RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster

RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (Full Version)

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tamaka -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/9/2017 8:43:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick Alright, cunt-for-brains God botherer. Explain to me why it was "good" that my daughter died just after her 1st birthday. How is a world with meningococcus in it "good" for humanity? How is having an infant killed by a bacterium what is best for humanity? Honestly, it sounds like you would rather just be mad at God than understand why these things happen but I will give you something to think about. You seem to think that the resurrection of Jesus is mythology and has nothing to do with the message of Christianity but I tell you that the resurrection is a major theme of Christianity and that Jesus’ resurrection is proof and a guarantee of a greater resurrection to come. Yes... it's also a bunch of BS.

Tkman117 -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/9/2017 8:44:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick Alright, cunt-for-brains God botherer. Explain to me why it was "good" that my daughter died just after her 1st birthday. How is a world with meningococcus in it "good" for humanity? How is having an infant killed by a bacterium what is best for humanity? Honestly, it sounds like you would rather just be mad at God than understand why these things happen but I will give you something to think about. You seem to think that the resurrection of Jesus is mythology and has nothing to do with the message of Christianity but I tell you that the resurrection is a major theme of Christianity and that Jesus’ resurrection is proof and a guarantee of a greater resurrection to come. You can't have proof without evidence, and saying the words in the bible are a form of evidence that Christ was resurrected is no different from saying Star Wars is evidence that Jedi are real or that the Harry Potter series is evidence that magic and the existence of Voldemort is real.

Wayward5oul -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/9/2017 9:11:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick Alright, cunt-for-brains God botherer. Explain to me why it was "good" that my daughter died just after her 1st birthday. How is a world with meningococcus in it "good" for humanity? How is having an infant killed by a bacterium what is best for humanity? Honestly, it sounds like you would rather just be mad at God than understand why these things happen but I will give you something to think about. You seem to think that the resurrection of Jesus is mythology and has nothing to do with the message of Christianity but I tell you that the resurrection is a major theme of Christianity and that Jesus’ resurrection is proof and a guarantee of a greater resurrection to come. There is no "proof" evident. We Christians are saved through our faith, and "faith" is beliefnwithout proof.

Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/9/2017 9:37:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: MilesnSmiles quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle True there have been and still are some religions and religiously-motivated folks who have stood tall for human rights and freedoms. But there has been a lot more that have sided with the status quo in resisting progressive changes, or even actively opposed liberation movements and/or progressive changes of various kinds. Interestingly the Bible points out that there would be many who would say they were serving God but that only a few would actually be accepted as doing so. Perhaps one of these “small” groups is the “true” religion and the rest of the religions are weeds that have grown up amongst the wheat and are not representative of what God had in mind. This is a textbook example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman quote: MilesnSmiles quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The records of the larger established churches has been particularly poor, unless the regime in question is actively implementing programs that attack the core beliefs of those religions, such as happened in Eastern Europe under communist rule. The records of many churches on womens' and/or gay issues are especially reprehensible, and continues to be in many cases. Large numbers of churches continue to preach that homosexuality is a moral and mental disorder, a sinful abomination. Speaking from a hypothetical viewpoint, if there is a God who created man would he not know whether something was good or not for mankind? And would not “his religion” support that view? This is such a silly point to make. If there is a God who knows what is good for mankind, why then would such a God create a virus that can only live in the eyes of infants, eating their eyes and blinding the poor things. I cannot think of any benevolent reason for such a creation, but if you believe God created the world, then you might like to advance a reason why a God would do such an evil destructive thing. quote: MillesnSmiles quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Even on issues where the moral high ground was absolutely clear, the records of religions is mixed. For instance, the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa preached that apartheid was supported by the Bible. Many southern Protestant churches in the USA actively and openly supported the retention of Jim Crow laws and racial segregation. The ongoing Biblically-inspired support for Israeli aggressions, ethnic cleansing and apartheid from the US's 'Christian Zionist' sects is another case in point. Again, as I pointed out, there may be a lot of “fool’s gold” out there and just because everybody seems to think it is the real thing, it is not. Pointing out that “fool’s gold” doesn’t act like real “gold” doesn’t prove that real the “gold” is “fool’s gold” as well. You really like the No True Scotsman fallacy don't you? But regardless of how often you resort to using this fallacious argument it remains a fallacy. quote: MilesnSmiles quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle To sum it up, the record of religions and the religious in supporting human rights liberty and political freedom has been mixed - at best religions have helped lead the struggle for freedom but at worst the records of some religions and religious folk has been woeful, truly lamentable. What would you say prejudice is? Isn’t it when a whole group is judged for what some have done and not for what they have done themselves. Let me make another hypothetical, what if God exists and there is another powerful “super being” that opposes him and that other “super being” wants no one to find their way to God? Wouldn’t one of the best things to do be, making hundreds if not thousands of other religions, all calling themselves the "true religion", to stand beside the “true religion” and using them to make all religions look so bad, so that most people would give up even trying to look for God or at least for the "true religion"? And we are back to your old faithful, the No True Scotsman fallacy again ... To sum it up all you are offering is a mixture of fallacies and self serving hypotheticals. If you are persuaded by such flimsy nonsense, that's your choice. But I hope you can see why it's too much of a stretch to expect others to be similarly persuaded. Might I suggest that you learn what the No True Scotsman fallacy actually is and come back when you have a grasp on what logic fallacies are and how to apply them to what has been said to you.

