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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 9:51:16 AM

tamaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yarashii1

You are right. Hindsight makes everything clearer. In real time, she saw no weapon. She was probably justifiably scared. Being scared is understandable but it is not justification for shooting someone. She may have suspected a weapon or a bomb but suspicion does not justify lethal action. You don't have to trust me on this. NONE of the other officers there were so terrified. They were in the exact same situation she was.

I could recount the series of events to prove just how out of line her reaction was but if we are going to disregard facts because they are "hindsight" we are still led back to the simple result. She used lethal force when it was not necessary. Fear is not justification. If you cannot judge them on hindsight, how can you judge them? Real time, a professional shot an unarmed civilian. The professional obviously made an understandable mistake. The profession was not held to a standard that most amateurs would be held to. Real-time there was NO immediate threat of serious harm to anyone. Lethal force was not justified. If we, as Americans, now feel that lethal force is justifiable for misdemeanors, I will support that. I am a law and order person. If police can make these mistakes real-time and not be held accountable regardless of hindsight proof, we must admit that we live in a police state. If you, however, believe in law and order, you have to agree that those same laws must apply to those who enforce the law.

Cops do not and cannot play by the same rules as the rest of us.
For example non officers are not expected to put themselves in harms way.

Shelby could have taken cover behind Crutcher's vehicle. Officers are not expected to put themselves in harm's way as you allege, if there are alternatives. And there were alternatives. But she panicked, clearly.

Ok vincent. Even if she panicked... what does that have to do with the fact that the guy was black?

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 10:13:36 AM

InfoMan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

If he was high on pcp the tazer would.t affect him.
For someone who pretends to know so much about these things I am amazed you didn't know that.
Don't forget the coroner said he was high on PCP and you have already (in the op) said he was high.

No, she said through her lawyer that Crutcher was high on PCP. That was her judgment. He showed no weapon. The window to his car was closed. Shelby panicked and took away the life of a man who was no threat to anyone. That is simply not justifiable. It took the jury nine hours to convince themselves otherwise with a tape of the event at their disposal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TthfvZzN40U
Man high on PCP is continually tasered and still manages to beat a female officer half to death.
While being Tazered.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2015/09/08/shock-video-man-high-on-pcp-tasered-twice-hit-with-a-baton-and-pepper-sprayed-and-police-say-it-had-no-effect/
A man high on PCP who continues to act belligerently and cohesively despite being Tasered and Pepper Sprayed multiple times.

PCP is a powerful drug.
Simply suspecting it in an individual is technically acceptable grounds for an escalation of the use of force, as it is medically proven that those on PCP are unpredictable, very powerful, highly violent, and capable of resisting traditional non-lethal devices - making them a viable threat to those around them. Yeah he may of not had a weapon... but if you locked yourself in a room with an unrestrained person high on PCP... see how long he remains as 'no threat'.

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 10:17:54 AM

InfoMan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Shelby could have taken cover behind Crutcher's vehicle. Officers are not expected to put themselves in harm's way as you allege, if there are alternatives. And there were alternatives. But she panicked, clearly.

Yes, place yourself behind the large 1 ton motor vehicle which kills more Americans each year then fire arms while a belligerent and erratically behaving individual climbs into the driver seat. Nothing could potentially go wrong with that situation right?

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 10:25:35 AM

InfoMan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Cops do not and cannot play by the same rules as the rest of us.
For example non officers are not expected to put themselves in harms way.

It is a lot more then that too - as Cops are expected to safeguard the Public.

not only do we ask them to stand in harms way - we ask them to stand in front of the innocent and protect them from harm.

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 10:34:36 AM

igor2003

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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

If he was high on pcp the tazer would.t affect him.
For someone who pretends to know so much about these things I am amazed you didn't know that.
Don't forget the coroner said he was high on PCP and you have already (in the op) said he was high.

