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RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 7:05:39 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
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I suspected something like this was going to show up.

the conclusion of "implicit racism" that Vincent wants to cling to can only be suggested if experimental groups are used who have no knowledge of the exceptionally high crime rates of blacks. otherwise, its not "racism" per se, its quite possibly the police recognizing a marker, in this case skin color, of a person more likely to be a criminal.

something I mentioned earlier---blm would do well to address the problems of thugs in their midst. perhaps then the "unidentified object" is more likely to be recognized as a cell phone as opposed to a gun.

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 5/21/2017 7:07:18 AM >

(in reply to tamaka)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 7:44:47 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan
Simply suspecting it [PCP] in an individual is technically acceptable grounds for an escalation of the use of force,


So now, mere 'suspicion' of something is grounds for use of lethal response.

The fact that it's in the nature of the job for police to suspect everything to begin with . . .

You've explained yourself quite well, here.

And yet we waste all this money on the courts and legal system.






that is correct, something I have been ranting about over the last several years (among other rights destroyed by the courts).

Probable Cause and Due Process and the 4th
have been reduced to probable suspicion, fuck you we do what we want, hence a guy in iowa gets picked up for a loud muffler, the cop looks into the vehicle, invents a bullshit reason to search the vehicle, finds 420 and hauls the guy in.

The guy proves to the court that there is nothing wrong with his muffler, due process provides that the cop should had no bonafide reason to stop the man, and the evidence should have been thrown out because it was illegally obtained.

Nope the iowa supreme court determined that probable suspicion warranted the search anyway, and due process is the 'privilege' of a court trial, I believe this shit all started with the terry v ohio case.

I have been ranting about several legal procedures that serve to prejudice people in favr of the state road (revenue) nazis which like a cancer is growing and winding its way through civil criminal family you name the law generally.

Due process is the state way, probable cause is history, and they are working on trial by jury which is almost nonexistant in small claims now days in some jurisdictions.

Everything they told us to fear about russia as children is here today.

Yesterdays tinfoil conspiracy theory is today's reality!






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 5/21/2017 8:05:21 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 8:00:35 AM   
Edwird


Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan
Simply suspecting it [PCP] in an individual is technically acceptable grounds for an escalation of the use of force,


So now, mere 'suspicion' of something is grounds for use of lethal response.

The fact that it's in the nature of the job for police to suspect everything to begin with . . .

You've explained yourself quite well, here.

And yet we waste all this money on the courts and legal system.


Yes - mere 'suspicion' of something which is very serious and dangerous is grounds for the escalation of the use of force, even up to the point of lethal force.

You see a man wearing this:

That could be a joke a bunch of drunk frat boys thought up late at night and thought was funny...
Or each of those cans could be filled with gunpowder, and those bottles filled with gasoline...


Okay, so your jpg above was from the police video of the incident in question, then?

It's amazing how much evidence you have in the matter that no one else does, not even the police.

quote:

By simply suspecting that the object worn by the subject may be an explosive device Requires certain precautions to be taken.


What such object was being worn by by the guy who was executed in this instance? Just asking.

quote:

It has been conclusively proven that you not only do not have the moral high ground, but that you have no validity in your words any ways.


"Proven" is an adjective, "proved" is the simple past tense you're looking for, here. Sorry for the condescension. While on the subject; I've never presented myself as being anything other than a minimally-above-average guy (except for matters of music), but I am tired of those who make every effort to lower themselves and then take pride in it by way of braying it to all the world. People who choose not to live in your gutter are not 'condescending,' news to you as that may be.

quote:

No one is going to ever take you seriously if you continue to argue this way.


Right. So everyone is going to take you seriously for posting a jpg of a bomb vest that this victim of a street execution never wore, by any account, to make your case. 'Planting evidence,' as it were. One can see the simpatico on display, here.

You've presented the case quite well enough, though not exactly as you imagined, perhaps.