vincentML -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 6:56:40 AM)
quote: And we are back to your old faithful, the No True Scotsman fallacy again ... To sum it up all you are offering is a mixture of fallacies and self serving hypotheticals. If you are persuaded by such flimsy nonsense, that's your choice. But I hope you can see why it's too much of a stretch to expect others to be similarly persuaded. Might I suggest that you learn what the No True Scotsman fallacy actually is and come back when you have a grasp on what logic fallacies are and how to apply them to what has been said to you. Whatever fallacy bullshit you are arguing about there really is no answer for the monstrous estimate that 7.6 million innocent children age five or less die terrible deaths each year from disease and natural catastrophes created by the beneficent [8\|] omnipotent [8\|] merciful [8\|] intelligent [8\|] Designer. How do you explain the horror visited upon innocent children by the cruel, evil, heartless, murderous Intelligent Designer, Miles? You are also invited to respond to my post a #614

tamaka -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 9:20:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick Alright, cunt-for-brains God botherer. Explain to me why it was "good" that my daughter died just after her 1st birthday. How is a world with meningococcus in it "good" for humanity? How is having an infant killed by a bacterium what is best for humanity? Honestly, it sounds like you would rather just be mad at God than understand why these things happen but I will give you something to think about. You seem to think that the resurrection of Jesus is mythology and has nothing to do with the message of Christianity but I tell you that the resurrection is a major theme of Christianity and that Jesus’ resurrection is proof and a guarantee of a greater resurrection to come. There is no "proof" evident. We Christians are saved through our faith, and "faith" is beliefnwithout proof. Hmmmm... burn in hell for eternity or believe. That's not faith. That's trauma.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 10:08:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: The central message of Christianity is that if you want to go to heaven when you die, you have to believe that Jesus took the punishment for your sins by dying on the cross for you. And where did Jesus say any of that? He didn't...[they] do. " I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me"... is just one instance i can quote from the top of my head. Again, that is from John, and John is all about the divinity of Jesus.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 10:10:47 AM)
quote: Come on now, is that all you have left ? I have much left, but given your demonstrated lack of understanding of the subject matter, it would be wasted. Go study the topics for a year or two and then come back, and I will explain the rest to you.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 10:18:40 AM)
quote: Honestly, it sounds like you would rather just be mad at God than understand why these things happen but I will give you something to think about. Not in the slightest, God is utterly unaware of me, my daughter, or any of us. Now that being said, I am still waiting for your answer here, your standard dodge will not work with me. You said God knows what is best, well then explain to me what is best about my daughter dying, since the obscenity you worship is supposedly all up close and personal, why did he make viruses that will kill infants? Come on Captain God-Botherer, defend the revolting creature you worship, tell us how he loves us all so much he kills us off prematurely in agony by the millions. Explain this all-encompassing benevolence for us Christ-lover, explain it to us, show us the love and mercy you claim he is made of, this murdering tyrant who would condemn anybody who does not grovel before him to an eternity of torment. God is not obscene, but your god most certainly is. quote: You seem to think that the resurrection of Jesus is mythology Because it is quote: and has nothing to do with the message of Christianity I did not say that. Pay attention quote: but I tell you that the resurrection is a major theme of Christianity Of course it is, nobody has denied or questioned that. Again, pay attention. quote: and that Jesus’ resurrection is proof and a guarantee of a greater resurrection to come. It is neither. If his resurrection is so very special, then why wasn't Lazarus' resurrection equally important. What was it about Jesus' resurrection that makes it so very special? Because it is in the very ancient middle eastern tradition of the risen god, the god who sacrifices himself and rises from the dead. By claiming Jesus rose from the dead, he is tied to the other self-sacrificial saviours that have permeated middle eastern mythology from the very beginning. There is nothing new or original in the Jesus story itself, it is all just recycled mythology that had been floating around that part of the world for thousands of years.

