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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 9:58:29 AM   
BoscoX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

"Thou shall not kill."

Seems very clear. No caveats, exceptions, special circumstances.

Yet Christian nations violate it continually. Gun-owners make it clear trespassers will be killed.

"Turn the other cheek."
"Love your enemy as your self."

Sounds like a violent group of extremists ignoring spiritual teachings to pursue their own agenda.

So much for the influence of the contents of Scripture.


Short on time here, but to paint it with broad strokes - tell those same people "thou shall kill, it pleases Allah" and pass laws demanding that the people kill everyone who isn't exactly like them, and you have Muslims




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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 10:07:32 AM   
Musicmystery


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Turns out, then, that most Muslims aren't listening.

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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 10:15:58 AM   
BoscoX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Turns out, then, that most Muslims aren't listening.


A lie, that

Most infidels who once inhabited many of the lands that the Muslim hordes have savaged, are long dead

Almost 300 million souls by some estimates

And counting

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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 10:55:11 AM   
Musicmystery


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I see you're not good at math. Or English.

"Most Muslims" haven't been killing infidels. Nor do you have any data that shows otherwise.

Add up how many people have been killed over the centuries by "Christian" nations. And counting.


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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 11:13:08 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Turns out, then, that most Muslims aren't listening.


A lie, that

Most infidels who once inhabited many of the lands that the Muslim hordes have savaged, are long dead

Almost 300 million souls by some estimates

And counting

Everybody who lived in China when the mongol hordes invaded is dead.
Everybody who lived in Haiti during the slave uprising is dead.
The whole population of London when Samuel Peyps wrote his diaries is dead.
Talking about somebody who lived centuries ago being dead doesn't prove much.

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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 12:08:15 PM   
BoscoX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I see you're not good at math. Or English.

"Most Muslims" haven't been killing infidels. Nor do you have any data that shows otherwise.

Add up how many people have been killed over the centuries by "Christian" nations. And counting.




Doesn't take a math wiz to realize that 300 million is a lot of dead people for one cult

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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 12:15:21 PM   
Musicmystery


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Doesn't take a math wiz to realize that 300 million dead (your number) over 1400 years at the hands (your claim) of 1.6 billion Muslims living today plus the billions that have ever lived over those 1400 years is a very small percentage.

So we know you're not a math wiz.




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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 12:17:38 PM   
WickedsDesire


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fuk off with you incoherent babble 300 million lies you dredged from your lavy pan of hysterical jobbies.
You are aware that bathroom graffiti is not actual factual, nor should be smeared on the walls as source information?

Do you live in your mums basement - I always wondered that you pathetic fuk of a no hoper?

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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 12:17:49 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Your entire response to my post, and your entire argument rely on the the claim that "the articles are absolutely correct".
Wrong. I make multiple points, none of which hinge on that idea at all. I state that the articles are correct, however my argument has nothing to do with that fact. You are incredibly bad at this.

quote:

As far as I know you are the only person advancing this falsehood, as the author of the claims, News Corp has accepted that the articles were false.
No. They haven't. They settled. That's not an acceptance of anything, other than that they chose not to continue.

quote:

Initially, News Corp tried to defend its claims on the basis that they were "substantially true" but abandoned this defence when it became very clear that News Corp had made false and erroneous claims of fact.
They chose to settle for their own reasons. You're speculating on what those reasons are, then claiming your speculations are fact. Again with the low intelligence. Good Lord, you're simply awful at the reasoning thing.

quote:

All this is spelt out in black and white in the Guardian reports which I cited in my original post here and here. Spelt out in terms so clear and simple that a 10 year old could understand them. But terms you fail to grasp - a failure so glaring that one suspects you are either blinded by prejudice or allergic to facts and reality or possibly both.
No, they're not. You simply have a very tenuous grasp on the interrelations between cause and effect. I repeat - since you so clearly have trouble understanding the concepts therein - News Corp chose to settle, the details of the settlement are confidential and the Grand Mufti is a fucking hypocrite since it seems likely he took money from them.

