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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 1:41:41 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Food stamps have been history for over a decade.

Do you mind if I ask for a little clarification about this statement? Are you referring to the fact that the actual 'stamps' have been replaced by what is more or less like a debit card, where the account is credited each month or did you mean something else?




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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 1:49:50 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The "intellectuals" (as you put it) probably didn't think to calculate leadership dumb enough to ignore structural fiscal problems by papering over it with short-term monetary policy courtesy of the Fed (doing its job).

Years ago, the liquidity trap was an abstract theoretical construct. No imagined we'd actually put it to the test.

But then, we weren't anticipating that both major parties would decide to move overtly to oligarchy.

And now kleptocracy.

You are correct but the so-called liquidity trap was a misnomer at least as it applies to the lack of liquidity in the post TARP failure to expand the economy. This was in that there are not only trillion$ now sidelined due to corp. tax avoidance prompting the largest lending going on now, to pay dividend but lending to society and especially small business, dried up.

The corruption of the ruling parties was that one actually made sure to restore the value of equities (paper) while the other wanted to bailout Joe 6-pack too, even taxing to do it which would have maintained the deep recession.

There is and has been plenty of liquidity since 2008, the owners (lenders/investor) were too tight fisted. Yes, the plutocracy remains in full force and the careers are all continuing, on the backs of workers and taxpayers.



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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:00:46 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AtUrCervix


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Rep. Adrian Smith (R-Neb.) refused to say whether “every American is entitled to eat” and the food stamps program is the best way to ensure that they have the food they need.

NPR’s Scott Simon interviewed Smith on Saturday about the farm bill and President Donald Trump’sproposed cuts to the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, commonly known as food stamps. In the president’s budget, the White House is seeking $193 billion in cuts to SNAP over 10 years, an amount equal to more than one-quarter of the program’s cost over that period.

There is room for “very minor shifts” in SNAP that “make sure we do not harm the most vulnerable among us,” according to Smith.

“Especially for people in need we do not want to leave our most vulnerable without nutrition,” he said. “Looking at that, we always want to keep that in mind.”

But Simon pressed Smith on his views about the program’s underlying philosophy.

“Let me ask you this bluntly: Is every American entitled to eat?” he asked.

“Well, nutrition obviously we know is very important and I would hope that we can look to ―” Smith began.

“Well, not just important, it’s essential for life,” Simon interjected.

Smith conceded that nutrition is essential to life.

“So is every American entitled to eat and is food stamps something that ought to be that ultimate guarantor?” Simon persisted.

“I think we know that given the necessity of nutrition, there could be a number of ways that we could address that,” Smith answered.

As Smith later observed, a president’s budget is merely a set of suggestions that reflect the president’s fiscal priorities. It is up to Congress to allot the funds for federal programs. The president can then sign or veto budget legislation they craft.

Smith refused to rule out reductions in SNAP spending as part of that process, however.

“I want to look at our entire budget, look at all of the details,” he said.

Roughly 43 million low-income Americans receive SNAP benefits, which are vouchers to buy food. Enrollment has dropped significantly since 2014 due to improvement in the economy.

Mick Mulvaney, director of the White House Office of Management and Budget, by claiming there are people receiving benefits who do not need them given how long ago the recession was.

The administration has not been clear about its intentions for the means-tested aid program though. Secretary of Agriculture Sonny Perdue, whose department oversees SNAP, has defended SNAP’s performance and claimed that it will be up to Congress to decide how much it wants to reduce the program’s spending.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gop-congressman-declines-whether-every-173031436.html


im wondering why people are so silent about this....




Probably for similar reasons that people were so vocal during Johnson's reign among others where free (everything) was handed out and it changed nothing and in many ways, made things worse.

It was Pres. Clinton who first said "ya'll gotta do something...if you can....no more free anything".

He cut assistance programs across the board by limiting the time span allowed wherein which people could remain on programs designed for a hand up, that had evolved in to programs that were a hand out.

Productivity (for a lot of other reasons) rose faster than at any recorded time in U.S. history and we quickly approached a rare opportunity to pay off the debt (in full) only to watch the next Pres restore many of those assistance programs and raised our debt (for a lot of other reasons) because we "had the money to do so".

But we don't anymore.

And if we simply wrote off the entire debt...all 20 trillion....we still....don't anymore.



You are mostly correct, with a few exceptions in my memory. Plus there is that peaky aspect called perspective.

According to my memory, there was little in the way of free everything under Johnson. He created what was to be commonly known as AFDC. He also created Medicare. Nixon reformed welfare (calling it AFDC) to mainly deny assistance to families with any able-bodied man living at home, which broke up the family.

Clinton didn't cut programs as much as he put on a time limit of 2 years. Yes, productivity increases exploded but by luck. What the 90's enjoyed was the explosion of both the PC and the Internet. 20+ million jobs and their taxes created an operating surplus and he also in fact reduced fed. mgovt. payroll by 200,000.