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 12:32:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick Alright, cunt-for-brains God botherer. Explain to me why it was "good" that my daughter died just after her 1st birthday. How is a world with meningococcus in it "good" for humanity? How is having an infant killed by a bacterium what is best for humanity? Honestly, it sounds like you would rather just be mad at God than understand why these things happen but I will give you something to think about. You seem to think that the resurrection of Jesus is mythology and has nothing to do with the message of Christianity but I tell you that the resurrection is a major theme of Christianity and that Jesus’ resurrection is proof and a guarantee of a greater resurrection to come. Yes... it's also a bunch of BS. Well she can't really be mad at god (or anybody) because [he] had nothing to do with it and because [he]...doesn't exist.

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 12:35:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka quote: ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick Alright, cunt-for-brains God botherer. Explain to me why it was "good" that my daughter died just after her 1st birthday. How is a world with meningococcus in it "good" for humanity? How is having an infant killed by a bacterium what is best for humanity? Honestly, it sounds like you would rather just be mad at God than understand why these things happen but I will give you something to think about. You seem to think that the resurrection of Jesus is mythology and has nothing to do with the message of Christianity but I tell you that the resurrection is a major theme of Christianity and that Jesus’ resurrection is proof and a guarantee of a greater resurrection to come. There is no "proof" evident. We Christians are saved through our faith, and "faith" is beliefnwithout proof. Hmmmm... burn in hell for eternity or believe. That's not faith. That's trauma. A sadistic god for his masochistic believers.

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 12:40:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick Because it is in the very ancient middle eastern tradition of the risen god, the god who sacrifices himself and rises from the dead. By claiming Jesus rose from the dead, he is tied to the other self-sacrificial saviours that have permeated middle eastern mythology from the very beginning. There is nothing new or original in the Jesus story itself, it is all just recycled mythology that had been floating around that part of the world for thousands of years. They aren't paying attention or really care at all. I've been trying to tell them this for a while now. I think I saw once that there were 12 Jesus-like stories floating around in other myths...all predating even the Romans.

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 12:51:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: It's ALL mythology and I don't believe any of it. There are a couple of problems with that. First of which, if you say "just mythology", then you don't understand the cultural and personal necessity of a mythology, and second, it is not ALL mythology. That is what you need a comparative religion course for, to learn to differentiate between the mythology and the philosophy. If I understand you, I'll get my philosophy from the philosophical. I do not need my philosophy to be inspired by the divine that I think, has never existed. Also, I don't know of philosophy being borne of cultural or any other mythologies. First, man doesn't need to be slave to a culture, like say...human sacrifice. Call it tradition or label however you wish, man can and has relied upon his reason and science. Clearly you have no real understanding of culture, philosophy, or mythology. Pity. It might be helpful if it is known that in the social sciences, a myth refers to a widely held belief, regardless of its internal truth or falsehood. It doesn't imply that the belief is false or that it is true. Rather it accepts that if enough people believe a belief or concept to be true, then the strength and popularity of that belief creates a truth value for the belief. A myth has no necessary inherent truth, and whether it's true or false is to a large degree irrelevant. One example might be in Nazi Germany, the antisemitism myth was so widely held to be true that it created a truth value for this noxious sentiment. For all intents and purposes, antisemitism in Nazi Germany was a fact, even though this abhorrent prejudice has no truth value of its own. I hope this helps clarify things. Apples and oranges. myth: 1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature. 2. stories or matter of this kind: realm of myth. 3. any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth. 4. an imaginary or fictitious thing or person. 5. an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution. Anti-semitism is a prejudice, not a myth. The lies about Jews were myths but the hate they created...was no myth. I.e., just because you get a large number of believers, doesn't change the fact that it is myth. Similar to the lies concocted about non-believers. (here aplenty) It's a defense mechanism for those being chastised for their belief...in a myth.