quote:


You are either unable or unwilling to accept that all the parties - News Corp, the Mufti and the courts - agree that the anti-Islam claims published by News Corp were false.
I feel sorry for you. You're clearly so intellectually handicapped you're unable to read an article and understand it. First, the claims made by News Corp were "anti-Grand Mufti", not anti-Islamic. Secondly those claims were not tested in court, a libel action was brought by the Grand Mufti. Third, there was a private settlement, not a finding of fact by the court. Your extrapolation from this to "the courts agree these claims are false" betrays such a fundamental inability to follow a simple chain of logic, that it's no wonder you spend your days in fruitless debates on the internet - because in the real world your lack of debating prowess gets your ludicrous claims swatted away with ease.

quote:

And so the entire edifice you have built around this false claim turns out to be flimsier than a house of cards and collapses just as easily.
You're clearly intellectually challenged and probably mentally disturbed as well.

quote:

Despite these multiple prejudice-driven faults you plough on, accusing others of precisely the same blatant errors of fact and bias that permeate your own post and argument (such as it is):
Given you can't even understand the article, we can probably estimate your ability to analyse my efforts as pretty much nil. You're basically too stupid for this discussion.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
Like Peon, you are an incredibly poor thinker and... frankly.. not all that bright. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence should be able to understand the implications of this case, but you're making unsubstantiated claims based upon wishes and prejudice, not on anything remotely dwelling in the realm of fact or evidence.


As shown conclusively above, the "poor thinking" here is all yours and yours alone. You are the only person who has failed to grasp the implications of the case, and you alone persist in "making unsubstantiated claims based upon wishes and prejudice", claims abandoned by their author, News Corp. Your inane allegations rely entirely claims that you know to be false, that all parties to the legal case agree are false, claims that are described perfectly by your own phrase "wishes and prejudice, not [based] on anything remotely dwelling in the realm of fact or evidence".

Your argument, and your worldview exist in the realm of "wishes and prejudice", of fantasy. There is no connection between the argument you advanced and the facts of the matter as accepted by the courts. You fail totally to grasp that News Corp lost, that it agrees its claims are false. Following on from this failure to grasp the reality and implications of the court proceedings, you advance a series of ridiculous claims that have no merit outside the confines of your wholly prejudiced mind.

While fellow fruitcakes everywhere might be persuaded by your nonsense, I doubt any one with an open mind is. Sadly, I should really have come to expect childish petulant nonsense from you - describing the reality that the rest of us experience has never been your strong point.
Watching you rise to the bait while simultaneously mocking yourself used to be entertaining. Now I realise just how hamstrung you are in the thinking department, I kind of feel like I'm beating up on the disabled kid.




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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 12:18:03 PM   
mnottertail


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and whats the death count for xtians over that 1400 years?

bout the same I think.

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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 12:22:44 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Like Peon, you are an incredibly poor thinker and... frankly.. not all that bright.


A, please. You're simply not in a position to talk about other people's brightness or thinking abilities.
Yes, Peon I am. Mainly because I'm smarter than the both of you. And the fact is, you both know it.

quote:

All you generally contribute to these debates on Islam is prejudice, wrapped up in pomposity, with a bit of googling to give it a little veneer. You need to get an education, lad. There's no substitute for it.
I'm an autodidact Peon. I have an education. And while you keep trying to push the "you don't have a degree" button in the vain hope it'll trigger a response, I can tell you with utter sincerity that the only reaction you gain from it is amusement on my part.

It was Frank Herbert who said: "Education is no substitute for intelligence" - an aphorism which, I'm afraid, you and Twink confirm on an ongoing basis.

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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 12:25:16 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

and whats the death count for xtians over that 1400 years?

bout the same I think.
Given that the Crusades were a response to multiple Islamic invasions, I figure that's pretty fucking unlikely.