< Message edited by Edwird -- 5/21/2017 8:06:36 AM >

(in reply to InfoMan)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 9:21:16 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

If you don't know the conditions of the case, why are you even trying to argue it?
Why do you think police where there in the first place?
Why was a police helicopter Tasked to observe?
why where several squad cars recalled and redirected to respond?
Why did they all converge there with-in minutes of one another?


What you think they spend all that resource on a traffic stop or something?

Maybe learn the case before you open your mouth.


but to directly reply to your ignorance
i guess him just walking 30 feet while at gun point from a police to the driver side door of the SUV.... that is not expressed intent for entering a vehicle?
do you walk to the passenger side of your car to enter it?

and i should mention -
He walked in a straight line to from the police cruiser to the SUV.
The car was On and idling on the road.

do you enjoy being wrong about... everything?


The police were there because someone phoned in a 911 report of a vehicle blocking the road and a man walking about erratically. Beyond that there are no answers to your purely speculative and mostly off-point questions.

And I must say your frenzied reply and your ad hom attacks are the first I have seen of such behavior from you. I am quite surprised by your sudden loss of control. Do try to get yourself together and present some reasonable comments. You lost all credibility inventing the explosives issue and this rant is not at all helpful. . . . . maybe a good night's sleep will help???

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to InfoMan)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 9:22:01 AM   
InfoMan


Posts: 471
Joined: 2/20/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan
Simply suspecting it [PCP] in an individual is technically acceptable grounds for an escalation of the use of force,


So now, mere 'suspicion' of something is grounds for use of lethal response.

The fact that it's in the nature of the job for police to suspect everything to begin with . . .

You've explained yourself quite well, here.

And yet we waste all this money on the courts and legal system.


Yes - mere 'suspicion' of something which is very serious and dangerous is grounds for the escalation of the use of force, even up to the point of lethal force.

You see a man wearing this:
(image)
That could be a joke a bunch of drunk frat boys thought up late at night and thought was funny...
Or each of those cans could be filled with gunpowder, and those bottles filled with gasoline...


Okay, so your jpg above was from the police video of the incident in question, then?


And this is proof that you cannot read.

If you actually read the post it is not speaking specifically of the situation at hand it is pointing out that mere 'suspicion' of something can warrant the usage of deadly force.

It directly counters your statement providing a direct reference of a questionable object that cannot be conclusively proven to be real or fake at face value....

But rather then acknowledging that your ignorant statement in how 'Suspicion' is reasonable grounds for the escalation of force, You instead try and twist it around in an ignorant attempt to dismiss the statement which conclusively has proven you wrong.

You cannot counter the Fact that mere suspicious behavior is grounds for the use of lethal force.
You have been proven Wrong.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

By simply suspecting that the object worn by the subject may be an explosive device Requires certain precautions to be taken.


What such object was being worn by by the guy who was executed in this instance? Just asking.


The original 911 call warned that there was a person running away from an abandoned vehicle stating: "It is going to blow up!"

Given that most motor vehicles can produce a sizable explosion through an upset of their normal functions, The car the suspect was trying to get into was a potential bomb based on the initial information provided to police until proven otherwise. Like it or not that is just the facts.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

It has been conclusively proven that you not only do not have the moral high ground, but that you have no validity in your words any ways.


"Proven" is an adjective, "proved" is the simple past tense you're looking for, here. Sorry for the condescension. While on the subject; I've never presented myself as being anything other than a minimally-above-average guy (except for matters of music), but I am tired of those who make every effort to lower themselves and then take pride in it by way of braying it to all the world. People who choose not to live in your gutter are not 'condescending,' news to you as that may be.


So now rather then engaging with fact, you are going to argue grammar?

