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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 10:03:39 AM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Not here to fight, lovely weather
Enjoy the day


It rained a little last night, always welcome here in Colorado and now it is a beautiful day and everything is green.
Which reminds me I should probably take my motorcycle out and exercise it some.
Likewise, everyone enjoy the day.


The horrific things I have "quickly "read NUMEROUS times, were not stated on this thread.
I say quickly, because I have learned how to read selectively.
Threads drift, so what?
People don't go off-topic on message boards ?

I have read many vile and hateful anti Christian comments and " jokes", on here for years.
Again-threads drift, the OP is about creationism falling into the dumpster.
I think creationism and evolution should both be taught in schools.
Enjoy the day and please be careful on your motorcycle.
There are just too many distracted and horrible drivers out there.
✌️

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/5/2017 10:08:39 AM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 10:20:48 AM   
PyrotheClown


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So miles,I rarely get to converse with some one with yer...em....view point

You do realize that you evolved,right?
While you were a fetus,you had gills and a tail.
We humans might not metamorphosise like a butterfly,but in our short life time's,our changing biology is littered with evidences of evolution.
We have vestigial bit's and pieces all over us.

Not enough for ya,how bout the complete transformation happening all around us
Do you think the myriad amounts of specialized breeds of dogs & cat's just poofed into existence?
Do you realize that modern domesticated corn & banana varieties can't even reproduce without human intervention,because we bred and shaped them over generations to better serve our own needs,they no more resemble their wild ancestors as we resemble Bonobo's?


Or do you see all the overwhelming evidence and think"that's nice and all,but it aint what mah and pah taught me,so it's all a load of shit"?

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 10:31:41 AM   
MercTech


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Meh, the crux of theology and philosophy is to try and figure out the why of the universe. Science catalogs the how of the universe. If the two conflict one of the proponents of the conflict has insufficient understanding of the issue.

Or to spin the idea another way; fanaticism, no matter the cause, is stupid and evil in result.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 10:41:47 AM   
PyrotheClown


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It's just...when I read something stupid like"no one's seen evolution",my brain starts screaming "Yes,yes you've seen it!It's all around you.Polar bears and brown bears are making a new sub species RIGHT NOW.Dwarf cat's exist because just a few years ago they were bred into existence. Doctor's and scientist's are Freaking the fuck out because bacteria is evolving resistances to modern antibiotics!"

It's like Boko Haram rejecting western ideas of the water cycle.They literally believe that physics don't exist and our home grown fundamental fruit cake's don't see the parallels ...but here's the difference, Most people in rural Nigeria don't have a highspeed information gathering machine in their front pocket...

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 10:48:29 AM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Meh, the crux of theology and philosophy is to try and figure out the why of the universe. Science catalogs the how of the universe. If the two conflict one of the proponents of the conflict has insufficient understanding of the issue.

Or to spin the idea another way; fanaticism, no matter the cause, is stupid and evil in result.


So why not teach both?
This is the age of light speed information.
One could easily argue either side, and find "sources" to support either side untill infinity.
Why not teach both, and let children, students, people decide what they want to believe in?


< Message edited by Marini -- 8/5/2017 10:49:04 AM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 10:53:57 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Meh, the crux of theology and philosophy is to try and figure out the why of the universe. Science catalogs the how of the universe. If the two conflict one of the proponents of the conflict has insufficient understanding of the issue.

Or to spin the idea another way; fanaticism, no matter the cause, is stupid and evil in result.


So why not teach both?
This is the age of light speed information.
One could easily argue either side, and find "sources" to back you up, until infinity.
Why not teach both, and let children, students, people decide what they want to believe in?


Because one can be more or less proven, and has an awful lot of evidence to back it up, while the other doesn't?
If people want to use some argument about equal time as an excuse to teach religion in science classes, then the same approach should also be taken to bible classes (or whatever the hell RE's called these days): any time something that's obviously absurd is mentioned in the good book during one of these clases, give equal time to sceptics and unbelievers to discuss the other side of the issue.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 10:59:56 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Because one can be more or less proven



the only thing atheists have proven is that they are lying since they have posited no proof what so ever.