The following admin. cut taxes massively twice and started two wars going through $11 trillion. A $5 trillion projected surplus if they had done nothing plus $6 trillion in wars and Part D Medicare which was a deliberate windfall (at retail) to big pharma.

I am not aware of any assistance programs GWB increased. That may have occurred due to SNAP and assistance going up at the bust of the Dot.com boom.

The proper perspective is that no corporate food stamps (welfare) were cut and the MIC flourished, the combination of which put trillion$ in the pockets of the corp. and investor class and at a time just after their taxes were cut.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to AtUrCervix)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:06:01 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Food stamps work. Each month they help feed 43 million poor and low-income Americans, most in families with children and working parents. Food stamps, officially the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, keep millions of people from falling into poverty each year and prevent millions of poor people, many disabled or elderly, from falling deeper into poverty.


Exactly. Charities cannot handle the magnitude of the problem.



what would anyone expect when we spend most of our money spreading the illusion of democracy at the end of a barrel of a gun then wonder why we get blowback?


But surely you would agree that we need stable oil fields to feed the engines to move our guns. It's complicated.

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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:08:03 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's your comeback? You've really got nothing then.

You simply shared one of Marx's essential points, that capitalism is feudalism dressed up.

* shrug *



Oh, that is new and interesting to me. Thank you, MM.

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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:15:22 PM   
Musicmystery


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Welcome!

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:23:25 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

There are those whose mental health precludes them from benefiting from ANY program. Basically, there are always going to be people who don't or won't live by societies mores for whatever reason, and what do you do with them? Feeding them seems the least .... smelly solution. Human corpses smell - for a while.


In the 17th Century, whenever, England passed the poor laws and (correct me if my memory is bad, it was such a long while ago) established work houses to which the poor were gathered up from the streets and sentenced as criminals. When the work houses were too overflowing the leftovers were shipped to the colonies as indentured servants. By nature of being poor a person was either a criminal or immoral. I believe the spirit of the poor laws dwells as an agitated ghost even today in the political Right of this nation, and motivates the self-righteous law givers. It is an inhumane and immoral way to categorize the poor, especially the mentally ill, the schizophrenics, the personality dysfunctional. It is hardly Christian philosophy, is it?

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:25:17 PM   
WickedsDesire


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Eat! Absolutely not.
Own guns! Absolutely.

Although I am not without solutions:

1. They could of course apply for a job at the orange nutters swanky bolt hole as a grass chomper: game of golf $20 million. So I am sure that indecent fellow would see them alright. Although they best mind the hazards; orange turds scattered about everywhere by some shit spraying maniac; nutritional value complete shite.
2. Cannibalism. And if you are prepared to think far enough ahead they will infact cure their own problems by eating each other out of existence. And whom amongst us would not agree this is for the best, for the starving wretches.


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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:26:48 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

They will never pass cutting food stamps. Too many moderate republicans have a conscience.

Under Obama, the repubs in congress were all too eager to cut food stamps and the moderate repubs went along.

This 'anti-establishment, clean out the swamp' Trump budget, is in fact...republican establishment 101 and will only be adjusted around the edges.

Similar to Trumpcare, it is a disguised in the form of a starting point for serious cuts in everything but corporate welfare and the MIC.

Trumpcare is a massive 'permanent' tax cut for the rich disguised as a repeal of Obamacare and can't be filibustered and will have no automatic 'sunset' or expirations as did GWB original tax cuts from 2003 et al.

I agree. Don't we have 43 million receiving food stamps? Is that the number. Could it be that? 12% of the population?

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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:33:45 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I thought you liked State control...then what is your solution... you do a fine job of bitching... but never any substance. Saying people should turn to churches is easy... but what if you are gay... will your church be charitable? What if you are an atheist...will your church be charitable? What you are of a different religion without resources... will your church be charitable? As you know churches are quickly losing their flock... what happens to the poor and destitute then?... Should we let them eat cake?

Come on lets have some answers not bull crap rhetoric. If part of the condition for tax exemption is to be a charitable organization... then let make them be charitable to the tune of 10 percent.

Butch


Charitable organizations are held accountable to be charitable i'm sure. They have to submit Financials to the government. As well as non-profits.



tamaka my little suggestion was tongue and cheek.... I just wanted to point out the folly of expecting a church to be the main support for the poor.

Although I do like your idea.

Butch

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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:34:19 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

What intellectuals failed to account for, is the increase in poverty (2/3 of all increase in net wealth since 1977, went to the top 1%) and the corresponding inability to borrow and make use of the low interest rates.


A massive transfer of wealth upwards stealing from the poor and the elderly. What will it take for the plowman or the mechanic coming home from his second job at Walmart to awaken to Trump's role as leader and stabilizer of this new order?

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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:37:02 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

oligarchy. . . . kleptocracy.


Thank you again, MM. An excellent summery.

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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:39:31 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Probably for similar reasons that people were so vocal during Johnson's reign among others where free (everything) was handed out and it changed nothing and in many ways, made things worse.


