:58 PM   
bounty44


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Status: offline 		this has some of that information:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 1:23:06 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

this has some of that information:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally

But considering Australia has "free healthcare" and is almost the same as the US, just 2% more.

US is over paying taxes since their tax rate does not include free health care.

And if people could pay 2% more in taxes just to receive free healthcare for life, would they?

Infact the point I was making is. UK is at 32% and Canada is at 31%.

US being at 26%. So if they just paid 6% extra tax per annum extra for free medical care, no deductibles, fully covered. That's still so much cheaper than Obama care!

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 4/28/2017 1:24:51 PM >

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RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 1:25:28 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri



The wider you spread the risk, the less fair it can get.


Only if there are more sick people than not sick people so you are beginning with a false premis.


The wider you spread the risk, the greater the risk involved is, the more risk the pool encompasses.

Perhaps you could show how that works. Since it is pretty clear that there are not more sick people than not sick people.

Those who are more likely to use the insurance most are adding the most risk to the pool, but aren't paying according to their risk profile.


False premise = false conclusion.

Those who are less likely to use the insurance a lot present the lowest amount of risk, but will be paying well above their risk profile.


Isn't that the nature of all insurance?

It's truly only fair for those who are likely going to use and average amount of insurance, because they will likely be paying about their risk profile.

Are you one of those people who would snort small-pox germs just so you could collect on the insurance?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 1:28:19 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Greta75



I do feel like US taxes are insane. With that kind of tax you guys are paying. It should technically cover medical insurance as well.
US just sucks at budgeting and using their taxpayers money wisely!


All one need do to understand the why of it is to look at our military budget.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 1:40:27 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Single payer insurance would be payment to the state, thus both creating a monopoly and putting insurance out of busness within the sttate.


Kinda like the puc, the military the fire department, the police department.


I wonder if this might be a RICO violation.

I wonder how you can be so stupid as to ask such a question.


I also wonder if the state then would maintain control over the health care decisions of the people,


Do the medical insurance companies do that????They most certainly do through the premium you pay. Do those countries that have a national
health care system do that???? If not why would you think that california would?


how much pay health care officials and institutions can make within the state,

Of course they would that is one of the purposes of national health care.


I would consider this does meet the requirements of ACA. Would this include worker comp medical issues since the state is the sole payer?

Why wouldn't it?


What about elective procedures, where do they fall into the mix?

Again,,,why wouldn't it?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 4/28/2017 1:57:13 PM >

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Cal SB 562 - Universal Health Care - 4/28/2017 1:41:54 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: Kirata


An assumption, yes. Speculative, not so much.

K.

By looking where others have already gone might be a way to change speculation to objective reality.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 40
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