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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 11:03:19 AM   
Marini


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Sounds fair, I don't believe religion should be taught in public schools.
Explaining both sides is fair, if students want to learn more, they can
take a class in Creationism or Evolution.

Take Creationism 101 or Evolution 101, and go for it

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/5/2017 11:15:18 AM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to WhoreMods)
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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 11:27:07 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I must say I was quite surprised at Marini's accusations coming on the heels of my conversation with MilesnMiles, which was conducted, I thought, in a most civilized and respectful manner by both gentlemen. We were absolutely charming and friendly to one another with nary a personal remark. I thought Marini's comments were very inappropriate in that context.
True but did I note just a wee bit of sarcasm?


No, Miles, shame on you if you thought I was being sarcastic about the nature of our conversation, whilst Marini, who I always regarded as a decent person jumps in to the middle of our conversation with her complaints about ugly harassment of Christians, not a one to be found in our conversation. To say I am disappointed with her behavior hardly portrays my feeling. I shall be a gentleman and not give it full expression.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 11:33:06 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

Because one can be more or less proven



the only thing atheists have proven is that they are lying since they have posited no proof what so ever.

Really?
Are you seriously arguing that there is no proof for the theory of evolution?
Still, I suppose it's no more ridiculous than your contention that the population of Israel aren't really jews because they're zionists...

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 11:34:06 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I believe that is basically what I was pointing out, that if you use the “first cause fallacy” for Religion then you have to realize that the same thing applies to Evolution.

That would be true if Evolutionists were making a statement about the beginning of matter/energy, the beginning of the universe, or the beginning of life on this planet, but Evolutionists are not addressing those issues; they are simply addressing the perceived varieties and assumed morphological and physiological changes that have occurred. All claim to the beginning of the universe was presented by you while I simply countered it outside of the Evolutionary model. Darwin said nothing about the beginning of life on earth. That is why Creationism cannot replace Evolution. They are not comments on the same thing.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 11:35:57 AM   
Marini


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This is the 3rd time I have addressed this issue on here.
I clearly stated, the awful comments I have read on here for YEARS, was
not the case in this thread.
Threads drift and people go off topic all the time.
I have not noticed people being so indignant about threads drifting before,
but I am going to start watching.
Threads often drift a bit/off the immediate topic.

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/5/2017 12:04:43 PM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 11:36:24 AM   
bounty44


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"From Evolution to Creation: A Personal Testimony"

by Gary Parker, Ed.D.

quote:

Moderator: "Dr. Parker, I understand that when you started teaching college biology you were an enthusiastic evolutionist."

Yes, indeed. The idea of evolution was very satisfying to me. It gave me a feeling of being one with the huge, evolving universe continually progressing toward grander things. Evolution was really my religion, a faith commitment and a complete world-and-life view that organized everything else for me, and I got quite emotional when evolution was challenged.

As a religion, evolution answered my questions about God, sin, and salvation. God was unnecessary, or at least did no more than make the particles and processes from which all else mechanistically followed. "Sin" was only the result of animal instincts that had outlived their usefulness, and salvation involved only personal adjustment, enlightened self-interest, and perhaps one day the benefits of genetic engineering.

With no God to answer to, no God with a purpose for mankind, I saw our destiny in our own hands. Tied in with the idea of inevitable evolutionary progress, this was a truly thrilling idea and the part of evolution I liked best.

"Did your faith in evolution affect your classroom teaching?"

It surely did. In my early years of teaching at both the high school and college levels, I worked hard to convince my students that evolution was true. I even had students crying in class. I thought I was teaching objective science, not religion, but I was very consciously trying to get students to bend their religious beliefs to evolution. In fact, a discussion with high school teachers in a graduate class I was assisting included just that goal: encouraging students to adapt their religious beliefs to the concept of evolution!

