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Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 1:16:18 AM   
respectmen


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPojltjv4M0

This guy totally ruins lefties.
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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 1:29:37 AM   
heavyblinker


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'It's time for conservatives to stop apologizing for being conservatives'

This happens?

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 1:42:51 AM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: respectmen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPojltjv4M0

This guy totally ruins lefties.


He seemed most intent on explaining to the audience how to spell the word 'phallus.'

#priorities

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 4:23:52 AM   
WhoreMods


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Since when is postmodernism a leftist thing?

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 4:24:51 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Since when is postmodernism a leftist thing?

I thought it was an art style.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 4:43:39 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Since when is postmodernism a leftist thing?

I thought it was an art style.

It is, and a lot of the artists associated with the style are right wingers like Jeff Koons, Damien Hirst and the Chapman brothers. I can't think of a single prominent left leaning prominent boutique artist offhand. (Banksy is a graffiti artist rather than a fine artist so doesn't count.)

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 4:49:58 AM   
heavyblinker


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It's a movement that suggests that meaning is, to various degrees, socially constructed and largely relative.
The meninists hate it because it suggests that they aren't naturally superior to women.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 5:06:59 AM   
Musicmystery


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Postmodernism is a deconstructionist approach to art, literature, and architecture, and a reaction to the modernist movement of the early 20th century. It's a movement now 70 years old, i.e., history, not current events. It's primary features are a mixture of architectural styles and a trend in fiction toward meta-fiction (writing about writing).

It has exactly zero to do with feminists or "leftists" or Muslims or Australian politics.



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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 5:37:20 AM   
Kirata


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There is of course the detail that Peterson isn't talking about the Postmodernist movement in art and architecture.

1. If you believe that there is an objective natural reality, a reality whose existence and properties are logically independent of human beings, you're not a Postmodernist.

2. If you believe that the descriptive and explanatory statements of scientists and historians can, in principle, be objectively true or false, you're not a Postmodernist.

3. If you believe that through the use of reason and logic, and with the more specialized tools provided by science and technology, human beings are likely to change themselves and their societies for the better, you're not a Postmodernist.

4. If you believe that reason and logic are universally valid—i.e., their laws are the same for, or apply equally to, any thinker and any domain of knowledge, you're not a Postmodernist.

5. If you believe that there is such a thing as human nature; it consists of faculties, aptitudes, or dispositions that are in some sense present in human beings at birth rather than learned or instilled through social forces, you're not a Postmodernist.

6. If you believe that language refers to and represents a reality outside itself, you're not a Postmodernist.

7. If you believe that human beings can acquire knowledge about natural reality, and this knowledge can be justified ultimately on the basis of evidence or principles that are, or can be, known immediately, intuitively, or otherwise with certainty, you're not a Postmodernist.

8. If you believe that it is possible, at least in principle, to construct general theories that explain many aspects of the natural or social world within a given domain of knowledge, you're not a Postmodernist.

Source: Brittanica

K.



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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 5:49:20 AM   
Musicmystery


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Well, "All about Philosophy" notes a vague definition:

Postmodernism

Postmodernism – A Description

Postmodernism is difficult to define, because to define it would violate the postmodernist's premise that no definite terms, boundaries, or absolute truths exist. In this article, the term “postmodernism” will remain vague, since those who claim to be postmodernists have varying beliefs and opinions on issues.

Are nationalism, politics, religion, and war the result of a primitive human mentality? Is truth an illusion? How can Christianity claim primacy or dictate morals? The list of concerns goes on and on especially for those affected by a postmodern philosophy and lifestyle. For some, the questions stem from lost confidence in a corrupt Western world. For others, freedom from traditional authority is the issue. Their concern centers around the West’s continued reliance on ancient and traditional religious morals, nationalism, capitalism, inept political systems, and unwise use and adverse impact of promoting “trade offs” between energy resources and environment, for economic gain.

According to the Postmodern Worldview, the Western world society is an outdated lifestyle disguised under impersonal and faceless bureaucracies. The postmodernist endlessly debates the modernist about the Western society needing to move beyond their primitiveness of ancient traditional thought and practices.

Their concerns, for example, often include building and using weapons of mass destruction, encouraging an unlimited amount of consumerism thus fostering a wasteful throwaway society at the sacrifice of the earth’s resources and environment, while at the same time not serving the fair and equitable socioeconomic needs of the populace.

Postmodernists believe that the West’s claims of freedom and prosperity continue to be nothing more than empty promises and have not met the needs of humanity. They believe that truth is relative and truth is up to each individual to determine for himself. Most believe nationalism builds walls, makes enemies, and destroys “Mother Earth," while capitalism creates a “have and have not” society, and religion causes moral friction and division among people.

Postmodernism claims to be the successor to the 17th century Enlightenment. For over four centuries, “postmodern thinkers” have promoted and defended a New Age way of conceptualizing and rationalizing human life and progress. Postmodernists are typically atheistic or agnostic while some prefer to follow eastern religion thoughts and practices. Many are naturalist including humanitarians, environmentalists, and philosophers.

They challenge the core religious and capitalistic values of the Western world and seek change for a new age of liberty within a global community. Many prefer to live under a global, non-political government without tribal or national boundaries and one that is sensitive to the socioeconomic equality for all people.

Postmodernism – Right and Wrong?

