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WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/24/2017 8:20:54 PM   
vincentML


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I am skeptical and confused about who we are supporting in the Middle East. Your opinions on the ideas put forth in this article please. It is an opinion piece, not a news piece.

The lack of a coherent anti-terrorism strategy in Washington and by extension the West, as emergency services deal with the devastating aftermath of yet another terrorist atrocity in Europe – this time a suicide bomb attack at a concert in Manchester, England – has been thrown into sharp relief during President Trump’s tour of the Middle East.

Specifically, on what planet can Iran be credibly accused of funding and supporting terrorism while Saudi Arabia is considered a viable partner in the fight against terrorism? This is precisely the narrative we are being invited to embrace by President Trump in what counts as a retreat from reality into the realms of fantasy, undertaken in service not to security but commerce.

Indeed those still struggling to understand why countries such as the US, UK, and France consistently seek to legitimise a Saudi regime that is underpinned by the medieval religious doctrine of Wahhabism, which is near indistinguishable from the medieval religious extremism and fanaticism of Daesh and Nusra in Syria – those people need look no further than the economic relations each of those countries enjoy with Riyadh.

The announcement that Washington has just sealed a mammoth deal with its Saudi ally on arms sales – worth $110 billion immediately and $350 billion over 10 years – is all the incentive the US political and media establishment requires to look the other way when it comes to the public beheadings, crucifixions, eye gouging, and other cruel and barbaric punishments meted out in the Kingdom on a regular basis.

The sheer unreality of Saudi Arabia’s King Salman, as he stood shoulder to shoulder with President Trump during the latter’s state visit to the country recently, lamenting the chaos and carnage in Syria, which he described as having been “one of the most advanced countries” prior to a conflict that has wrought so much death and destruction, the sheer unreality of this is off the scale – and especially so considering the role the Saudis have played in providing material, financial, and ideological and religious support to groups engaged in the very carnage in Syria as has just been unleashed in Manchester.

Instead it is being driven by unalloyed hypocrisy, to the extent that when such carnage occurs in Syria, as it has unremittingly over the past 6 years, the perpetrators are still described in some quarters as rebels and freedom fighters, yet when it takes place in Manchester or Paris or Brussels, etc., they are depicted as terrorists. Neither is it credible to continue to demonize governments that are in the front line against this terrorist menace – i.e. Iran, Russia, Syria – while courting and genuflecting at the feet of governments that are exacerbating it – i.e. Saudi Arabia, previously mentioned, along with Qatar, Kuwait, and Turkey. Here, too, mention must be made of the brutal and ongoing injustice meted out to the Palestinians by an Israeli government that shares with the Saudis a doctrine of religious exceptionalism and supremacy, one that is inimical to peace or the security of its own people.

As the smoke clears, both literally and figuratively, from yet another terrorist atrocity, we are forced to consider how we arrived at this point. And when we do we cannot but understand the role of Western extremism in giving birth to and nourishing Salafi-jihadi extremism. Moreover, in the midst of the understandable and eminently justifiable grief we feel at events in Manchester, it behooves us not to forget the salient fact that Muslims have and continue to be the biggest victims of this terrorist menace, unleashed in the name of religious purity and sectarianism, and that it is Muslims who are also doing most to confront and fight it, whether in Syria, Iraq, Libya, or Afghanistan. It should not escape our rendering of the issue either that what each of those countries have in common is that they have all been victims of the Western extremism mentioned earlier.

It bears repeating: you cannot continue to invade, occupy, and subvert Muslim and Arab countries and not expect consequences. And when those consequences amount to the slaughter and maiming of your own citizens, the same tired and shallow platitudes we are ritually regaled with by politicians and leaders intent on bolstering their anti-terrorism and security credentials achieve little except induce nausea.
OPINION PIECE

I will admit I am persuaded by the last paragraph. I am disquieted by our sending more troops into Afghanistan to continue the longest war in our history. We are supplying arms to who-knows in Syria; we have troops in Iraq and Yemen. Troops are being sent abroad without announcement to the American people. It is madness. What are your thoughts on who and why we are siding with? Why are we even involved?

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/24/2017 8:31:05 PM   
respectmen


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I think the western world should stay out of the middle east and not try to solve other people's problems. Let them oppress each other and kill each other. Not our fault, not our problem.