Okay well:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prove
The past participle proven, originally the past participle of preve, a Middle English variant of prove that survived in Scotland, has gradually worked its way into standard English over the past three and a half centuries. It seems to have first become established in legal use and to have come only slowly into literary use. Tennyson was one of its earliest frequent users, probably for metrical reasons. It was disapproved by 19th century grammarians, one of whom included it in a list of “words that are not words.” Surveys made some 50 or 60 years ago indicated that proved was about four times as frequent as proven. But our evidence from the last 30 or 35 years shows this no longer to be the case. As a past participle proven is now about as frequent as proved in all contexts. As an attributive adjective ⟨proved or proven gas reserves⟩ proven is much more common than proved.

Given that Proven is the more common used term in current vernacular and across more contexts (legal, Literary, and as an attributive adjective) - you are actually incorrect.


Also by using the statement:
People who choose not to live in your gutter are not 'condescending,'
while presenting yourself as an average/above average normal human is the literal definition of condescension.

just because you attempt to present it passive aggressively rather then directly does not make it any less condescending.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird
quote:

No one is going to ever take you seriously if you continue to argue this way.


Right. So everyone is going to take you seriously for posting a jpg of a bomb vest that this victim of a street execution never wore, by any account, to make your case. 'Planting evidence,' as it were. One can see the simpatico on display, here.

You've presented the case quite well enough, though not exactly as you imagined, perhaps.


Well, if the person is incompetent enough to believe that was the correlation i was trying to make, then i seriously do not care if they take me seriously or not, as it would be no different then concerning myself over if an insect took me seriously or not...

(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 9:36:50 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Actually had it been a 20 yr old white girl, the cop probably wouldn't have shot her at all, so no there wouldn't have been outrage or even press coverage.


Wow! That really shines a bright light on the central point of this issue. Well done. Thank you.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 9:50:10 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

The original 911 call warned that there was a person running away from an abandoned vehicle stating: "It is going to blow up!"


That may be so but you should note that in the report linked in the OP we learn that Officer Shelby was responding to an unrelated call when she stopped at the Crutcher scene. We also learn that Crutcher walked calmly back toward his car.

So, Shelby was out of place and Mr. Crutcher showed no threatening behavior. We are all in for a bad time in America if "walking calmly toward your car" is a standard for the use of deadly force by our police who are dedicated to serve and protect.

A fanciful but seriously dangerous addition to the civic conversation by you.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to InfoMan)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 9:57:01 AM   
Edwird


Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
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quote:

Well, if the person is incompetent enough to believe that was the correlation i was trying to make,


You used that bomb vest jpg to make your case re 'suspicion,' but you weren't to any effort as correlation, do we have this right?

You 'have proven' that just one instance of someone who has worn a bomb vest in presence of a police officer on any occasion thus allows all police thereafter the right of street execution when the citizen 'under suspicion' of any and every other thing being suspected, and nothing more.

I found myself being 'under suspicion' for walking two and 1/2 blocks from the grocery store to my house with brand labeled plastic grocery bags.

If 'suspicion' alone is cause for street execution, as you 'are proven' to so vociferously argue for, then why am I still here?

And again, why the waste of money for the courts and the legal system (that arcane anachronism), when one out of four policemen can just adjudicate the matter and dispense judgement, verdict, and sentence, on the spot?

So now you are proclaiming that 'it has been proven that all police officers are legal and constitutional scholars.''

Hence the short step from bomb vests to store-labelled grocery store bags as 'grounds for suspicion.' My, how civilization has progressed.

You can't understand your own words well enough to vomit them out to the public as you do. Keep to your porcelain queen and leave the rest of us out of it, if you would.

Thanks.



< Message edited by Edwird -- 5/21/2017 10:17:59 AM >

(in reply to InfoMan)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 10:09:13 AM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
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here and here

http://www.collarchat.com/m_5034475/tm.htm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_5034481/tm.htm

Anyway why are some of you lot talking about 911 - I thought "America" trained the pilots or was it the Saudis

(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 10:12:19 AM   
InfoMan


Posts: 471
Joined: 2/20/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

The original 911 call warned that there was a person running away from an abandoned vehicle stating: "It is going to blow up!"