"I thought you weren't supposed to teach religion in the public school system."

Well, maybe you can't teach the Christian religion, but there is no trouble at all in teaching the evolutionary religion. I've done it myself, and I've watched the effects that accepting evolution has on a person's thought and life. Of course, I once thought that effect was good, "liberating the mind from the shackles of revealed religion" and making a person's own opinions supreme.

"Since you found evolution such a satisfying religion and enjoyed teaching it to others, what made you change your mind?"

I've often marvelled that God could change anyone as content as I was, especially with so many religious leaders (including two members of the Bible department where I once taught!) actually supporting evolution over creation. But through a Bible study group my wife and I joined at first for purely social reasons, God slowly convinced me to lean not on my own opinions or those of other human authorities, but in all my ways to acknowledge Him and to let Him direct my paths. It is a blessed experience that gives me an absolute reference point and a truly mindstretching eternal perspective.

"Did your conversion to Christianity then make you a creationist?"

No, at least not at first. Like so many before and since, I simply combined my new-found Christian religion with the "facts" of science and became a theistic evolutionist and then a progressive creationist. I thought the Bible told me who created, and that evolution told me how.

But then I began to find scientific problems with the evolutionary part, and theological problems with the theistic part. I still have a good many friends who believe in theistic evolution or progressive creation, but I finally had to give it up.

"What theological problems did you find with theistic evolution?"

Perhaps the key point centered around the phrase, "very good." At the end of each creation period (except the second) God said that His creation was good. At the end of the sixth period He said that all His works of creation were very good.

Now all the theistic evolutionists and progressive creationists I know, including myself at one time, try to fit "geologic time" and the fossil record into the creation periods. But regardless of how old they are, the fossils show the same things that we have on earth today -- famine, disease, disaster, extinction, floods, earthquakes, etc. So if fossils represent stages in God's creative activity, why should Christians oppose disease and famine or help preserve an endangered species? If the fossils were formed during the creation week, then all these things would be very good.

When I first believed in evolution, I had sort of a romantic idea about evolution as unending progress. But in the closing paragraphs of the Origin of Species, Darwin explained that evolution, the "production of higher animals," was caused by "the war of nature, from famine and death." Does "the war of nature, from famine and death" sound like the means God would have used to create a world all very good?

In Genesis 3, Romans 8 and many other passages, we learn that such negative features were not part of the world that God created, but entered only after Adam’s sin. By ignoring this point, either intentionally or unintentionally, theistic evolutionists and progressive creationists come into conflict with the whole pattern of Scripture: the great themes of Creation, the Fall, and Redemption -- how God made the world perfect and beautiful; how man's sin brought a curse upon the world; and how Christ came to save us from our sins and to restore all things.

"With the Scriptures so plain throughout, are there still many Christians who believe in theistic evolution or progressive creation?"

Yes, there am. Of course, I can't speak for all of them, but I can tell you the problems I had to overcome before I could give up theistic evolution myself. First, I really hate to argue or take sides. When I was a theistic evolutionist I didn't have to argue with anybody. I just chimed in smiling at the end of an argument with something like, "Well, the important thing is to remember that God did it."

Then there is the matter of intellectual pride. Creationists are often looked down upon as ignorant throw-backs to the nineteenth century or worse, and I began to think of all the academic honors I had, and to tell you the truth, I didn't want to face that academic ridicule.

Finally, I, like many Christians, was honestly confused about the Biblical issues. As I told you, I first became a creationist while teaching at a Christian college. Believe it or not, I got into big trouble with the Bible Department. As soon as I started teaching creation instead of evolution, the Bible Department people challenged me to a debate. The Bible Department defended evolution, and two other scientists and I defended creation!