The cause of all these ills is fucking islam. Islam is the stem cause of all these problems. It's up to them to give up their batshit crazy religion if they want ro live in peace.

We shouldn't allow them in the western world and we should never be their aid. We should have absolutely nothing to do with these stone age freaks. Just let them keep killing each other and live our happy and peaceful lives in our privileged country.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/24/2017 8:33:16 PM   
tamaka


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But.... oil.

(in reply to respectmen)
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/24/2017 8:50:59 PM   
BoscoX


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Wow - what drivel.

They don't slaughter little girls at pop concerts in Manchester, or kidnap girls in Nigeria, or whip gays in Indonesia because of George Bush

You have to be borderline insane to really believe that

You pretend that they are innocent little angels, until we made them mad

What stupidity, what garbage. What total ignorance of the history of Islam, of the teachings of Islam

Muslims in the form of the Ottoman Empire declared Jihad on Western powers during WW I. They were going to do to us what they have always done since the time of Mohammad, crucify, behead, or enslave every infidel they encountered as far into Europe and beyond as they could go

But they got their asses kicked instead, and got occupied

It is far better that we are in control than them, with their primitive cult practices and their Allah who demands that we either serve them as slaves or we die

_____________________________

Thought Criminal

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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/24/2017 8:59:29 PM   
Greta75


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US has always gone to bed with the enemy when there are mutual benefits to do so.

Saudi has money. Saudi has oil. So they gotta work on them.

As I always said, US ultimate goal is to save every drop of their own natural occuring fuel in their own land and dry up all the middle east fuel first.

Because what happens next is IF US became one of the rare countries that has abundance of fuel to spare.

They maintain super power.

(in reply to BoscoX)
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/24/2017 9:28:21 PM   
Aylee


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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I am skeptical and confused about who we are supporting in the Middle East. Your opinions on the ideas put forth in this article please. It is an opinion piece, not a news piece.

The lack of a coherent anti-terrorism strategy in Washington and by extension the West, as emergency services deal with the devastating aftermath of yet another terrorist atrocity in Europe – this time a suicide bomb attack at a concert in Manchester, England – has been thrown into sharp relief during President Trump’s tour of the Middle East.

Specifically, on what planet can Iran be credibly accused of funding and supporting terrorism while Saudi Arabia is considered a viable partner in the fight against terrorism? This is precisely the narrative we are being invited to embrace by President Trump in what counts as a retreat from reality into the realms of fantasy, undertaken in service not to security but commerce.

Indeed those still struggling to understand why countries such as the US, UK, and France consistently seek to legitimise a Saudi regime that is underpinned by the medieval religious doctrine of Wahhabism, which is near indistinguishable from the medieval religious extremism and fanaticism of Daesh and Nusra in Syria – those people need look no further than the economic relations each of those countries enjoy with Riyadh.

The announcement that Washington has just sealed a mammoth deal with its Saudi ally on arms sales – worth $110 billion immediately and $350 billion over 10 years – is all the incentive the US political and media establishment requires to look the other way when it comes to the public beheadings, crucifixions, eye gouging, and other cruel and barbaric punishments meted out in the Kingdom on a regular basis.

The sheer unreality of Saudi Arabia’s King Salman, as he stood shoulder to shoulder with President Trump during the latter’s state visit to the country recently, lamenting the chaos and carnage in Syria, which he described as having been “one of the most advanced countries” prior to a conflict that has wrought so much death and destruction, the sheer unreality of this is off the scale – and especially so considering the role the Saudis have played in providing material, financial, and ideological and religious support to groups engaged in the very carnage in Syria as has just been unleashed in Manchester.

Instead it is being driven by unalloyed hypocrisy, to the extent that when such carnage occurs in Syria, as it has unremittingly over the past 6 years, the perpetrators are still described in some quarters as rebels and freedom fighters, yet when it takes place in Manchester or Paris or Brussels, etc., they are depicted as terrorists. Neither is it credible to continue to demonize governments that are in the front line against this terrorist menace – i.e. Iran, Russia, Syria – while courting and genuflecting at the feet of governments that are exacerbating it – i.e. Saudi Arabia, previously mentioned, along with Qatar, Kuwait, and Turkey. Here, too, mention must be made of the brutal and ongoing injustice meted out to the Palestinians by an Israeli government that shares with the Saudis a doctrine of religious exceptionalism and supremacy, one that is inimical to peace or the security of its own people.