That may be so but you should note that in the report linked in the OP we learn that Officer Shelby was responding to an unrelated call when she stopped at the Crutcher scene. We also learn that Crutcher walked calmly back toward his car.

So, Shelby was out of place and Mr. Crutcher showed no threatening behavior. We are all in for a bad time in America if "walking calmly toward your car" is a standard for the use of deadly force by our police who are dedicated to serve and protect.

A fanciful but seriously dangerous addition to the civic conversation by you.



You still don't know the conditions of the case....
At this point you are outright refusing to acknowledge facts because facts don't fit in with your agenda.

So what's the point of even continuing?

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 10:22:58 AM   
InfoMan


Posts: 471
Joined: 2/20/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

quote:

Well, if the person is incompetent enough to believe that was the correlation i was trying to make,


You used that bomb vest jpg to make your case re 'suspicion,' but you weren't to any effort as correlation, do we have this right?

You 'have proven' that just one instance of someone who has worn a bomb vest in presence of a police officer on any occasion thus allows all police thereafter the right of street execution when the citizen 'under suspicion' of any and every other thing being suspected, and nothing more.

I found myself being 'under suspicion' for walking two and 1/2 blocks from the grocery store to my house with brand labeled plastic grocery bags.

If 'suspicion' alone is cause for street execution, as you 'are proven' to so vociferously argue for, then why am I still here?

And again, why the waste of money for the courts and the legal system (that arcane anachronism), when one out of four policemen can just adjudicate the matter and dispense judgement, verdict, and sentence, on the spot?

So now you are proclaiming that 'it has been proven that all police officers are legal and constitutional scholars.'

You can't understand your own words well enough to vomit them out to the public as you do. Keep to your porcelain queen and leave the rest of us out of it.




And now you're trying to simplify it down to an exaggerated binary comparison As if that was the stance i held in the first place rather then accepting fact that you have been proven wrong... In this 'suspicion' is now a yes/no option in killing some one - ignoring that there are several grades of suspicions and several compounding factors to that suspicion as well as several levels of acceptable response that coincides with certain levels of suspicious behavior.

You yourself have admitted that you don't understand the case at all and are simply arguing because the man shot was black.

So... why are you even here talking?

you have nothing to say.

(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 10:31:48 AM   
Edwird


Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
Status: offline
Vincent just pointed out the actual facts, and your response is that he is the one ignoring facts.

Just like bozoX, it is your own disdain of fact that you then comedically attempt to project upon others.

What a loser.

(in reply to InfoMan)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 10:44:50 AM   
Edwird


Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan
And now you're trying to simplify it down to an exaggerated binary comparison As if that was the stance i held in the first place rather then accepting fact that you have been proven wrong...


'Rather than', not 'rather then.' Oh my, there I go again being 'condescending.'

quote:

You yourself have admitted that you don't understand the case at all


When did I say that?

quote:

and are simply arguing because the man shot was black.


You are welcome to provide a quote to that effect. But of course you can't.

quote:

So... why are you even here talking?


It's fun bouncing a silly toy like you all over the room.

Any more stupid questions?



(in reply to InfoMan)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 11:00:08 AM   
InfoMan


Posts: 471
Joined: 2/20/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

Vincent just pointed out the actual facts, and your response is that he is the one ignoring facts.

Just like bozoX, it is your own disdain of fact that you then comedically attempt to project upon others.

What a loser.


The actual facts of the case is that she was recalled from a dispatch to respond to the abandoned vehicle which 911 calls warned of a potential explosive threat of a suspiciously abandoned vehicle in the middle of the road.

This is why a Police Helicopter was Tasked for observation.

What he recounted and attempted to present was that she basically drove by this situation on her way to another call, that the suspect waved her down because of car troubles, and it was her malicious intent which caused her to gun him down.

He even incorrectly accounts for his behavior:

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
We are all in for a bad time in America if "walking calmly toward your car" is a standard for the use of deadly force by our police who are dedicated to serve and protect.


