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RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 3:05:14 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

The goal should be NO innocents killed...we try for that... they do not. We all have to realize that it is impossible to pursue war without some innocent casualties... That is why war should be avoided and a last resort... I am not so sure the Republican Presidents followed that advice. I believe we as a nation must bear some responsibility for the thousands of innocent deaths that may have been avoided. But certainly nowhere near as much as Islamic radicals.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to WickedsDesire)

Post #: 21

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 3:12:36 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The goal should be NO innocents killed...we try for that... they do not. We all have to realize that it is impossible to pursue war without some innocent casualties... That is why war should be avoided and a last resort... I am not so sure the Republican Presidents followed that advice. I believe we as a nation must bear some responsibility for the thousands of innocent deaths that may have been avoided. But certainly nowhere near as much as Islamic radicals.

Butch

Still, even if the numbers show the west to come in 2nd...[it/we] is/are still their greatest recruiting tool.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 22

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 3:15:00 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

MrRodgers crossed my mind too that

Seems that way Aylee But they had no idea the explosives were there so no! The building(arms dump), the civilians, and unknown explosives were not a legit target

I understand collateral damage - I dont like it being termed that way (ignore the hypocrisy of today's "speech") Accidental - inadvertent murder - seems more apt to me.

I still think all sides should publish death figures and the UN can sift through those, or (Red Cross Oxfam etc- probably these ones) and publish an approximation, and, I get the USA UK doesn't target civilians and innocents 99.9% of the time.

Collateral damage is an Orwellian term, a euphemism to cover the ugliness and death of civilians in war.

Notice how in public anyway, we almost never hear it anymore...and we shouldn't. Plus, how do we know for sure there were any explosives in that bldg. and that's not just cover (spin) for at least some of the deaths of civilians ?

A The bomb we used couldn't do that much damage.
B You seem to like and have more faith in ISIS than in the US.

One helo gunship takes out a couple (or more) snipers.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 23

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 3:16:06 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

We could give ISIS, and all their kindred, a bit of Africa and wall it all off - whats wrong with that?

.....Sudan maybe

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to WickedsDesire)

Post #: 24

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 3:32:38 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The goal should be NO innocents killed...we try for that... they do not. We all have to realize that it is impossible to pursue war without some innocent casualties... That is why war should be avoided and a last resort... I am not so sure the Republican Presidents followed that advice. I believe we as a nation must bear some responsibility for the thousands of innocent deaths that may have been avoided. But certainly nowhere near as much as Islamic radicals.

Butch

Of course Dem Presidents never do anything like that, Obama never even heard of drones.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 25

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 3:40:42 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

MrRodgers crossed my mind too that

Seems that way Aylee But they had no idea the explosives were there so no! The building(arms dump), the civilians, and unknown explosives were not a legit target

I understand collateral damage - I dont like it being termed that way (ignore the hypocrisy of today's "speech") Accidental - inadvertent murder - seems more apt to me.

I still think all sides should publish death figures and the UN can sift through those, or (Red Cross Oxfam etc- probably these ones) and publish an approximation, and, I get the USA UK doesn't target civilians and innocents 99.9% of the time.

Collateral damage is an Orwellian term, a euphemism to cover the ugliness and death of civilians in war.

Notice how in public anyway, we almost never hear it anymore...and we shouldn't. Plus, how do we know for sure there were any explosives in that bldg. and that's not just cover (spin) for at least some of the deaths of civilians ?

A The bomb we used couldn't do that much damage.
B You seem to like and have more faith in ISIS than in the US.

One helo gunship takes out a couple (or more) snipers.

Right, what ever is wrong it is the Americans fault.
Of course you know that the booby trap wouldn't have gone off.
After all seence they sat things up to kill them they would require a major blast to set it off.
How do you know there was a gunship present.
And you do know that we didn't know about about either the murder victims (you can only call what ISIS did here murder) or the booby trap.
And still even though ISIS set this up to kill these people you want to blame the Americans.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 26

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 5:20:12 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

If we are nothing else we are consistent!

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 27

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 5:24:32 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The goal should be NO innocents killed...we try for that... they do not. We all have to realize that it is impossible to pursue war without some innocent casualties... That is why war should be avoided and a last resort... I am not so sure the Republican Presidents followed that advice. I believe we as a nation must bear some responsibility for the thousands of innocent deaths that may have been avoided. But certainly nowhere near as much as Islamic radicals.

Butch

Of course Dem Presidents never do anything like that, Obama never even heard of drones.

