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Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 5:58:36 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Below you will read a question Level asked me on the poll i started about freedoms you would fight for and my response, it is what made me decide to start this thread.

What freedoms do you value the most?

Would you fight for them? Even if it meant taking up arms?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

To twice:
 
When you say "fight" do you mean fistfight, or taking up arms?


I mean FIGHT! By whatever means necessary; protesting, marching, voting, if in the end it came to it i would take up arms.

I was raised in a biker type environment from the age of 12, before that i was raised in the old farm lifestyle; both groups were always willing to do what they must to protect their rights and freedoms.

I watched a dear friend spend many years caged for standing up for his beliefs. This country was founded by men and women who took up arms to gain and hold those rights to personal freedom we all hold so dear.

Would i take up arms, DAMN STRAIGHT! 

I have owned my own gun since i was six when my granny taught me to hunt squirrels for the pot. I have carried a gun when i had to in order to protect my brother's backs in full knowledge that in doing so i also became a target.

Fighting does not scare me, dying holds no fear for me. Losing the right to live how i fucking well choose scares the living hell out of me. 

When they outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns.

Remember; Once upon a time this nation as a whole, all of our forefathers as a group were considered outlaws by our then government. And as a people we chose to fight.



 


< Message edited by twicehappy -- 7/27/2006 6:07:12 AM >

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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 6:31:38 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		If you are talking about the British when you say your then government thought you were all outlaws, that is not true but a myth and the reason for the half hearted way they fought the war with no real strategy. The war of independence was as much a civil war as a war against the British. Don't forget Canada is full of your then fellow citizens that didn't agree with the winning side and fled or were chased out of the country by the new regime. According to UN stats they have a better quality of life for it. In fact, the new Canadian citizens had more freedoms than the newly liberated people in the colonies.

I'd do anthing to retain my freedom but going as far as violence, it would have to be a dire situation, once you turn to violence you open pandora's box and there is no telling what the final outcome will be and the chances are you might end up under a worse regime. Violence is easier said than done, if you look around the world at the amount of people that live under subjugation, you would expect more violence not less so when push comes to shove, most people will be reluctant to take up violence no matter what they might say.

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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 6:37:09 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		In the normal course of things I think I could safely say that I would NOT take up arms. Of course, in the UK, *taking up arms* would be terribly difficult, in any case.

If the post is referring to whether I would actively put myself FORWARD to take up arms, then the answer would likely STILL be *no*.

Guns are NOT a way of life here.... they are not viewed in the same way as they may be in the US.

I don't have any experiences or convictions that would inspire me to put a gun in my hand or that of any of my children ( apart from the fact that it would be rather difficult to do so)

It's actually quite difficult to imagine how I might behave in EXTREME circumstances.........because it would just be supposition.

agirl

(in reply to twicehappy)
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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 6:42:38 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		The freedom I value most is freedom, and I fight for it all the time in all manner at my disposal.

Sometimes its hard, especially when it's a freedoms that I disagree, or one that doesn't effect my personal activity or belief. For example, riding a motorcycle, I wear a helmet, but I fight against the law that makes you wear one. Most freedoms that have been taken away, seat-belts, helmets, smoking, were attacks by a minority on a smaller minority. They were lost by the majority being apathetic. "I'm not a smoker, I don't ride a MC, why should I care?" With in increasing polarization this will get worse, because the majority still doesn't understand that any freedom taken away from anybody ultimately erodes freedom for all.

But I'll keep fighting, sending letters, sending money, trying to find freedom loving candidates; until that freedom also disappears.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 6:45:40 AM   
twicehappy


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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


I'd do anthing to retain my freedom but going as far as violence, it would have to be a dire situation,  Violence is easier said than done, if you look around the world at the amount of people that live under subjugation, you would expect more violence not less so when push comes to shove, most people will be reluctant to take up violence no matter what they might say.


MC you will note i listed  more desirable ways than violence as my first choices for change, but i have been faced with violence to protect my way of life in the past, and i'm still standing.