He was being held at gun point and commanded to Stop and he Refused to do so.
Despite constant command to stop moving, he walked slowly some 30 feet over 20 seconds away from a police officer which was holding him at gun point to the driver side door of a vehicle idling on the road.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmIfTEZRBko

He is not pointing out facts, he is ignoring facts and pointing out his own perceptions.

You are doing the same.

(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 11:03:50 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

So then; only 33% of a death by gun is fault of the shooter, the rest is just target practice.

So then?? If you ever grow a second brain cell, it's going to wonder how you've even managed to put your pants on with the one you've got.

K.


(in reply to Edwird)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 11:15:20 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

I suspected something like this was going to show up.

the conclusion of "implicit racism" that Vincent wants to cling to can only be suggested if experimental groups are used who have no knowledge of the exceptionally high crime rates of blacks. otherwise, its not "racism" per se, its quite possibly the police recognizing a marker, in this case skin color, of a person more likely to be a criminal.

something I mentioned earlier---blm would do well to address the problems of thugs in their midst. perhaps then the "unidentified object" is more likely to be recognized as a cell phone as opposed to a gun.


I am not clinging to anything, simply answering a good question by tamaka.

Using experimental groups that have no knowledge of the crime rate in black neighborhoods? That's the purpose of using control groups in an experiment.
We cannot control for every possible factor. And what you are saying supports the point: we are prejudiced by our encounters and by the media to which we are exposed. It is difficult to deny the existence of implicit or subliminal prejudice.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 11:19:10 AM   
Edwird


Posts: 3558
Joined: 5/2/2016
Status: offline
The fact of the matter is that the guy, however screwed up he might have been at the time, had four guns pointed at him, and, however much screwed up he might or might not have been at the time, made no threatening move towards the police.

By her own account, the police officer killed the man not because he presented any real threat to anybody, but because he didn't respond to her own satisfaction to her own 'police order.'

She was a nut job who had no business even being in that position in the first place, as the other three policemen's otherwise assessment of of the situation attested to well enough.

(in reply to InfoMan)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 11:23:39 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

The actual facts of the case is that she was recalled from a dispatch to respond to the abandoned vehicle which 911 calls warned of a potential explosive threat of a suspiciously abandoned vehicle in the middle of the road.

That is not the case according to the linked article in the OP.

quote:

What he recounted and attempted to present was that she basically drove by this situation on her way to another call, that the suspect waved her down because of car troubles, and it was her malicious intent which caused her to gun him down.

A complete fabrication by you. No one other than you ever said the subject waved her down. Please stop inventing thngs that are not on the record.

She perceived correctly that the man was acting irrationally. Irrational behavior does not license deadly force.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to InfoMan)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 11:25:06 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

The original 911 call warned that there was a person running away from an abandoned vehicle stating: "It is going to blow up!"


That may be so but you should note that in the report linked in the OP we learn that Officer Shelby was responding to an unrelated call when she stopped at the Crutcher scene. We also learn that Crutcher walked calmly back toward his car.

So, Shelby was out of place and Mr. Crutcher showed no threatening behavior. We are all in for a bad time in America if "walking calmly toward your car" is a standard for the use of deadly force by our police who are dedicated to serve and protect.

A fanciful but seriously dangerous addition to the civic conversation by you.



At least thats the commonly understood propaganda, same as justice, same as land of the free, same as demobcracy



THE SUPREME COURT: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone

By LINDA GREENHOUSEJUNE 28, 2005
Continue reading the main story

WASHINGTON, June 27 - The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm, even a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: BLM NOT SO MUCH - 5/21/2017 11:27:02 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwird

So then; only 33% of a death by gun is fault of the shooter, the rest is just target practice.

So then?? If you ever grow a second brain cell, it's going to wonder how you've even managed to put your pants on with the one you've got.

K.



Sometimes, K, your comments and knowledge are admirable. At times like this they are utterly disappointing trash. I expect better of you.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 160
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