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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 8:30:21 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

The cladding was part insulation (apparently the tower was quite drafty) and part cosmetic, it's in one of the most expensive areas in London, a few of the rich people were having problems with looking at an ugly council building, however, considering the costs, somebody said a working fire alarm system and sprinkler system would have been about £300K why this was not in place in a building that houses hundreds of occupants is something they do have to investigate.

The previous Mayor of London, Boris Johnson (now our joke of a Foreign Secretary) however told somebody in the London Assembly to "get stuffed" when questions arose regarding him cutting down on fire services and raised issues regarding security problems, so I am hoping that he will face some questions, preferably in court.


OMFG.. this cladding shite is total garbage, it is actually a death trap.. so not only was it "a factor in past blazes, including three major high-rise fires in Dubai",..

"It also emerged the cladding used in Grenfell Tower was behind a rapidly spreading blaze at a tower block in Melbourne in 2014. An eighth-floor fire raced up 13 floors to the roof of the 21-storey building in 11 minutes. The spread was “directly associated” with the external cladding, said the fire brigade."

OMFG.. it took only 11 minutes to engulf 13 floors in fire.. and this happened in 2014 but they thought it was a good idea to keep using/selling this shite??? Watch all of them try passing the buck on this one... And those the rich people who were having problems with looking at an ugly council building, the/their view is much uglier now, aint it..

"Experts believe the void between the cladding on Grenfell Tower and the fabric of the building may have acted like “a chimney”, helping the rapid spread of the fire on the outside of the building.

The forensic architect Chris Miers told the trade magazine Construction Enquirer: “I was surprised to see the extent of fire and its rapid spread. The risk is if the void is not adequately subdivided it would act as a chimney.”

The magazine reports that the building was clad with “Aluminium Composite Material cassette rainscreen. This consists of two thin aluminium sheets sandwiching a core material. The panels are available with polyethylene or less flammable mineral cores.

“The cladding system employs a void behind the panel to vent moisture. An intumescent strip is designed to be installed at regular intervals to expand in the event of fire to become a cavity barrier.”

Experts including Miers have said the cladding will have had limited combustibility and fire safety regulations require a firebreak to exist horizontally between floors up to and including the cladding to prevent fire jumping levels.

Construction Enquirer is also reporting that the cladding contractor Harley Curtain Wall and contractor Rydon, which were responsible for the cladding on Grenfell Tower, also delivered a bigger project on the Chalcot Estate in north London where five blocks were reclad.

Harley Curtain Wall went into administration shortly after the Kensington refurbishment and Rydon has said “all required building control, fire regulation and health and safety standards” were met.

“In the UK cladding has to be of limited combustibility. I’m sure it will be questioned what exactly this means and what these types of cladding systems are adding to the fire load of a building,” Russ Timpson of the tall building fire safety network told Construction Inquirer. "

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/14/grenfell-tower-major-fire-london-apartment-block-white-city-latimer-road

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 8:38:35 AM   
WhoreMods


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Status: offline 		This cladding sounds a lot like those little cooking fire kits that squaddies throw away rather than use, doesn't it? Inflammable waxy synthetic stuff inside a metal envelope that acts like a chimney.

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 8:51:25 AM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		And then we have Dinosaur Junior, aka Rees-Mogg saying Britain should slash safety standards, seriously, you couldn't make it up

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 8:58:04 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

And then we have Dinosaur Junior, aka Rees-Mogg saying Britain should slash safety standards, seriously, you couldn't make it up

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html

To be fair, Cameron was only coming out with the referendum to try to get the EU parliament into withdrawing all of its health and safety and mployment legislation that applies to Britain in return for the country deigning to stay in the EEC. This has been a long standing ambition of his that went tits up when he underestimated just how many of his base loathe mainland Europe and letting in immigrants.

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 9:05:44 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		In November of last year, a group called the Grenfell Action Group, representing the tenants of the block posted the following notice on their website:
"It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders. We believe that the KCTMO are an evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia who have no business to be charged with the responsibility of looking after the every day management of large scale social housing estates and that their sordid collusion with the RBKC Council is a recipe for a future major disaster.

Unfortunately, the Grenfell Action Group have reached the conclusion that only an incident that results in serious loss of life of KCTMO residents will allow the external scrutiny to occur that will shine a light on the practices that characterise the malign governance of this non-functioning organisation. We believe that the KCTMO have ensured their ongoing survival by the use of proxy votes at their Annual General Meeting that see them returned with a mandate of 98% in favour of the continuation of their inept and highly dangerous management of our homes. It is no coincidence that the 98% is the same figure that is returned by the infamous Kim Jong-un of North Korea who claims mass popularity while reputedly enslaving the general population and starving the majority of his people to death.