If Canadians are happy with their lifestyle i am glad for them, it is a beautiful country. But i will live and die on American soil, and if it ever came down to it (doubtful i agree) i would do so defending my rights to live it as i choose with my own American blood.  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The freedom I value most is freedom, and I fight for it all the time in all manner at my disposal.

Most freedoms that have been taken away, seat-belts, helmets, smoking, were attacks by a minority on a smaller minority. They were lost by the majority being apathetic. "I'm not a smoker, I don't ride a MC, why should I care?" With in increasing polarization this will get worse, because the majority still doesn't understand that any freedom taken away from anybody ultimately erodes freedom for all.

But I'll keep fighting, sending letters, sending money, trying to find freedom loving candidates; until that freedom also disappears.


<image deleted>


< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 7/27/2006 6:55:12 AM >

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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 6:55:46 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		Well, what does *blood* have to do with anything?. I can't see what a mere fluke of birth adds to any reasoned decision to *stand up* for anything at all.

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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:05:32 AM   
Rongreenw


Posts: 7
Joined: 7/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The freedom I value most is freedom, and I fight for it all the time in all manner at my disposal.

Sometimes its hard, especially when it's a freedoms that I disagree, or one that doesn't effect my personal activity or belief. For example, riding a motorcycle, I wear a helmet, but I fight against the law that makes you wear one. Most freedoms that have been taken away, seat-belts, helmets, smoking, were attacks by a minority on a smaller minority. They were lost by the majority being apathetic. "I'm not a smoker, I don't ride a MC, why should I care?" With in increasing polarization this will get worse, because the majority still doesn't understand that any freedom taken away from anybody ultimately erodes freedom for all.

But I'll keep fighting, sending letters, sending money, trying to find freedom loving candidates; until that freedom also disappears.


If they ever hold a democratic election to elect a President of the Planet, Mercnbeth gets my vote.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:09:43 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Well, what does *blood* have to do with anything?. I can't see what a mere fluke of birth adds to any reasoned decision to *stand up* for anything at all.


Blood is the ultimate currency any being can pay for whatever it is they fight for or believe in. 

Soldiers, revolutionaries, rebels, religious leaders, protesters, even various godheads (think Jesus here even though i am not a Christian or Prometheus who spends eternity chained to a rock having his liver ripped out daily for giving man the gift of fire) have paid throughout history with their blood, with their lives if they had too, for what they held dear or true.

Even mothers pay for the birth of each and every child they bear in blood and pain.

As to fluke of birth, that may be so, but i like every other adult American can choose at any time to leave this country and take up citizenship else where. I like so many others believe in the good in my country and choose to stay and fight the bad.


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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:13:00 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

If they ever hold a democratic election to elect a President of the Planet, Mercnbeth gets my vote.


But I always wanted to be emperor! "Emperor Merc" has a nice ring to it, and is more suited to my ancestry.

Seriously, everyone should keep the perspective that any freedom lost by someone else results in us all losing freedom. 

(in reply to Rongreenw)
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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:19:00 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		What I *hold dear and true* is utterly personal and human, nothing to DO with where I happen to have been born.............it's got NOTHING to do with my *british* blood. Blood MAY be the ultimate *price* but it matters not a fuck what KIND of blood it is or what soil it gets spilt on.

You mentioned *living and dying on American soil* and *American blood*......I don't have that patriotic fervour.

I don't *see* myself as *british* .

agirl





(in reply to twicehappy)
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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:21:00 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I don't personally see it as wether or not I would fight for my "freedom"

What I see as more of an issue is what individuals determine as freedoms........aka rights.

That seems to be the issue that causes the most trouble.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:22:23 AM   
kiska


Posts: 160
Joined: 11/17/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rongreenw

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The freedom I value most is freedom, and I fight for it all the time in all manner at my disposal.

Sometimes its hard, especially when it's a freedoms that I disagree, or one that doesn't effect my personal activity or belief. For example, riding a motorcycle, I wear a helmet, but I fight against the law that makes you wear one. Most freedoms that have been taken away, seat-belts, helmets, smoking, were attacks by a minority on a smaller minority. They were lost by the majority being apathetic. "I'm not a smoker, I don't ride a MC, why should I care?" With in increasing polarization this will get worse, because the majority still doesn't understand that any freedom taken away from anybody ultimately erodes freedom for all.