Hey fuckwhistle, nobody is talking about nutsuckers, join in with something that is not retarded or go back to wiggling your little peener at the pizza boy from your porch.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 28

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 5:26:29 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

MrRodgers crossed my mind too that

Seems that way Aylee But they had no idea the explosives were there so no! The building(arms dump), the civilians, and unknown explosives were not a legit target

I understand collateral damage - I dont like it being termed that way (ignore the hypocrisy of today's "speech") Accidental - inadvertent murder - seems more apt to me.

I still think all sides should publish death figures and the UN can sift through those, or (Red Cross Oxfam etc- probably these ones) and publish an approximation, and, I get the USA UK doesn't target civilians and innocents 99.9% of the time.

Collateral damage is an Orwellian term, a euphemism to cover the ugliness and death of civilians in war.

Notice how in public anyway, we almost never hear it anymore...and we shouldn't. Plus, how do we know for sure there were any explosives in that bldg. and that's not just cover (spin) for at least some of the deaths of civilians ?

A The bomb we used couldn't do that much damage.
B You seem to like and have more faith in ISIS than in the US.

One helo gunship takes out a couple (or more) snipers.

Right, what ever is wrong it is the Americans fault.
Of course you know that the booby trap wouldn't have gone off.
After all seence they sat things up to kill them they would require a major blast to set it off.
How do you know there was a gunship present.
And you do know that we didn't know about about either the murder victims (you can only call what ISIS did here murder) or the booby trap.
And still even though ISIS set this up to kill these people you want to blame the Americans.

But we knew they were on PCP so we murdered them as proscribed by the constitution, twice.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 29

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 6:06:10 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

Can you imagine the outcry if 105 Americans had been killed as "collateral damage"?

It's not that people are killed in military action -- it's that "Iraqis," not "real people," like "Americans," that were killed.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 30

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 6:08:45 PM

BoscoX

Posts: 11239
Joined: 12/10/2016
Status: online

That's your America-hating fantasy make-believe fake news spin

Here's another view

quote:

MARCH 17 AIR STRIKE IN MOSUL WAS BAIT BY ISLAMISTS

On March 17, a U.S. led air strike targeted a building from which two ISIS snipers were attacking ground forces. When the aircraft took out the target, the explosion was much larger than expected, and collapsed the building. ISIS had booby-trapped it. There were 101 civilians in the basement of the building.

Despicable Plan

Iraqi recon units stated they did not see any civilians go in or out of the building 3 days prior to calling in the air strike, which means it was a calculated plan to kill them in the first place.

The ISIS fighters packed approximately 1,000 pounds of explosives into the building, the placed their snipers on the roof. When the Iraqis called in for an air strike against the snipers at around 8 a.m. on March 17, they had no way of knowing about the civilians sheltering in the basement. There are still 36 people missing after the incident.

According to Stripes,

If you tried to take that GBU-38 and put it right there, it wouldn’t even dent … any of those surrounding walls,” said [Air Force Brig. Gen. Matthew] Isler, who described the building as a thick structure with 30-inch, reinforced cement walls. “They would be intact. They would have a little bit of facial damage on it, but that’s the most you can get.”

Isler also said bad weather on that day and the days leading up to the attack had reduced their ability to obtain overhead surveillance of the target.

[The GBU-38 is a 500 pound bomb fitted with a JDAM or “Joint Direct Attack Munition” which converts it from a free fall bomb into a precision guided one].

The owner of the building had previously invited local families to shelter inside the building because it was the strongest building in the neighborhood. But what originally was a voluntary sheltering turning into something quite different when ISIS came to the house and told everyone they were not allowed to leave or they’d be “considered an enemy.”

Over the years that the US and its coalition partners have been fighting ISIS, one thing has been abundantly clear: the militant jihadists do not care about anyone. They have used women and children as human shields. They have deliberately used churches, hospitals, and schools as places to hide weapons, ammunition, and fighters.

https://news.unclesamsmisguidedchildren.com/march-17-air-strike-in-mosul-was-bait-by-islamists/

_____________________________

Thought Criminal

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 31

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 6:09:53 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

Okay, civilian casualties are bad, and the term 'collateral damage' is a bullshit but accurate way to put it.

However, lets put things in perspective.