No, she said through her lawyer that Crutcher was high on PCP. That was her judgment. He showed no weapon. The window to his car was closed. Shelby panicked and took away the life of a man who was no threat to anyone. That is simply not justifiable. It took the jury nine hours to convince themselves otherwise with a tape of the event at their disposal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TthfvZzN40U
Man high on PCP is continually tasered and still manages to beat a female officer half to death.
While being Tazered.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2015/09/08/shock-video-man-high-on-pcp-tasered-twice-hit-with-a-baton-and-pepper-sprayed-and-police-say-it-had-no-effect/
A man high on PCP who continues to act belligerently and cohesively despite being Tasered and Pepper Sprayed multiple times.

PCP is a powerful drug.
Simply suspecting it in an individual is technically acceptable grounds for an escalation of the use of force, as it is medically proven that those on PCP are unpredictable, very powerful, highly violent, and capable of resisting traditional non-lethal devices - making them a viable threat to those around them. Yeah he may of not had a weapon... but if you locked yourself in a room with an unrestrained person high on PCP... see how long he remains as 'no threat'.

Sometimes, a person on PCP may not be effectively stopped with a taser. Can you show that this is ALWAYS the case?

Here are the numbers as I see it (so yes, it just makes it my opinion). There were four cops lined up against one "bad dude". If one of those four cops had deployed a taser, and it didn't work, then there would have still been three cops with standard firearms as backup. I know this thread is about one cop in particular. But if the group had used different tactics, maybe she would not have panicked, and the "bad dude' would still be alive.

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 11:20:47 AM

tamaka

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InfoMan wrote this above re: someone on PCP:

unpredictable, very powerful, highly violent, and capable of resisting traditional non-lethal devices

It made me wonder. What if you had a set of criteria similar to those characteristic listed for someone on PCP.

What if you randomly sampled a group of white men and a group of black men. And you tested everyone under the same types of conditons (ie. Different types of stressful situations)
And you measure the results on some type of scale.

I wonder how black vs. white would compare? Are black men more prone to irradic behavior, for example. Are white men more likely to obey directions? Do blacks try to get away more? Or do whites? Stuff like that. It would be interesting to see if there were any correlations between race and reactions/behaviors.

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 11:27:11 AM

InfoMan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
Sometimes, a person on PCP may not be effectively stopped with a taser. Can you show that this is ALWAYS the case?

Here are the numbers as I see it (so yes, it just makes it my opinion). There were four cops lined up against one "bad dude". If one of those four cops had deployed a taser, and it didn't work, then there would have still been three cops with standard firearms as backup. I know this thread is about one cop in particular. But if the group had used different tactics, maybe she would not have panicked, and the "bad dude' would still be alive.

Yes, There is a procedure which you follow which dictates the escalation of force to be used in a given situation. She kinda skipped over the steps of 'Non-Lethal Force' and went directly to 'Lethal Force'. And while I will admit that she didn't exactly allow for non-lethal options to be employed, I will argue that she didn't jump to that conclusion rashly or unreasonably - which is the conditions required for her to be convicted with Manslaughter. T

Fired from the police? Yeah... she didn't follow proper procedure.
Lynched for maliciously or intentionally targeting a minority? Not at all.

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 11:28:48 AM

Edwird

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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I did check the case.
I am not convinced that she is innocent.
However he disobeyed directions and tried to get something out of his vehical.
We don't know what he was after, but we do know he was on PCP so he was more dangerous than a man with a gun.
This may well have created a legitimate reasonable doubt.

Oh yeah, there are huge questions here... like why she didn't wait for some one to tazer the guy?

but ultimately there is enough there to imply that she and the other officers where in imminent danger, which does make the shooting justified.

There was?

To a hyper-emotional 12 year old girl, maybe.

Emotionally, you are not a grown man and never will be, so just STFU on the matter.

But apparently the required psychological profile to enter the police academy for the last 20 years or so is that they completely freak out at the slightest sensory input and start firing.

The rules have been re-written to accommodate the lower standards for street execution, and the hiring criteria to that end adjusted thuswise.