But I'll keep fighting, sending letters, sending money, trying to find freedom loving candidates; until that freedom also disappears.


If they ever hold a democratic election to elect a President of the Planet, Mercnbeth gets my vote.


Why would anyone express such a sentiment?

No offense to Merc (or beth for that matter) but people, these are merely words on a screen. I realize that most of the people who've said this (and I've seen a few) probably aren't serious and thank heaven. Unless you actuall meet Merc (or anyone) in person and get to know them on a face to face basis, you're essentialy voting for the facet they want you to see.

People bitch and moan that the current leadership is dishonest or doesnt lead up to their expectations ... The thing is, leaders are only mere mortal men. They DO lie during their campaign but I think more often they merely present a facet of their personality that will be the most popular, the most liked, the most appealing, etc etc etc.

How is that really so different from how many people approach online interaction? You never see anyone online picking their nose or scratching their butt. You don't smell their stinky farts and its remarkably easy to hide your bad side. (Most people do seem to lack the ability to turn off the computer when they get upset but it *is* possible to do so.)

Just, food for thought.

PS

I like Mercnbeth too ... Most of the time. They have, on occassion, said things I disagree with but for the most part, yeah, they seem pretty cool. But no one is cool enough to be President of the World ... LOL

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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:26:33 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I like Mercnbeth too ... Most of the time.  But no one is cool enough to be President of the World ... LOL


DAMN! Does that mean I can't expect any contribution to my campaign?

quote:

People bitch and moan that the current leadership is dishonest or doesn't lead up to their expectations ... The thing is, leaders are only mere mortal men. They DO lie during their campaign but I think more often they merely present a facet of their personality that will be the most popular, the most liked, the most appealing, etc etc etc


I agree with you 100%

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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:26:41 AM   
kiska


Posts: 160
Joined: 11/17/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Oh and now so I don't totally hijack this thread ...

I would love to live in a world where we don't have to fight to get what we need or protect what we need. Unfortunately, we do live in such a world. Hell yes, I'd fight for my freedoms.

The thing is, my freedoms may not be your freedoms. You know?

One example ...

My ex is a smoker. He gets angry at the idea of not being free to smoke inside public buildings.

I'm a non smoker. I choose not to smoke so isn't it impeding on MY freedom NOT to smoke if I have to be in a building with those who do smoke?

Doesn't matter how great your air filtration system is, the toxins in that smoke will still cause some harm. If nothing else it makes my throat sore and my voice hoarse.

So, who's freedom should I fight for?

His or mine?

_____________________________

I speak my mind because it hurts to bite my tongue ...

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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:29:28 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I don't personally see it as wether or not I would fight for my "freedom"

What I see as more of an issue is what individuals determine as freedoms........aka rights.

That seems to be the issue that causes the most trouble.



I can satisfy myself that I might strive in some way for a freedom that I  think I'd like .......but I don't see ANYTHING as a *right*.

I don't have an *entitlement* to anything.   That just is not the way I perceive things.

If there's an *entitlement* .....who the hell is meant to oversee those things?

Life IS as it is........if we wish for certain freedoms then we shift and adjust to hopefully make them happen. Nothing , in my perception of life......is an entitlement.

agirl



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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:35:55 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kiska

Oh and now so I don't totally hijack this thread ...

I would love to live in a world where we don't have to fight to get what we need or protect what we need. Unfortunately, we do live in such a world. Hell yes, I'd fight for my freedoms.

The thing is, my freedoms may not be your freedoms. You know?

One example ...

My ex is a smoker. He gets angry at the idea of not being free to smoke inside public buildings.

I'm a non smoker. I choose not to smoke so isn't it impeding on MY freedom NOT to smoke if I have to be in a building with those who do smoke?

Doesn't matter how great your air filtration system is, the toxins in that smoke will still cause some harm. If nothing else it makes my throat sore and my voice hoarse.

So, who's freedom should I fight for?

His or mine?


Like everyone, you think about your perception, encorporate as well as you can, other's perceptions and you make a decision.