WW2:

RAF 1000 plane raid on Cologne, May 20th, 1942 469 deaths, 5000 wounded, 45000 homeless
Dresden raid 25000 civilian deaths
Tokyo Firebombing raid 75000- 200000 civilian deaths
Hamburg raids July 24-30 1943 42600
Kassel Germany 22-23 October 43 10000
Darmstadt Germany 11-12 September 44 11500

Iraq occupation 2003-2011 250000 civilians

So, between 100 and 200 civilians killed in a bombing raid today, while it aint good, it sure as fuck aint as bad as it used to be, and those numbers listed were considered acceptable.

And the reason collateral damage is acceptable is the misguided idea that it will cause the civilians in occupied areas to rise up against the occupiers.

The problem with that philosophy is that it pretty much proves the point that the US and its allies do not care who they kill in their effort to hit worthy targets.

So, in essence the only real way to end the threat of ISIS is to carpet bomb the entire region with a mix of gp, fragmentation, incendiary, cluster bombs until there is nothing left breathing or growing, thus ending the threat of those already ISIS members and eliminating the possible recruit pool.

Of course, now ISIS is telling those wanting to join them from European countries to stay home and attack the infidels in their own countries.

And considering the prevailing conservative rants that all Muslims believe in terrorism and murder, Trump should put all US mosques under surveillance (unconstitutional as hell) it may actually come to that, or maybe taking the suggestion of a member of these boards from many years ago, microchip Muslims like we do our pets and Thoroughbred and Quarter horse race horses and Arabian show horses.

That way if a Muslim walks into a gun shop, or any place where the chemicals that can be used to make homemade explosives are sold, the chip will set off an alarm that can be transmitted to the local FBI or DHS office and they can be arrested.

You people do realize that the "All Muslims believe in terrorism" pretty much parallels the stuff said about Jews in the zionist papers and in the crap the Nazis preached in Germany right?

And of course the Islamic extremists are telling Muslims that the United States (and our allies) want nothing more than to see all Muslims dead.

As I said before, humans use any justification to kill other humans, we have gotten damn good at it. We spend billions of dollars researching ways to be more efficient in killing other humans.

We spend 3 times more than any other country on the planet in the US on our "Defense Department" which should have never been called that, it should have stayed the "War Department" since the bulk of the US military hardware is geared for first strike and offensive operations.

Trump might as well reinstate the draft. It will help the economy by lowering unemployment by a massive percentage, increase military contracts to Colt, Springfield Arms, American General, Lockheed, General Dynamics, and every other industrial firm that makes military hardware.

I mean there are 7.1 million people unemployed in the US as of April. That could be 7.1 million people in uniform!

And above all, rename the Defense department the War Department, as it was originally. The US has not been on a truly defensive footing at any one point in its history.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 32

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 6:12:28 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

I'm gone two days, I come back, make one post, and my ass-licking troll has his tongue instantly up my backside.

Yum yum.

(in reply to BoscoX)

Post #: 33

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 6:22:51 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm gone two days, I come back, make one post, and my ass-licking troll has his tongue instantly up my backside.

Yum yum.

Then you should be saving money on toilet paper.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 34

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 7:55:54 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The goal should be NO innocents killed...we try for that... they do not. We all have to realize that it is impossible to pursue war without some innocent casualties... That is why war should be avoided and a last resort... I am not so sure the Republican Presidents followed that advice. I believe we as a nation must bear some responsibility for the thousands of innocent deaths that may have been avoided. But certainly nowhere near as much as Islamic radicals.

Butch

Of course Dem Presidents never do anything like that, Obama never even heard of drones.

He did continue a Republican President's policy .... so why was it good for Bush and not Obama? Did Obama invade Iraq?

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 35

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/25/2017 9:04:45 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The goal should be NO innocents killed...we try for that... they do not. We all have to realize that it is impossible to pursue war without some innocent casualties... That is why war should be avoided and a last resort... I am not so sure the Republican Presidents followed that advice. I believe we as a nation must bear some responsibility for the thousands of innocent deaths that may have been avoided. But certainly nowhere near as much as Islamic radicals.

Butch

Of course Dem Presidents never do anything like that, Obama never even heard of drones.

He did continue a Republican President's policy .... so why was it good for Bush and not Obama? Did Obama invade Iraq?

Where did I say it was good for Bush.
And after pulling out of Iraq (turning it over to ISIS) why did Obama have to follow Bush's lead.
Once again you want to attack anything done by any Republican and if Obama did it too. well it is Bush's fault.
Don't forget (which you seem to want to) that this was a deliberate act of murder by ISIS.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 36

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/26/2017 6:18:19 AM

BoscoX

Posts: 11239
Joined: 12/10/2016
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm gone two days, I come back, make one post, and my ass-licking troll has his tongue instantly up my backside.