It is our conviction that a serious fire in a tower block or similar high density residential property is the most likely reason that those who wield power at the KCTMO will be found out and brought to justice! The Grenfell Action Group believe that the KCTMO narrowly averted a major fire disaster at Grenfell Tower in 2013 when residents experienced a period of terrifying power surges that were subsequently found to have been caused by faulty wiring. We believe that our attempts to highlight the seriousness of this event were covered up by the KCTMO with the help of the RBKC Scrutiny Committee who refused to investigate the legitimate concerns of tenants and leaseholders.

We have blogged many times on the subject of fire safety at Grenfell Tower and we believe that these investigations will become part of damning evidence of the poor safety record of the KCTMO should a fire affect any other of their properties and cause the loss of life that we are predicting:

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/01/28/fire-safety-scandal-at-lancaster-west/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/more-on-fire-safety/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/another-fire-safety-scandal/

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/grenfell-tower-still-a-fire-risk/

In October 2015 a fire ripped through another KCTMO property, the 14 storey Adair Tower in North Kensington, causing mass panic and resulting in a number of residents taken to hospital suffering from smoke inhalation. It is reported that had it not been for the swift actions of the London Fire Brigade the consequences of this fire and potential loss of life could have been much worse.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11967592/50-rescued-from-burning-flats-in-Kensington.html

In the aftermath of the Adair Tower fire the London Fire Brigade found that the KCTMO had not been looking after the safety of residents properly and issued an Enforcement Order compelling them to improve the fire safety in the escape staircases and to provide self closing devices to all the tower block’s front doors. A further audit by the London Fire Brigade of the neighbouring Hazelwood Tower (located alongside Adair Tower) found similar breaches of health and safety legislation and an Enforcement Order was also issued for this property forcing the TMO to address the serious concerns of the Fire Brigade’s inspectors. What is shocking is that a decade ago a fatality occurred due to a fire at Hazelwood Tower and the Fire Investigation Team ordered that the grills on the fire escape staircase be covered over. This never happened and it is believed that the uncovered grills at Adair House (Hazelwood Tower’s twin block) acted like a chimney and were responsible for the accelerated spread of the fire and smoke damage.

In the last twenty years and despite the terrifying power surge incident in 2013 and recent fire at Adair Tower, the residents of Grenfell Tower have received no proper fire safety instructions from the KCTMO. Residents were informed by a temporary notice stuck in the lift and one announcement in a recent regeneration newsletter that they should remain in their flats in the event of fire. There are not and never have been any instructions posted in the Grenfell Tower noticeboard or on individual floor as to how residents should act in event of a fire. Anyone who witnessed the recent tower block fire at Shepherds Court, in nearby Shepherd’s Bush, will know that the advice to remain in our properties would have led to certain fatalities and we are calling on our landlord to re-consider the advice that they have so badly circulated.

The Grenfell Action Group predict that it won’t be long before the words of this blog come back to haunt the KCTMO management and we will do everything in our power to ensure that those in authority know how long and how appallingly our landlord has ignored their responsibility to ensure the heath and safety of their tenants and leaseholders. They can’t say that they haven’t been warned!"
https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

Sadly the "catastrophic event" the residents feared would happen has happened, with the loss of many lives, and many more lives destroyed. It is so distressing that the desperate warnings of impending catastrophe were ignored, and the residents' complaints were not acted upon by either the landlord or the council. The fact that the same landlords have a history of emergencies at other properties makes the position of the landlords and council even more questionable and tenuous.

PM May has announced a "full public inquiry" into the disaster. That body will no doubt examine all the evidence including the dire warnings cited above. I wonder will it have the courage to allot blame where it is deserved or will it serve a whitewashing function protecting the moneyed and powerful ... ? I hope not.

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 9:38:42 AM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		The more the story develops the more horrified I become

Death toll 17 now, probably less than 100

1. Why was there no central fire alarm system? Or if there was, why didn’t it work?

In account after account, residents said they were not alerted by a fire alarm.
Some told of being woken up by a neighbour banging on the door, others of getting a phone call from a worried relative who saw what was happening on the news.
A central fire alarm could have sounded a warning for to all residents as soon as the blaze was detected.

2. Was it right to advise residents to 'stay put'?

Residents at Grenfell say fire safety signs had recently been installed which advised them to 'stay put' if a blaze occurred anywhere other than in their own flat.
Many were told the same thing by fire operators when they dialled 999 to report the fire on Wednesday.
That's because experts usually expect fires in a tower block to be contained where they originate.
But clearly in this case, the fire was able to spread, and quickly.


6. Why was there no sprinkler system? wtf
Labour MP Jim Fitzpatrick - chairman of the all-party Parliamentary Fire Safety and Rescue Group - said the Government has resisted calls to install sprinkler systems in high-rise blocks in the wake of the Lakanal House tragedy.