As the smoke clears, both literally and figuratively, from yet another terrorist atrocity, we are forced to consider how we arrived at this point. And when we do we cannot but understand the role of Western extremism in giving birth to and nourishing Salafi-jihadi extremism. Moreover, in the midst of the understandable and eminently justifiable grief we feel at events in Manchester, it behooves us not to forget the salient fact that Muslims have and continue to be the biggest victims of this terrorist menace, unleashed in the name of religious purity and sectarianism, and that it is Muslims who are also doing most to confront and fight it, whether in Syria, Iraq, Libya, or Afghanistan. It should not escape our rendering of the issue either that what each of those countries have in common is that they have all been victims of the Western extremism mentioned earlier.

It bears repeating: you cannot continue to invade, occupy, and subvert Muslim and Arab countries and not expect consequences. And when those consequences amount to the slaughter and maiming of your own citizens, the same tired and shallow platitudes we are ritually regaled with by politicians and leaders intent on bolstering their anti-terrorism and security credentials achieve little except induce nausea.
OPINION PIECE

I will admit I am persuaded by the last paragraph. I am disquieted by our sending more troops into Afghanistan to continue the longest war in our history. We are supplying arms to who-knows in Syria; we have troops in Iraq and Yemen. Troops are being sent abroad without announcement to the American people. It is madness. What are your thoughts on who and why we are siding with? Why are we even involved?


IF we hold the KSA responsible and act accordingly, it is going to mess up the narrative.

Remember, we keep being told these are "lone wolves" committing these attacks. That they are acting on their own. They are "self-radicalized."

By suggesting that there is something in the KSAian culture (Wahhabism) sets up another narrative issue. All cultures are equal, with Western Civilization being a bit worse. To suggest this culture is creating problems means we are setting the value of our own culture above those. We will also have to take a look at the implicit imperialism in creating a "War on a certain Culture."

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/24/2017 9:49:06 PM   
tamaka


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https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/08/21/the-threat-and-value-of-saudi-arabia/saudi-arabia-is-a-us-ally-not-a-friend?referer=https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVzlJYSZZ8gsABAtx.9w4;_ylu=X3oDMTE0Z2t0bDJvBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM1BHZ0aWQDVUkyRkJUM18xBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1495716297/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.nytimes.com%2froomfordebate%2f2013%2f08%2f21%2fthe-threat-and-value-of-saudi-arabia%2fsaudi-arabia-is-a-us-ally-not-a-friend/RK=1/RS=Mg.aXxZ8C9_E93B4XhUb5RUqJoY-&nytmobile=0

(in reply to Aylee)
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/25/2017 4:10:28 AM   
WickedsDesire


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Yes, i've been rambling on about the dichotomy for quite sometime

Part of me thinks its the bottom line of $350 billion - $1 trillion.

The towers - wernt most of them Saudi nationals - that's the biggest atrocity on American soil (aside of them killing each other with their guns) and they didnt care what nationals they kill, even their own.

Iran seem the more moderate to me - but that's just me.

America does have the strategy of using up everyone's oil firstly, and bombing the fuk out of someone is good for military business/economy and also for mass data collection, dismantling freedoms; by wire tapping trumps corn flakes or something.

_____________________________

wE arE tHe voiCes,
We SAtuRaTe yOur aLPHA brain WAveS, ThIs is nOt A DrEAm The wiZaRd of Oz, shoES, CaLcuLUs, DECorAtiNG, FrIDGE SProcKeTs, be VeRy sCareDed – SLoBbers,We DeEManDErs Sloowee DAnCiNG, SmOOches – whisper whisper & CaAkEE

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/25/2017 6:28:48 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: respectmen

I think the western world should stay out of the middle east and not try to solve other people's problems. Let them oppress each other and kill each other. Not our fault, not our problem.

The cause of all these ills is fucking islam. Islam is the stem cause of all these problems. It's up to them to give up their batshit crazy religion if they want ro live in peace.

We shouldn't allow them in the western world and we should never be their aid. We should have absolutely nothing to do with these stone age freaks. Just let them keep killing each other and live our happy and peaceful lives in our privileged country.

I don't believe isolationism is really the answer,. History shows us how well that worked. I really don't know the answer, but there has to be one someplace.