That debate pointed out how religious evolution really is, and the willingness of leaders to speak out in favor of evolution makes it harder for the average Christian to take a strong stand on creation. To tell you the truth, I don't think I would have had the courage, especially as a professor of biology, to give up evolution or theistic evolution without finding out that the bulk of scientific data actually argues against evolution.

"In that sense, then, it was really the scientific data that completed your conversion from evolution, through theistic evolution and progressive creation to Biblical, scientific creationism?"

Yes, it was. At first I was embarrassed to be both a creationist and a science professor, and I wasn't really sure what to do with the so-called "mountains of evidence" for evolution. A colleague in biology, Allen Davis, introduced me to Morris' and Whitcomb's famous book, The Genesis Flood. At first I reacted strongly against the book, using all the evolutionist arguments I knew so well. But at that crucial time, the Lord provided me with a splendid Science Faculty Fellowship award from the N.S.F., so I resolved to pursue doctoral studies in biology, while also adding a cognate in geology to check out some of the creationist arguments first hand. To my surprise, and eventually to my delight, just about every course I took was full of more and more problems in evolution, and more and more support for the basic points of Biblical creationism outlined in The Genesis Flood and Morris' later book, Scientific Creationism.

"Can you give us some examples?"

Yes indeed. One of the tensest moments for me came when we started discussing uranium-lead and other radiometric methods for estimating the age of the earth. I just knew all the creationists' arguments would be shot down and crumbled, but just the opposite happened.

In one graduate class, the professor told us we didn't have to memorize the dates of the geologic systems since they were far too uncertain and conflicting. Then in geophysics we went over all of the assumptions that go into radiometric dating. Afterwards, the professor said something like this, "If a fundamentalist ever got hold of this stuff, he would make havoc out of the radiometric dating system. So, keep the faith." That's what he told us, "keep the faith." If it was a matter of keeping faith, I now had another faith I preferred to keep.

"Are there other examples like that?"

Lots of them. One concerns the word paraconformity. In The Genesis Flood, I had heard that paraconformity was a word used by evolutionary geologists for fossil systems out of order, but with no evidence of erosion or overthrusting. My heart really started pounding when paraconformities and other unconformities came up in geology class. What did the professor say? Essentially the same thing as Morris and Whitcomb. He presented paraconformities as a real mystery and something very difficult to explain in evolutionary or uniformitarian terms. We even had a field trip to study paraconformities that emphasized the point.

So again, instead of challenging my creationist ideas, all the geology I was learning in graduate school was supporting it. I even discussed a creationist interpretation of paraconformities with the professor, and I finally found myself discussing further evidence of creation with fellow graduate students and others.

"What do you mean by ‘evidence of creation?’"

All of us can recognize objects that man has created, whether paintings, sculptures, or just a Coke bottle. Because the pattern of relationships in those objects is contrary to relationships that time, chance, and natural physical processes would produce, we know an outside creative agent was involved. I began to see the same thing in a study of living things, especially in the area of my major interest, molecular biology.

All living things depend upon a working relationship between inheritable nucleic acid molecules, like DNA, and proteins, the chief structural and functional molecules. To make proteins, living creatures use a sequence of DNA bases to line up a sequence of amino acid Rgroups. But the normal reactions between DNA and proteins are the "wrong" ones, and act with time and chance to disrupt living systems. Just as phosphorus, glass, and copper will work together in a television set only if properly arranged by human engineers, so DNA and protein will work in productive harmony only if properly ordered by an outside creative agent.

I presented the biochemical details of this DNA-protein argument to a group of graduate students and professors, including my professor of molecular biology. At the end of the talk, my professor offered no criticism of the biology or biochemistry I had presented. She just said that she didn't believe it because she didn't believe there was anything out there to create life. But if your faith permits belief in a Creator you can see the evidence of creation in the things that have been made (as Paul implies in Rom. 1:18-20).