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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 12:56:51 PM   
Musicmystery


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Pretty revisionist. Urban wanted to establish Christendom. Mostly, they killed Byzantium Christians.

Not the sharpest tools in the shed.

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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 1:41:46 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

It seems to me far more reasonable and likely that a confluence of social economic and political factors pre-dispose their victims towards extremist ideologies - extreme situations create a fertile breeding ground for extremist solutions. The ideology provides a post-facto rationalisation of both the extreme situation and the extreme solution (terrorism).


Really, Tweak ... I'm inclined almost to say 'forget it'. I've noticed that on these boards people do not generally *do* 'social, economic and political factors' that predispose people towards extremist ideologies. What you'll get is psychological hypothesising (generally of the cod sort) - and that will generally be that.

Or, at least, that's the case when examining the motives of the average home-grown right wing terrorist, like Dylann Roof. When it comes to Islamic terrorism though, why, you don't even need cod-psychology. You just need a copy of the Koran - for that alone describes *everything* that any given Muslim's mind *is*. The mind of a starving Muslim whose wife and children have just been blasted by a bomb from a Syrian jet will be *exactly the same* as the mind of the chubby little Muslim guy who runs the local corner shop in a Suffolk village.

You know the most pisspoor, dismal thing of all, for me? It's when some pompous windbag who has a hang up about his/her lack of education, tries to trash the knowledge that various people have picked up in the social sciences as 'unscientific'. Then, they proceed to replace it with the most wildly anti-scientific hogwash there could be. I mean, I've clocked that you're a fan of Herr Feyerabend and no doubt have a certain sympathy for his epistemological anarchy - as do I. But that doesn't mean that the undereducated flatulence of every hyper-egotistical plonker who rolls into the room with his megaphone is absolutely to be treated as of equal value to the knowledge people have actually been trained in.

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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 4:51:25 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
As far as I know you are the only person advancing this falsehood, as the author of the claims, News Corp has accepted that the articles were false.
No. They haven't. They settled. That's not an acceptance of anything, other than that they chose not to continue.

quote:

Initially, News Corp tried to defend its claims on the basis that they were "substantially true" but abandoned this defence when it became very clear that News Corp had made false and erroneous claims of fact.
They chose to settle for their own reasons. You're speculating on what those reasons are, then claiming your speculations are fact. Again with the low intelligence. Good Lord, you're simply awful at the reasoning thing.


So you are still insisting that the claims made by News Corp are true, despite twice being acquainted with the facts of the matter. And the facts of the matter contradict your claims totally. Below are the unambiguous facts of the matter as The Guardian reports:
Australia’s grand mufti has won a defamation case over News Corp articles depicting him as an “unwise” monkey and asserting he had failed to condemn the 2015 terrorist attacks in Paris. News Corp consented to the judgment as part of a confidential settlement. [snip]
Mohamed, Australia’s most senior Sunni scholar, sued News Corp for defamation early last year, and verdicts were entered by agreement with News Corp in his favour in the NSW supreme court on Friday


By "consent[ing] to the judgement ... in [the Mufti's] favour", News Corp agreed that the claims they published were wrong, and that the Mufti had in fact condemned both terrorism generally and the Paris massacre in particular. Clearly your ignorance of legal matters is such that you are unaware of what "consenting to a judgement" means. As you seem to have severe problems understanding this simple proposition, I will spell it out for you in terms any 10 year old will understand - it means that News Corps agrees that its claims were false and that the Mufti's defence is valid.

You don't even need to understand the legal aspects of this matter to agree that News Corp's claims are false. News Corp's claims are contradicted by the public record, as you would be aware if you had bothered to read the second of the articles I linked in my post. This details News Corp's false claims and compares them to the relevant facts available on the public record. In short, all you have to do to realise that your claim that News Corp's allegations about the Mufti are false is to be literate, to be able to read and read the relevant facts as listed in the linked article. While there is disagreement about the precise limits of your ignorance, it's surely not too much to expect that you are able to read simple English and comprehend it ... yet you repeatedly fail to meet this minimal expectation.