Yum yum.

Then you should be saving money on toilet paper.

His make-believe world is a eerily similar to gramps felchgobble's fantasy world

Perhaps the two felchgobble worlds are morphing into one

Nobody missed you btw

_____________________________

Thought Criminal

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 37

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/26/2017 6:18:39 AM

MasterJaguar01

Posts: 2346
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm gone two days, I come back, make one post, and my ass-licking troll has his tongue instantly up my backside.

Yum yum.

You are a moose. Keep your tail down.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 38

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/26/2017 6:22:39 AM

WickedsDesire

Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline

I wrote this on Vincent's thread seems apt for this one too

The Spanish had a right good go at wiping out South America, they burnt and destroyed everything as they viewed them as Godless savages. They were however unable to damage some of their more impressive megalithic structures and came to realise, eventually, well some of them, there must have truly been vast and greater civilisations than the Spanish to have..or from wiki The motivations for colonial expansion were trade and the spread of the Catholic faith through indigenous conversions. I am not sure any writing exists - perhaps 4 codex's and I think that is it.

Te destruction of written text and iconoclastic structures: statutes, effigies seems to be the in thing

So that was 1500's-1600's and too put that in perspective if you are aged 50(47) it is only 12 lifetime spans ago which isn't that long

Then I can use the most recent example I know the Irish troubles which have only recently died down 3500 dead over the last 40ish years. Too complicated for me to explain but in essence it was Catholic V Protestant and if any of you know what the olde firm football game is then a lot of the hatred i still there. hate for hate as most as unaware of the full history.

Ethnic cleansing genocide - you could argue is the same religious based, or a certain ideology enforced.

So its always been around, still is, and thats just a couple of recent random examples to put it into perspective. They are rarely mentioned in the context of ISIS and that ilk, or Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler

You can easily argue the West intervention created these trouble, or heightened them to an extent rarely witnessed in the modern epoch.

So is it getting worse or better - its a simple question.

I Just read a bit today from Jeremy Corbyn and well read for yourself http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40053427

he is actually right in a many ways. What we are currently doing is not working and yet the opposition are trying to pillored(not sure thats the right spelling) him for that - tuts

_________________________

Its getting worse.
You can also lob in the more desperate people get the more desperate they become (or worse they become).
There are many atrocities in some African countries that rarely, if ever, make the news, and their deaths tolls are impressive.

I've no solutions or real ideas - you cant say here is land for your caliphate in you go (wall it off I would). Many there would not be there by choice or free will, and that doesn't include conditioned ones, or ones there through fear and terror.

You cant say more of your leaders, community speak out, and I wish that they would
1. Catholic v Protestant years Yugoslavia anyone remember that?
a. The point being many of their secular leaders have the complete samish interpretation - yet opposing interpretations of bits, eg Shiite V Sunnis (and even within those groups there will be factions and splinters)
b. After e g that Spanish thing i was talking about I would need to think - Catholicism in Africa was the next kinda crusade
c. Christianity was still burning witches and scientists etc up to what the 1700-1800s. But we have seemed to have settled down now, I think (irish troubles aside seems to be the last one I remember - 3500 deeded in that one)
2. Control the people of your own religion - who controlled our lands up to 1700s ish. The church is who, not best to be in charge methinks - and that is what they effectively have and therein lies the problem.

The strategists will know all of this and much more

So the current solution they opt for seems to be economic and conflict, pit one side against another, take their cash, as long as they are fighting, or worried about each other, they wont bother us (expand their sphere), or they can destroy each other, first, then we will control, or destroy the remnants - really the olde divide and conquer adage

_____________________________

wE arE tHe voiCes,
We SAtuRaTe yOur aLPHA brain WAveS, ThIs is nOt A DrEAm The wiZaRd of Oz, shoES, CaLcuLUs, DECorAtiNG, FrIDGE SProcKeTs, be VeRy sCareDed – SLoBbers,We DeEManDErs Sloowee DAnCiNG, SmOOches – whisper whisper & CaAkEE

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)

Post #: 39

RE: US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's ... - 5/26/2017 6:26:38 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJaguar01

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm gone two days, I come back, make one post, and my ass-licking troll has his tongue instantly up my backside.

Yum yum.

You are a moose. Keep your tail down.

Caribou actually.

Moose:

(in reply to MasterJaguar01)

Post #: 40

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