(in reply to respectmen)
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/25/2017 6:47:00 AM   
BoscoX


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The answer is education. Every other civilization has given up it's primitive ways, it is time for Islam to grow up, and we really need to force the issue.

It's all fun and games until the suicide bombers have ICBMs

_____________________________

Thought Criminal

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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/25/2017 7:06:30 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

The answer is education. Every other civilization has given up it's primitive ways, it is time for Islam to grow up, and we really need to force the issue.

It's all fun and games until the suicide bombers have ICBMs

Good point Bosco. But education is not in their game plan. The males are subject to heavy indoctrination and the women are apparently kept ignorant and without individual liberty outside the home. From all reports, KSA is an extremely closed and oppressive society. It is unfortunate, but as we have learned much to our Gold Star sorrows we cannot bring about change with our armies. So, what do you mean: "we really need to force the issue?:

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to BoscoX)
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/25/2017 7:24:12 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Wow - what drivel.

They don't slaughter little girls at pop concerts in Manchester, or kidnap girls in Nigeria, or whip gays in Indonesia because of George Bush

You have to be borderline insane to really believe that

You pretend that they are innocent little angels, until we made them mad

What stupidity, what garbage. What total ignorance of the history of Islam, of the teachings of Islam


No doubt they would do those things in their own lands regardless of their encounters with the West. You are quite correct.

quote:

Muslims in the form of the Ottoman Empire declared Jihad on Western powers during WW I. They were going to do to us what they have always done since the time of Mohammad, crucify, behead, or enslave every infidel they encountered as far into Europe and beyond as they could go


Yeah, I am not totally versed in the history of that time, but I 'm working on it. Wasn't there a deal made by Col. Lawrence to give the Arabians self-determination for their own lands, which was violated (reneged) in the Paris Peace Talks (1919) in exchange for their cooperation with the Allies against the Ottomans? They ended up under the dominance of the French and British Mandates. Reportedly, they felt that was a major betrayal.

Shortly thereafter oil was discovered by the British in Iran; that discovery set off an entirely different track which saw the US and Brits overthrow the elected PM of Iran in a coup. More felt betrayal?

quote:

It is far better that we are in control than them, with their primitive cult practices and their Allah who demands that we either serve them as slaves or we die


Haven't all Empires learned how costly it is in treasury and lives to occupy and control an insurgent population? What extraordinary measures would it take to occupy/control the Muslim world?






_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to BoscoX)
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/25/2017 7:25:46 AM   
BoscoX


Posts: 11241
Joined: 12/10/2016
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

The answer is education. Every other civilization has given up it's primitive ways, it is time for Islam to grow up, and we really need to force the issue.

It's all fun and games until the suicide bombers have ICBMs

Good point Bosco. But education is not in their game plan. The males are subject to heavy indoctrination and the women are apparently kept ignorant and without individual liberty outside the home. From all reports, KSA is an extremely closed and oppressive society. It is unfortunate, but as we have learned much to our Gold Star sorrows we cannot bring about change with our armies. So, what do you mean: "we really need to force the issue?:


By "force" I don't mean using violence, except in situations in which it is the best option.

We could create and fund think tanks devoted to instigating massive change among Muslims everywhere, and their primitive belief systems. Stop coddling them and definitely stop importing them, until they do completely change. Crack down on anti-speech leftists, like the Berkeley mobs.

And stop electing leaders who pretend that Islam is the religion of peace

_____________________________

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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/25/2017 7:26:08 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

The towers - wernt most of them Saudi nationals - that's the biggest atrocity on American soil (aside of them killing each other with their guns) and they didnt care what nationals they kill, even their own.

Iran seem the more moderate to me - but that's just me.


Yeah, you have a good point, Wicked.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to WickedsDesire)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/25/2017 7:31:21 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

The answer is education. Every other civilization has given up it's primitive ways, it is time for Islam to grow up, and we really need to force the issue.

It's all fun and games until the suicide bombers have ICBMs

Good point Bosco. But education is not in their game plan. The males are subject to heavy indoctrination and the women are apparently kept ignorant and without individual liberty outside the home. From all reports, KSA is an extremely closed and oppressive society. It is unfortunate, but as we have learned much to our Gold Star sorrows we cannot bring about change with our armies. So, what do you mean: "we really need to force the issue?:


Vincent, we CAN force change. So far though, no one has been willing to. We would just need to kill about 10% of the male population.