So the undeniable fact is that News Corp, the Mufti, the courts and the public record all agree that News Corp's claims were false and defamatory. As you alone are the only person still maintaining that the claims were "true", that leaves you as stranded as a beached whale, a great big lump of lard suffocating on its own bombast and pomposity. In short your position is so ridiculous that not even News Corp would agree with it or support it. As your entire position is built around the false claim that News Corp's claims are "true", your entire position, both legally and generally, is negated - contradicted by the facts of the matter.

While it is initially amusing to see you parade your unique mix of bombast, pomposity and ignorance, it quickly becomes tedious. So, further discussion with you on this point is a waste of time unless you change your position and accept the facts as agreed by all the interested parties, and the implications of those facts. When you have learnt and fully understood what 'consenting to a judgement' means in law please feel free to respond.



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/10/2017 5:05:04 PM >


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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 7:30:45 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

It seems to me far more reasonable and likely that a confluence of social economic and political factors pre-dispose their victims towards extremist ideologies - extreme situations create a fertile breeding ground for extremist solutions. The ideology provides a post-facto rationalisation of both the extreme situation and the extreme solution (terrorism).


Really, Tweak ... I'm inclined almost to say 'forget it'. I've noticed that on these boards people do not generally *do* 'social, economic and political factors' that predispose people towards extremist ideologies. What you'll get is psychological hypothesising (generally of the cod sort) - and that will generally be that.
In this example, Peon fails to understand that adherence to extremist ideology is an artefact of individual human psychology, not a consequence of being poor. Or being part of a totalitarian theocracy. Or due to political leanings.

The kind of double-think in which apologists for Islamic aggression - such as Peon and Twink - engage in is also an aspect of human psychology. They're so inculcated with socialist nonsense, that they think everyone who's not part of a Western democracy is a victim. But the psychological reason why this attracts them is their failure to make peace with their own inherent mediocrity. They hate the idea that life is a competition and secretly yearn for some superior force to adjudicate everyone's lives and "make it fair". But of course, this force can't be any kind of Christian God, because they hate Christianity as well.

Consequently, they believe the fundamental purpose of government is to make everyone's lives the same - with nobody doing better or worse than anyone else. Essentially they believe a socialist Utopia is possible and their entire ideological paradigm is founded upon that idiotic delusion.

quote:

Or, at least, that's the case when examining the motives of the average home-grown right wing terrorist, like Dylann Roof.
Ah, Peon makes a classic mistake. Dylann Roof is not a terrorist. His motives weren't political. He's a white supremacist who shot the kind of people he'd grown to hate. Even the Washington Post - a pretty liberal organ - agrees.

quote:

When it comes to Islamic terrorism though, why, you don't even need cod-psychology. You just need a copy of the Koran - for that alone describes *everything* that any given Muslim's mind *is*. The mind of a starving Muslim whose wife and children have just been blasted by a bomb from a Syrian jet will be *exactly the same* as the mind of the chubby little Muslim guy who runs the local corner shop in a Suffolk village.
It's fascinating to watch Peon's racist condescension in action. He doesn't even realise he's doing it. He can't even conceive of his local Islamic newsagent as a terrorist, because - deep down - Peon doesn't acknowledge him as a full human being who possesses that kind of agency. In Peon's mind, his newsagent is a stereotype whose range of action is defined by the limits of Peon's imagination. If Peon can't imagine him doing it, then his newsagent is incapable of action. As far as Peon's concerned, these short brown people are just cute cuddly archetypes with no will of their own.