"Has creationism influenced your work as a scientist and as a teacher?"

Yes, in many positive ways. Science is based on the assumption of an understandable orderliness in the operation of nature, and the Scriptures guarantee both that order and man's ability to understand it, infusing science with enthusiastic hope and richer meaning. Furthermore, creationists are able to recognize both spontaneous and created (i.e., internally and externally determined) patterns of order, and this opened my eyes to a far greater range of theories and models to deal with the data from such diverse fields as physiology, systematics, and ecology.

Creationism has certainly made the classroom a much more exciting place, both for me and my students. So much of biology touches on key ethical issues, such as genetic engineering, the ecological crisis, reproduction and development, and now I have so much more to offer than just my own opinions and the severely limited perspectives of other human authorities. And, of course, on the basic matter of origins, my students and I have the freedom to discuss both evolution and creation, a freedom tragically denied to most young people in our schools today.

Creationists have to pay the price of academic ridicule and occasional personal attacks, but these are nothing compared to the riches of knowledge and wisdom that are ours through Christ! I only wish that more scientists, science teachers, and science students could share the joy and challenge of looking at God's world through God's eyes.

* Dr. Gary E. Parker did his doctoral work in biology and geology. He is the author of five widely used programmed instruction books in biology.


http://www.icr.org/article/from-evolution-creation-personal-testimony/

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 11:43:55 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

still one more time for all you comrades, not to mention the pseudo-intellectual snobs:

evolution is an atheistic religion masquerading as science.

in terms of the "scientific" rigor with which things are looked at, there does not have to be a difference between the two.

evolution denies a creator from the beginning. creationism either presupposes one, or at least allows for one.

however, evolutionists continue to believe as they do IN SPITE of having no evidence and in the face of an abundance of evidence that might steer a more open minded person towards a creator.


neither Darwin nor any other Evolutionist, when speaking purely of evolution, have every denied a creator. The discipline of evolution does not dwell on the creation of living things. Only creationists have made that spurious comparison in an attempt to get creationism inside the biology classroom door.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 11:51:24 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

And although at this time it does seem that the comparison is “far beyond the pale”, I feel that one day Astrology and Evolution will be put in the same category.

What you feel, sir should have little import in an intellectual debate.
That you enjoy ice cream or not is beside the point here.

quote:

I do not “debate against evolution to cover over the complete lack of credibility of creationism”; I find Creation to be credible, it is Evolution that I don’t find to be credible.


Apples and oranges, my friend. Evolution does not speak of BEGINNINGS. That is what is so silly about any argument by a creationist against evolution. The only thing you can argue about is whether lfe forms have changed and the record of the rocks gives ample evidence they have.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 11:51:53 AM   
Marini


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...double post on thread drift....



< Message edited by Marini -- 8/5/2017 11:55:01 AM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 416
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 12:00:33 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

This is the 3rd time I have addressed this issue on here.
I clearly stated, the awful comments I have read on here for YEARS, was
not the case in this thread.
Threads drift and people go off topic all the time.
I have not noticed people being so indignant about threads drifting before,
but I am going to start watching.
Threads drift

If it was not the case on this thread why did you interject it? Your doing so was quite insulting, Marini!

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 12:05:56 PM   
Marini


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Vincent is it was not aimed at you, or any specific person.
I was stating what I have seen, very often on here.

I had- a moment.
It was not aimed at you, I am sorry you took it personally.

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/5/2017 12:06:36 PM >


_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 418
RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 12:49:55 PM   
vincentML


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Miles, this is the sarcasm emoji . . . .

I use it when I am being sarcastic.

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vML

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RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster - 8/5/2017 1:21:23 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Vincent is it was not aimed at you, or any specific person.
I was stating what I have seen, very often on here.

I had- a moment.
It was not aimed at you, I am sorry you took it personally.

Well, you did a pretty damn good job in blowing up this thread. Thanks, oh so much, Marini

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