But as long as they are getting what they want and allowed to continue with their barbarity, then no, the armies are going to be ineffective.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/25/2017 7:33:19 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/08/21/the-threat-and-value-of-saudi-arabia/saudi-arabia-is-a-us-ally-not-a-friend?referer=https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVzlJYSZZ8gsABAtx.9w4;_ylu=X3oDMTE0Z2t0bDJvBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM1BHZ0aWQDVUkyRkJUM18xBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1495716297/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.nytimes.com%2froomfordebate%2f2013%2f08%2f21%2fthe-threat-and-value-of-saudi-arabia%2fsaudi-arabia-is-a-us-ally-not-a-friend/RK=1/RS=Mg.aXxZ8C9_E93B4XhUb5RUqJoY-&nytmobile=0

Perhaps most importantly, Saudi Arabia is an arch-enemy of the radical Shiite regime in Iran, and its proxies in Syria and Lebanon. The Saudis helped undercut Iran’s economy and, along with our other regional allies, share the stated U.S. position of preventing a nuclear Iran by all means necessary.


So, basically, KSA is our friend as long as we help Sunni in their war against Shia. But that whole thing gets me confused in the Syria debacle.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to tamaka)
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/25/2017 7:35:43 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

US has always gone to bed with the enemy when there are mutual benefits to do so.

Yes, we always seem to get into bed with tyrants. Go figure.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/25/2017 7:39:45 AM   
BoscoX


Posts: 11241
Joined: 12/10/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

No doubt they would do those things in their own lands regardless of their encounters with the West. You are quite correct.



They do those things and far worse, much of it state approved in certain Islamic states

(Milage varies)

quote:

Yeah, I am not totally versed in the history of that time, but I 'm working on it. Wasn't there a deal made by Col. Lawrence to give the Arabians self-determination for their own lands, which was violated (reneged) in the Paris Peace Talks (1919) in exchange for their cooperation with the Allies against the Ottomans? They ended up under the dominance of the French and British Mandates. Reportedly, they felt that was a major betrayal.

Shortly thereafter oil was discovered by the British in Iran; that discovery set off an entirely different track which saw the US and Brits overthrow the elected PM of Iran in a coup. More felt betrayal?


quote:

Haven't all Empires learned how costly it is in treasury and lives to occupy and control an insurgent population? What extraordinary measures would it take to occupy/control the Muslim world?



Again, they do not go into pop concerts and explode themselves because we buy oil from Muslim states, or because they lost their Holy War in the early 1900s, or because of any anti-Western propaganda. The propaganda certainly plays a part, but every other civilization has had wars and has been subjugated and mistreated in one way or another, and has learned to leave issues in the past

Muslims for a long time invaded and raided Europe, slaughtered millions and took countless slaves back, who were treated in extreme inhumane ways. Men were castrated in massive castritoriums, the survivors sold as slaves. Women and children sold in markets as sex slaves, on and on with the Muslim atrocities through time

They do what they do now, for the same reasons they did what they did back then. Their book tells them to do these things, and young Muslim men really believe that if they die in "battle" (aka slaughtering innocents) against anyone who isn't them, infidels, they go to a paradise wherein they literally have eternal hardons and room after room in mansion after mansion filled with young virgin sex slaves


_____________________________

Thought Criminal

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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/25/2017 7:40:34 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

By suggesting that there is something in the KSAian culture (Wahhabism) sets up another narrative issue. All cultures are equal, with Western Civilization being a bit worse. To suggest this culture is creating problems means we are setting the value of our own culture above those. We will also have to take a look at the implicit imperialism in creating a "War on a certain Culture."


It has annoyed me continually that our propaganda machines have ignored to educate Americans about Wahabbism and the role it has played exporting the cult beliefs to South Asia, especially to Pakistan. Yep, you're right.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Aylee)
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RE: WAR ON TERROR CONFUSED MUCH? - 5/25/2017 7:55:42 AM   
Hillwilliam


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If we lead the charge developing alternative and renewable energy to the point where the world doesn't need their fucking oil, we will do more than say "Make America Great Again" we will actually DO it.
Meanwhile, the people in the middle east can go back to eating dirt and rocks and gleefully killing each other as they have for thousands of years.


_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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