Postmodernists do not attempt to refine their thoughts about what is right or wrong, true or false, good or evil. They believe that there isn’t such a thing as absolute truth. A postmodernist views the world outside of themselves as being in error, that is, other people’s truth becomes indistinguishable from error. Therefore, no one has the authority to define truth or impose upon others his idea of moral right and wrong.

Their self-rationalization of the universe and world around them pits themselves against divine revelation versus moral relativism. Many choose to believe in naturalism and evolution rather than God and creationism.

Postmodernism – Politics

Postmodernists protest Western society’s suppression of equal rights. They believe that the capitalistic economic system lacks equal distribution of goods and salary. While the few rich prosper, the mass populace becomes impoverished. Postmodernists view democratic constitutions as flawed in substance, impossible to uphold, and unfair in principle.

http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/postmodernism.htm

In short, the OP is still a self-serving rant.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 6:52:59 AM   
tweakabelle


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Your account of postmodernism is a fairer and less biased offering than Kirata's. Which is only to be expected - Kirata doesn't have a particularly favourable view of post modernism.

I find a useful shorthand approach to PM is to view it as a series of narratives that proceed from the core realisation that objective 'Truth' is impossible for humans to achieve. It is neither of the left nor the right politically - PM-ists regard both sets of ideologies as fatally flawed.

One way of looking at the history of western thought science and philosophy is that it has been an attempt to discover the nature of objective 'Truth'. It is a salient fact that all attempts to do so over the past two millennia have failed. So rather than pursue approaches that have been consistent failures, PM-ists accept the impossibility of human objectivity and ask what might the world look like if we abandon this concept altogether.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 6:55:26 AM   
Musicmystery


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My own view of postmodernism is the same as of all the other named movements:

A "Hardening of the Categories" created after the fact in the interest of artificial generalization.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 6:57:17 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

My own view of postmodernism is the same as of all the other named movements:

A "Hardening of the Categories" created after the fact in the interest of artificial generalization.

That's a very post modernist perspective!

Or more accurately, that's a perspective that most PM-ists would regard positively.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 7:06:32 AM   
Musicmystery


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Or anyone creative or individual or original.


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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 7:20:21 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Your account of postmodernism is a fairer and less biased offering than Kirata's. Which is only to be expected - Kirata doesn't have a particularly favourable view of post modernism.

Except that his account isn't his, and "my" offering isn't mine: It's Brittanica's. Those stinking biased Brits!

Get over yourself.

K.


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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 7:30:56 AM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Your account of postmodernism is a fairer and less biased offering than Kirata's. Which is only to be expected - Kirata doesn't have a particularly favourable view of post modernism.


I actually unblocked that douche to read it-- I don't think it was really so different from MM's source.
There are definitely works that are consciously postmodern-- anything 'post' is going to be more about being critical of what exists than creating anything new.

RM is obviously an idiot, but Jordan Peterson is no dummy... he knows what he's talking about. He likes to attack the favorite RWNJ targets-- political correctness, liberal bias in academia, etc... and of course the telltale RWNJ persecution complex is there in spades.

The issue here is that he is taking the actions of a handful and generalizing them to 'the left', in pretty much the same way that punchable fuckface Ben Shapiro does.
He'll teach a group of weak-minded, not-so-bright RWNJs the meaning of a logical fallacy and then pretend it's the exclusive property of the left... stuff like that.

They're just really dark, really nasty people who want to turn everything into some sort of righteous struggle against things that aren't actually hurting them and aren't as bad as they need them to be.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 7:53:31 AM   
MrRodgers


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If some are correct here, I too don't have a particularly favorable view of post-modernism.

Sounds to me that it is an abstract concept and one not founded at all in the very logic and science it necessarily disregards to form a basis for the obviously abstract notion that..no objective truth exists. That's ridiculous on its face.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 8:06:22 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Sounds to me that it is an abstract concept and one not founded at all in the very logic and science it necessarily disregards to form a basis for the obviously abstract notion that..no objective truth exists. That's ridiculous on its face.


The idea that there is no objective notion of truth is utterly consistent with science, where all 'truth' is provisional, a hypothesis that works until a superior hypothesis is formulated and advanced. You might also like to consider the implications of Godel's Theorem in respect to your claims too. One implication is that a 'Theory of Everything' (which is akin to a notion of objective truth) is impossible - one can have a consistent explanation of the data but not a complete one, and vice versa. All (rational) explanations are therefore partial.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 8:11:03 AM   
mnottertail


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I musta been around for pre-modernism and modernism, and didn't see any reason to fight that, so I guess its way too early to take a wait-and-see attitude to this new fangled post-modernism jazz.

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RE: Jordan Peterson: Why You Have To Fight Postmodernism - 6/8/2017 8:43:48 AM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Sounds to me that it is an abstract concept and one not founded at all in the very logic and science it necessarily disregards to form a basis for the obviously abstract notion that..no objective truth exists. That's ridiculous on its face.


The idea that there is no objective notion of truth is utterly consistent with science


Yes, this.

Peterson wants us to regard our current society as some sort of magnificent achievement for which we must all be grateful-- as if anyone who isn't happy should just STFU and admit that they're actually very lucky.
If only he could get rid of all the liberals, then everything would be perfect.

Meanwhile, Donald Trump is president.
Nope, nothing wrong here.

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