Mr Fitzpatrick, who was a firefighter for 20 years, told LBC: "We've been pressing for fire sprinkler systems in buildings where we think it's appropriate - certainly over a height level and in places where there is vulnerability, care homes and in schools - and Government has been resisting that for some time."


10. Why wasn't government report on fire safety in tower blocks published?

In March this year, experts warned tower blocks were at risk because the government was delaying a review of building regulations.

Under current building regulations, exterior walls must be fire resistant.

But this doesn't apply to exterior cladding.

Some experts have called this a 'gaping hole' in fire safety laws.


The cladding was reportedly installed at Grenfell to improve the appearance of a dilapidated tower block constructed in 1974.

But exterior cladding can be highly combustible and has been linked to a number of fires in high-rise buildings.

During the 1990s, at least 30 fires were linked to cladding panels, mostly those on the exterior of buildings.

In 1999, a man died after a fire started on the fifth floor of Garnock Court, a 14-storey block of flats in Ayrshire, Scotland.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/10-questions-need-answers-after-10625223


< Message edited by WickedsDesire -- 6/15/2017 9:39:09 AM >

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 9:56:24 AM   
PeonForHer


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The usual wank is occurring. Reminiscent of a certain recurring debate that happens over the pond, one side is claiming the moral high ground by saying 'It's so inappropriate for people to be bringing politics into this debate. My thoughts and sympathies are with [etc etc] (as if the victims' families and friends give a flying fuck about said sympathies). Apparently, showing how much you can blubber is much more important than actually working out how to prevent such a disaster happening again.

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 12:30:42 PM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
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Status: offline 		I dont know enough about the legislation and which parties avoided which bits of legislation over the decades, overlooking the brexit EU law arguments and how we dont need to abide by Johhny foreigner laws no more.

What I read today The PM was there and was "shit" never spoke to anyone - how true that is ive no idea
The leader of the opposition was there, as was the mayor.

Shock now turns to anger - I cant blame them :(. I told you so is often a lesson learned harshly/brutally.

But it would appear there is something seriously wrong, and this is not an isolated occurence over the years. Looked like an oven to me, especially as Ive found out they used aluminium cladding (perhaps it was a composite dont know enough). But I am not going to forget the towering inferno - thats what it was. Nor the fireman 12 stories up on the ladder the whole building a conflagration, nor the reports of people being told to stay put. That cant be right they had no sprinkler systems?

H&S law I dont know enough and who, and whys, gets charged with manslaughter because that will happen. I expect that death toll to climb to over 50, I hope it remains unchanged but it will not.


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wE arE tHe voiCes,
We SAtuRaTe yOur aLPHA brain WAveS, ThIs is nOt A DrEAm The wiZaRd of Oz, shoES, CaLcuLUs, DECorAtiNG, FrIDGE SProcKeTs, be VeRy sCareDed – SLoBbers,We DeEManDErs Sloowee DAnCiNG, SmOOches – whisper whisper & CaAkEE

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 1:02:44 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

The usual wank is occurring. Reminiscent of a certain recurring debate that happens over the pond, one side is claiming the moral high ground by saying 'It's so inappropriate for people to be bringing politics into this debate. My thoughts and sympathies are with [etc etc] (as if the victims' families and friends give a flying fuck about said sympathies). Apparently, showing how much you can blubber is much more important than actually working out how to prevent such a disaster happening again.

We had a simular case in SF recently.
The building was only slightly worse than this one and had already been condemnded . People stiil lived there and the owner is in jail. Maybe you should consider that.

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 1:38:30 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

The usual wank is occurring. Reminiscent of a certain recurring debate that happens over the pond, one side is claiming the moral high ground by saying 'It's so inappropriate for people to be bringing politics into this debate. My thoughts and sympathies are with [etc etc] (as if the victims' families and friends give a flying fuck about said sympathies). Apparently, showing how much you can blubber is much more important than actually working out how to prevent such a disaster happening again.

We had a simular case in SF recently.
The building was only slightly worse than this one and had already been condemnded . People stiil lived there and the owner is in jail. Maybe you should consider that.

are you talking about the Oakland warehouse fire? http://www.sfchronicle.com/oakland-fire/
That is very different, it was a commercial building with part of it illegally converted into small residential units with no escape/window and they had a huge party there the night of the fire.. it shoulda been shut down by the city but many of the residents were homeless people, artists, etc.. Oakland city inspectors, etc turned a blind eye to it and (imo) they should be in jail too.
The London fire were all legal suites with (supposedly) all the inspections, modifications of the building all up to code, etc.. The owner of the tower is apparently a non-profit..