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 11:41:57 AM

tamaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I did check the case.
I am not convinced that she is innocent.
However he disobeyed directions and tried to get something out of his vehical.
We don't know what he was after, but we do know he was on PCP so he was more dangerous than a man with a gun.
This may well have created a legitimate reasonable doubt.

Oh yeah, there are huge questions here... like why she didn't wait for some one to tazer the guy?

but ultimately there is enough there to imply that she and the other officers where in imminent danger, which does make the shooting justified.

There was?

To a hyper-emotional 12 year old girl, maybe.

Emotionally, you are not a grown man and never will be, so just STFU on the matter.

But apparently the required psychological profile to enter the police academy for the last 20 years or so is that they completely freak out at the slightest sensory input and start firing.

The rules have been re-written to accommodate the lower standards for street execution, and the hiring criteria to that end adjusted thuswise.

I wonder why we might be doing that.

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 12:04:36 PM

Chaska

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Here is one study google will provide more. https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/jp-rushton-race-evolution-behavior-unabridged-1997-edition.pdf

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 12:26:29 PM

InfoMan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
Emotionally, you are not a grown man and never will be, so just STFU on the matter.

Says the person that has to reduce to insults rather then attempting to come up with a logical or reasonable counter point.

SUV was on - that's a 2 ton vehicle, with 200 hp at the wheels and 300 ft/lbs of torque. Him getting into that vehicle in his condition is not a threat?
The suspicious behavior? the potential that the car might explode? the non-compliance of a person that might be high on PCP? None of those are threats?

how about instead of simply saying 'there is no threat' you try and explain HOW.

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 12:35:09 PM

Chaska

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Evaluating Police Psychology: Who Passes the Test?
Wake Up America: The Rise of the Police State
Police state USA

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 12:38:02 PM

BoscoX

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Educational Video: Chris Rock - How not to get your ass kicked by the police! - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 12:52:13 PM

Chaska

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How To Talk to a Police Officer during a Traffic Stop

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 1:15:55 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
Emotionally, you are not a grown man and never will be, so just STFU on the matter.

Says the person that has to reduce to insults rather then attempting to come up with a logical or reasonable counter point.

SUV was on - that's a 2 ton vehicle, with 200 hp at the wheels and 300 ft/lbs of torque. Him getting into that vehicle in his condition is not a threat?
The suspicious behavior? the potential that the car might explode? the non-compliance of a person that might be high on PCP? None of those are threats?

how about instead of simply saying 'there is no threat' you try and explain HOW.

Theree is the implication that she was wrong because the other officers didn't see him as being high, to bad the corenor found PCP in his system which means that her assessment of the situation was the best one there.

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 2:27:36 PM

Edwird

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Apparently you have firsthand experience as to the effects of PCP.

But in fact every post of yours conveys that you unquestionably display effects of serious delusions as from congenital condition.

You shouldn't argue so vociferously that you should be shot on site.

It doesn't matter whether under influence of drugs or not, wacko is wacko.

You really need to keep that in mind, seriously.

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 2:51:17 PM

Edwird

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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
Emotionally, you are not a grown man and never will be, so just STFU on the matter.

Says the person that has to reduce to insults rather then attempting to come up with a logical or reasonable counter point.

Him getting into that vehicle in his condition is not a threat?

He didn't get in the vehicle after the police ordered him out and he complied. Next . . .

quote:

The suspicious behavior?

My local police considered that my walking home from the grocery store was "suspicious behavior," I got held up with out arrest for 20 minutes for that, and I'm a white guy.

Next . . .

quote:

the potential that the car might explode?

From what, exactly?

quote:

the non-compliance of a person that might be high on PCP? None of those are threats?

The police I've come across just walking in my own neighborhood makes me think they are all on PCP. So, what, I'm supposed to shoot them now?

quote:

how about instead of simply saying 'there is no threat' you try and explain HOW.

Ah, no, actually.

It's up to you to explain how the vehicle in question was likely to explode.

I'm all about the entertainment, here.

You are doing a fabulous job. Chin up and all that.

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 5:26:01 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
Emotionally, you are not a grown man and never will be, so just STFU on the matter.