Honestly, it's both ironic and repulsive.

quote:

You know the most pisspoor, dismal thing of all, for me? It's when some pompous windbag who has a hang up about his/her lack of education, tries to trash the knowledge that various people have picked up in the social sciences as 'unscientific'. Then, they proceed to replace it with the most wildly anti-scientific hogwash there could be. I mean, I've clocked that you're a fan of Herr Feyerabend and no doubt have a certain sympathy for his epistemological anarchy - as do I. But that doesn't mean that the undereducated flatulence of every hyper-egotistical plonker who rolls into the room with his megaphone is absolutely to be treated as of equal value to the knowledge people have actually been trained in.
One of the realities of communication is that this kind of diatribe tends to better illuminate the person saying it than it does the object of their vitriol. There's a bit to unpack here.

There are, of course, multiple social sciences such as political science, economics, anthropology, linguistics and so on. To be considered a science, however, the use of the scientific method - specifically observation and experiment, must be employed.

It's notable therefore that "gender studies" is not a science and neither is the pseudo-science from which it draws much of its theoretical idiocy: psychiatry. While psychology is a science, psychiatry is not. Therefore, it's important to distinguish between sciences which actually employ scientific method and pseudo-sciences which do not.

What's immediately apparent is Peon's ego-satisfying belief that his time spent in the priesthood of academe should impart his words with more authority than those of others. This is, of course, utter nonsense and tends to imply he's not working class and has been spoon-fed from an early age. Never having had to go out and actually work for anything, he errantly believes that his rather undisciplined cruising through an academic experience of little achievement somehow qualifies him as an authority.

There's even a fallacy for those people who try and argue from this point of view. It's called "appeal to authority".

What he fails to mention is that for all his posturing his actual ability to make a cogent point and defend a line of argument is incredibly poor. His appeal to knowledge is a defensive move based upon the uncomfortable realisation that he can't argue his way out of a paper bag. It also tends to reveal the stratification of his social origins. England's class-based society still lingers in some quarters and no doubt Peon fundamentally believes that he qualifies as one of those "betters" who the common people should tip their hats too. My mockery of his incompetence no doubt strikes deep at his delusion of self-entitlement, which is why he's so bitter at being bested.

The irony of course, is that this view of himself is at odds with his view of socialism as the cure to society's ills. These two beliefs are so far apart, that I'm surprised the cognitive dissonance doesn't inspire him to beat himself up. I sincerely hope he doesn't engage in self-harm or suffer from bulimia. That's a frightening pair of symptoms.

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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 7:33:16 PM   
Musicmystery


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That's an impressive example of straw man and persuasive explanation you've constructed, speaking of naming logical fallacies -- and irony.

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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 7:36:12 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's an impressive example of straw man and persuasive explanation you've constructed, speaking of naming logical fallacies -- and irony.
You don't understand what a straw man is. I'd say try again, but .... it's probably a waste of time.


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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 7:36:59 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Perhaps.... but the battle lines were divided by religion.

Butch


A religion that literally preaches nonviolence. A religion whose followers violate their scriptural teachings if they commit violence, as opposed to Muslims who are the exact opposite

If Muslims do not commit violence they are violating their scriptural teachings



"Thou shall not kill."

Seems very clear. No caveats, exceptions, special circumstances.

Yet Christian nations violate it continually. Gun-owners make it clear trespassers will be killed.

"Turn the other cheek."
"Love your enemy as your self."

Sounds like a violent group of extremists ignoring spiritual teachings to pursue their own agenda.

So much for the influence of the contents of Scripture.

Yes, which is why Christian is a PEACEFUL religion, since the followers has to IGNORE the teachings to commit violence.

Unlike Muslims who need to OBEY their teachings to commit violence.

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RE: Penn Jillette on Islam - 5/10/2017 8:01:26 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's an impressive example of straw man and persuasive explanation you've constructed, speaking of naming logical fallacies -- and irony.
You don't understand what a straw man is. I'd say try again, but .... it's probably a waste of time.


Ah yes. Horse laugh fallacy.

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