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 2:29:43 PM   
WickedsDesire


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Status: offline 		Some of you will not be aware, or fully aware, what happened in London

here is a clip it will cost you 1 minute to watch it

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 5:50:31 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

And then we have Dinosaur Junior, aka Rees-Mogg saying Britain should slash safety standards, seriously, you couldn't make it up

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html

To be fair, Cameron was only coming out with the referendum to try to get the EU parliament into withdrawing all of its health and safety and mployment legislation that applies to Britain in return for the country deigning to stay in the EEC. This has been a long standing ambition of his that went tits up when he underestimated just how many of his base loathe mainland Europe and letting in immigrants.


Oh yes, those terrible safety regulations, we want the right to be electrecuted by our toaster or kettle...

Seriously, it would have been £5K difference to get the non flammable cladding...

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/875481687991488517

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 5:56:05 PM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
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Status: offline 		I think the video speaks for itself malady and regulations

I am also led to believe it was £2000 a month for a house in that death trap :(

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 6:46:10 PM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
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Status: offline 		all paid for by the the tax payer to the corrupt landlords and governments who enable that complete pish -the chances of me jesting regarding this are zero

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 7:15:18 PM   
PyrotheClown


Posts: 1950
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Status: offline 		Huh,
So yer telling me that
Wrapping the outside of my building in a petroleum product conveniently packaged in it's own aluminium heat shoot,
Waffling on whether or not to upgrade my buildings outdated and dysfunctional indoor fire sprinklers and not providing my tenets with any procedural escape plan in
case of an emergency is a bad idea.....


Holy fuck....are heads gonna roll or what.....

How much you wanna bet some one is going to jail for this.

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 10:37:09 PM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
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Status: offline 		Low income residents with no influence.

Landlord politicians looking for less regulation of the housing market.

I'm sure we will learn more about the technical problems that led to the fire spreading so rapidly but it doesn't take a genius to work it out the political and social equation that led to this.

We should value people's lives when they are still alive. Over 100 dead is an expensive lesson to learn.

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 10:40:00 PM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
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Status: offline 		£2000 a month are you slow?

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 10:42:23 PM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
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Status: offline 		read everything I typed its much worse - and yes heads will roll - and the death toll will climb :(

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We SAtuRaTe yOur aLPHA brain WAveS, ThIs is nOt A DrEAm The wiZaRd of Oz, shoES, CaLcuLUs, DECorAtiNG, FrIDGE SProcKeTs, be VeRy sCareDed – SLoBbers,We DeEManDErs Sloowee DAnCiNG, SmOOches – whisper whisper & CaAkEE

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/15/2017 10:54:34 PM   
WickedsDesire


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Status: offline 		London fire: Tower victims 'may never be identified'

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wE arE tHe voiCes,
We SAtuRaTe yOur aLPHA brain WAveS, ThIs is nOt A DrEAm The wiZaRd of Oz, shoES, CaLcuLUs, DECorAtiNG, FrIDGE SProcKeTs, be VeRy sCareDed – SLoBbers,We DeEManDErs Sloowee DAnCiNG, SmOOches – whisper whisper & CaAkEE

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RE: London fire: What we know so far about Grenfell Tower - 6/16/2017 2:38:25 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown

Huh,
So yer telling me that
Wrapping the outside of my building in a petroleum product conveniently packaged in it's own aluminium heat shoot,
Waffling on whether or not to upgrade my buildings outdated and dysfunctional indoor fire sprinklers and not providing my tenets with any procedural escape plan in
case of an emergency is a bad idea.....


Holy fuck....are heads gonna roll or what.....

How much you wanna bet some one is going to jail for this.


I'm totally baffled, you know in about every country in the world you would have angry people demanding that heads are going to roll, here some people go "Oh let's wait, it's a tragedy, we must not be disrespectful" pretty much what the NRA does after every mass shooting, here they put an MP in charge of finding out what happened who voted against making rented properties fit for human habitation, the former housing minister is now the chief of staff of the joke who is our PM.

The problem is that it's not just THAT council block, there are about 700 of those blocks in London, a woman said they are like pigeon holes, people are stuffed in, the conditions are horrible, a lot of them are death traps in case of fire.

The company who actually did the cladding has a very shoddy record, went bankrupt and the owner bought back his company for next to nothing and continued under another name, yesterday they destroyed all their files regarding the tower block...

A couple of years ago it was a civilised country, a bit behind the times but you could see it as quaint, now it has turned into a banana republic but without bananas, corruption, poverty, xenophobia... You should see some of the comments, because a lot of the people living in the tower block were black or Asian, people automatically assume they are Muslims, hate groups like Britain First make horrendous comments, some conservative cheered actually about the fact that a mother lost 2 children and said she has more and she will just get some more from different fathers (he simply assumed) so why does she cry... It's disgusting.

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