Says the person that has to reduce to insults rather then attempting to come up with a logical or reasonable counter point.

SUV was on - that's a 2 ton vehicle, with 200 hp at the wheels and 300 ft/lbs of torque. Him getting into that vehicle in his condition is not a threat?
The suspicious behavior? the potential that the car might explode? the non-compliance of a person that might be high on PCP? None of those are threats?

how about instead of simply saying 'there is no threat' you try and explain HOW.

Theree is the implication that she was wrong because the other officers didn't see him as being high, to bad the corenor found PCP in his system which means that her assessment of the situation was the best one there.

The PCP in his system does not automatically make him dangerous. Where is that written? It simply makes his behavior irrational. Being irrational is not an invitation for blue cap assassination in America. If Shelby was taught how to recognize PCP or any other erratic behavior I would bet she was given protocol on how to deal with it. I doubt she was following that protocol. She lost her composure and needlessly took the life of another human being. Unless of course it is your position that being under the influence of a drug, acting weird from alcohol, or being mentally deranged, all without a weapon, is just cause and license to be shot dead in the street like a rabid dog. Is that your position, mister? Hey???

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 5:33:04 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
Emotionally, you are not a grown man and never will be, so just STFU on the matter.

Says the person that has to reduce to insults rather then attempting to come up with a logical or reasonable counter point.

SUV was on - that's a 2 ton vehicle, with 200 hp at the wheels and 300 ft/lbs of torque. Him getting into that vehicle in his condition is not a threat?
The suspicious behavior? the potential that the car might explode? the non-compliance of a person that might be high on PCP? None of those are threats?

how about instead of simply saying 'there is no threat' you try and explain HOW.

No evidence he was getting into the vehicle. If he did, then there might be justification for shooting. If he could get the car started and drive straight. Shit, he couldn't even walk straight.

And exploding car? Really? Where did that come from? From what part of your disoriented imagination? You lost a lot of credibility with that overreach.

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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/20/2017 5:34:51 PM

InfoMan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

He didn't get in the vehicle after the police ordered him out and he complied. Next . . .

WRONG.

He was not in the vehicle when the police arrived.
he was wandering aimlessly outside the vehicle when police arrived.

It is only when police arrived did he approche the vehicle and attempt to enter it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdwirdMy local police considered that my walking home from the grocery store was "suspicious behavior," I got held up with out arrest for 20 minutes for that, and I'm a white guy.

Next . . .

An Abandoned vehicle parked in the middle of the road obstructing both lanes and aimlessly wandering around isn't suspicious behavior to you?

Okay - how about he puts his hands up with out being prompted to do so?
How about when Instructed to stop moving, he ignores it and then slowly walks 20 Feet away from police to the Driver Side of a motor vehicle that is idling?

None of that is suspicious to you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

quote:

the potential that the car might explode?

From what, exactly?

Police where dispatched to the Car because initial 9-1-1 call stated that there was an abandoned car on the road with a man running away saying that the "Car is going to blow up!"

Source:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/20/us/oklahoma-tulsa-police-shooting/

Although unconfirmed - the Police must treat this threat as real until it is confirmed otherwise, and are provided the warning 'Potential explosive threat'

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

quote:

the non-compliance of a person that might be high on PCP? None of those are threats?

The police I've come across just walking in my own neighborhood makes me think they are all on PCP. So, what, I'm supposed to shoot them now?

Oh, and what are the symptoms they're displaying?
behavior? actions? speech pattern?
Where did you receive your training to recognize those symptoms?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

quote:

how about instead of simply saying 'there is no threat' you try and explain HOW.

Ah, no, actually.

It's up to you to explain how the vehicle in question was likely to explode.

I'm all about the entertainment, here.

You are doing a fabulous job. Chin up and all that.

then you are wrong and you just admitted your wrong... you said something ignorant and then outright refused to back it up with even basic reasoning.
Feel free to no longer participate in the conversation because you no longer have a valid platform to even speak from.

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