I smoke, but I am not going to argue endlessly against the overwhelming evidence and the distaste of non-smokers to NOT to have to put up with MY addiction. I don't want to inflict my personal  habit on anyone else..........*I* see that as bloody-minded and selfish.

agirl

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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:41:46 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		As someone that doesn't live in my country of birth and having spent the half of my life out of it, while I have emotional ties, I see where I live as more important.

I've been busy sending letters and lobbying most of my adult life but for a few years ago when I lived in a sleepy village for a couple of years and got sleepy myself. I really get pissed when I think I'm being trampled on or I see people being trampled on by the government taking the piss. I've been arrested three for protesting.

Years ago I was having a spat with the local government about racism in the block of apartments where I lived and the authority had posters all over the borough saying racism was unacceptable but the authority refused to do maintenance on a young mother's apartment in the apartment block I lived inand she was becoming distressed. Hell she paid her rent which wasn't cheap. I phoned the head of housing of the authority 30 times a day for about a fortnight. I told his secretary I will get to him. She replied 'Oh, you're getting to him.' In the end I went to the town hall to see him and refused to move until I saw him. I got arrested but the woman got the maintenance done she needed. I got a letter from the authority saying it was nothing to do with me but it was her turn on the list. As if. My wife at the time told me I take my righteous indignation too far. I do. I hate people being trampled on or taking advantage of. Hmm I can really go too far.

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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:43:12 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

 Blood MAY be the ultimate *price* but it matters not a fuck what KIND of blood it is or what soil it gets spilt on..


So the lives paid, the blood spilt, the limbs lost by your fellow countrymen when they fought under the auspices of Winston Churchill and the Crown thereby saving you from being born a Nazi have no meaning to you? What they gave freely and without hesitation so you may live in your accustomed lifestyle hold no value what so ever?

How poor a soul that you give them not the respect for their sacrifices on your behalf.........



_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 7:56:41 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

 Blood MAY be the ultimate *price* but it matters not a fuck what KIND of blood it is or what soil it gets spilt on..


So the lives paid, the blood spilt, the limbs lost by your fellow countrymen when they fought under the auspices of Winston Churchill and the Crown thereby saving you from being born a Nazi have no meaning to you? What they gave freely and without hesitation so you may live in your accustomed lifestyle hold no value what so ever?

How poor a soul that you give them not the respect for their sacrifices on your behalf.........




That's rot.

I am perfectly able to appreciate every life that was taken, lost or given. BE that life a German life a Jewish life a British life. There was suffering under EVERY banner, flag and religion........so NO.........I don't align myself with any allegiance for any suffering..........it was NOT for ME.

I was born here..........I can't claim any *pride* in the acts of valour by Englishmen.

Bollocks to the idea of *respect* .......should the young german lad that stood for what he did, not be appreciated JUST because I'm british.

I am sorrowful that MANKIND is this way ........I do not hold to MY breast the suffering of people that just happen to have been British.

agirl

Edited to add. ......Anything *I* do is for myself, my beliefs and my kin........I do not expect anyone else to share my ardence.


< Message edited by agirl -- 7/27/2006 8:00:24 AM >

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RE: Freedoms? Would you fight for yours? - 7/27/2006 8:13:17 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

 Blood MAY be the ultimate *price* but it matters not a fuck what KIND of blood it is or what soil it gets spilt on..


So the lives paid, the blood spilt, the limbs lost by your fellow countrymen when they fought under the auspices of Winston Churchill and the Crown thereby saving you from being born a Nazi have no meaning to you? What they gave freely and without hesitation so you may live in your accustomed lifestyle hold no value what so ever?

How poor a soul that you give them not the respect for their sacrifices on your behalf.........




Very few men died for freedom but for the political ambitions and corruption of their leaders. As my great uncle said, having fought in WWI, the biggest mistake they made as soldiers was not turning round and shooting the people that sent them to war. Without WWI, there would have been no WWII and so no need to fight for 'freedom'.

How many men that fought in the war of independence got a vote afterwards? Not many but the founding fathers consolidated their power. Now I wonder what that war was really about.

(in reply to twicehappy)
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