Everything was not handed out. The war on poverty failed because the money was diverted to the War in Vietnam after 1964.

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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:44:08 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Starving the poor to pay of the debt is despicable, Cutting SSDI and medicaid to pay off the debt is despicable, the fact that the money saved by slashing food stamps, SSDI< CHIP, Meals on wheels and other community programs is only going to the 1% is barbaric, dangerous and ugly.
I get you dont understand, but then you have never been there.



Honestly i don't see how they can cut SSDI because it is an insurance policy people paid for. The only people who can collect SSDI are people who worked many years and paid into the insurance plan and paid taxes all of those years. The people who collect SSDI are not on medicaid, they are on medicare.


I fear you are wrong on this, m'dear. It is not an insurance policy at all. It is an accounting entry in the debit side of our national ledger. The successive governments have "borrowed" the money and left behind a barrel of piss stained IOUs. SSDI is part of our national debt.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:46:40 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Here is an idea.... Lets make a law that all churches that claim a tax exemption be required to donate 10 percent of their collections to a food fund distributed by states monitored by the Federal government.

Butch

First Amendment violation, Butch.

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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:49:07 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

There are those whose mental health precludes them from benefiting from ANY program. Basically, there are always going to be people who don't or won't live by societies mores for whatever reason, and what do you do with them? Feeding them seems the least .... smelly solution. Human corpses smell - for a while.


In the 17th Century, whenever, England passed the poor laws and (correct me if my memory is bad, it was such a long while ago) established work houses to which the poor were gathered up from the streets and sentenced as criminals. When the work houses were too overflowing the leftovers were shipped to the colonies as indentured servants. By nature of being poor a person was either a criminal or immoral. I believe the spirit of the poor laws dwells as an agitated ghost even today in the political Right of this nation, and motivates the self-righteous law givers. It is an inhumane and immoral way to categorize the poor, especially the mentally ill, the schizophrenics, the personality dysfunctional. It is hardly Christian philosophy, is it?


We had a poorhouse/workhouse in the town I grew up in. My grandmother was born and bred in the town and used to tell us stories about it, it terrified her, She grew up in an age that females of her social class had three ways to stay out of the workhouse, prostitution, marriage to someone who had a decent job, or house maid/kitchen maid, and hope. She spent some time there as a child, and it stayed with her till she died. She never got over it, even tho she married my granfather who was a cop, and ended up having a middle class life.
THey turned it into a hospital, and it was not a pleasant place from the history. I worked there as a nurse, many years ago, and it was like a victorian prison.
She wouldnt go to the hospital to visit people, when she had to go into it for an emergency op, she had nightmares for weeks.
Having been homeless myself twice, it was a nightmare, and I have the same fear of it happening again, I know how fast it can happen.
one of the reasons Im so passionate about it.
the reality is horrendous.


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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:50:48 PM   
kdsub


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Only if we don't change it...lol... it has happened before and would it not be the Christian thing to do?

I know lets at least make the church bury the poor for free... you know get rid of the excess population and all.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:51:19 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Starving the poor to pay of the debt is despicable, Cutting SSDI and medicaid to pay off the debt is despicable, the fact that the money saved by slashing food stamps, SSDI< CHIP, Meals on wheels and other community programs is only going to the 1% is barbaric, dangerous and ugly.
I get you dont understand, but then you have never been there.



Honestly i don't see how they can cut SSDI because it is an insurance policy people paid for. The only people who can collect SSDI are people who worked many years and paid into the insurance plan and paid taxes all of those years. The people who collect SSDI are not on medicaid, they are on medicare.


I fear you are wrong on this, m'dear. It is not an insurance policy at all. It is an accounting entry in the debit side of our national ledger. The successive governments have "borrowed" the money and left behind a barrel of piss stained IOUs. SSDI is part of our national debt.


That's their problem and the taxpayers problem. Not those who are legally collecting on the insurance policy they paid into.

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RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 2:51:35 PM   
Lucylastic


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Mick Mulvaney*hiss* vs Bernie Sanders talking about the very subject.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4671461/senator-sanders-challenges-director-mulvaney-tax-breaks

This is from last week,

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\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(•_•)
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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Is every American is entitled to eat? - 5/29/2017 3:00:06 PM   
kiwisub22


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Preaching to the choir - I have a daughter who sees black monster blobs that tell her to kill herself. She has been told by her psychiatrist that she will always see and hear things. So, basically, she is never going to be able to work full time. If there weren't the programs in place, she would be on the street, or living with me. As an alternative, a safe building providing food and shelter wouldn't be the most awful thing out there. As it is, she gets by on disability and SNAP - barely, as long as her father and I do things like pay her car insurance, and buy her a new old car, and throw in a few bucks every month.
She is basically unemployable, inspite of being very intelligent.

There are worse things than being housed and fed. But as I said, there will always be those who won't or can't take the help. And those are the ones that need to be fed. Unless we are willing to lock up the crazy ones, the ones who won't live in the way that society says they should, then we need to assist the poor.

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