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 12:53:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: The central message of Christianity is that if you want to go to heaven when you die, you have to believe that Jesus took the punishment for your sins by dying on the cross for you. And where did Jesus say any of that? He didn't...[they] do. " I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me"... is just one instance i can quote from the top of my head. Not Jesus. Plus, to a non-believer...it doesn't matter.

MrRodgers -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 1:00:20 PM)
Oops

thompsonx -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 2:04:58 PM)
ORIGINAL: tamaka Hmmmm... burn in hell for eternity or believe. That's not faith. That's trauma. Some call it "fire insurance"

Real0ne -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 9:17:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick quote: Honestly, it sounds like you would rather just be mad at God than understand why these things happen but I will give you something to think about. Not in the slightest, God is utterly unaware of me, my daughter, or any of us. Now that being said, I am still waiting for your answer here, your standard dodge will not work with me. You said God knows what is best, well then explain to me what is best about my daughter dying, since the obscenity you worship is supposedly all up close and personal, why did he make viruses that will kill infants? Come on Captain God-Botherer, defend the revolting creature you worship, tell us how he loves us all so much he kills us off prematurely in agony by the millions. Explain this all-encompassing benevolence for us Christ-lover, explain it to us, show us the love and mercy you claim he is made of, this murdering tyrant who would condemn anybody who does not grovel before him to an eternity of torment. God is not obscene, but your god most certainly is. quote: You seem to think that the resurrection of Jesus is mythology Because it is quote: and has nothing to do with the message of Christianity I did not say that. Pay attention quote: but I tell you that the resurrection is a major theme of Christianity Of course it is, nobody has denied or questioned that. Again, pay attention. quote: and that Jesus’ resurrection is proof and a guarantee of a greater resurrection to come. It is neither. If his resurrection is so very special, then why wasn't Lazarus' resurrection equally important. What was it about Jesus' resurrection that makes it so very special? Because it is in the very ancient middle eastern tradition of the risen god, the god who sacrifices himself and rises from the dead. By claiming Jesus rose from the dead, he is tied to the other self-sacrificial saviours that have permeated middle eastern mythology from the very beginning. There is nothing new or original in the Jesus story itself, it is all just recycled mythology that had been floating around that part of the world for thousands of years. Its been like a thousand years since I thought about this, but wasnt JC from the order of melchizedek and granted I am foggy on this but doesnt elchizedek have middle east connections in there somewhere?

Marini -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/10/2017 9:22:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick Alright, cunt-for-brains God botherer. Explain to me why it was "good" that my daughter died just after her 1st birthday. How is a world with meningococcus in it "good" for humanity? How is having an infant killed by a bacterium what is best for humanity? Honestly, it sounds like you would rather just be mad at God than understand why these things happen but I will give you something to think about. You seem to think that the resurrection of Jesus is mythology and has nothing to do with the message of Christianity but I tell you that the resurrection is a major theme of Christianity and that Jesus’ resurrection is proof and a guarantee of a greater resurrection to come. You can't have proof without evidence, and saying the words in the bible are a form of evidence that Christ was resurrected is no different from saying Star Wars is evidence that Jedi are real or that the Harry Potter series is evidence that magic and the existence of Voldemort is real. I had a chat about the Bible today, with my jewish doctor. She is jewish and her husband is a christian. She said she explained to her children, that the Bible is like a story that gets passed around. By the time it is told to 100 people, the story is very different then the original story. I have always believed the Bible has been altered and tampered with. Everybody is going to "serve" someone in this world, pick what you want to believe in and enjoy it. I don't know why many people put so much energy into trying to change other people's minds. To thine own self be true, and live with your beliefs or your non-beliefs.

tweakabelle -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/11/2017 3:42:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle And we are back to your old faithful, the No True Scotsman fallacy again ... To sum it up all you are offering is a mixture of fallacies and self serving hypotheticals. If you are persuaded by such flimsy nonsense, that's your choice. But I hope you can see why it's too much of a stretch to expect others to be similarly persuaded. Might I suggest that you learn what the No True Scotsman fallacy actually is and come back when you have a grasp on what logic fallacies are and how to apply them to what has been said to you. I'm well aware of what the No True Scotsman fallacy is thank you. I even included a link to the definition in wiki to assist you if you weren't aware of it. And it appears that either you aren't aware of what the fallacy is, or are wilfully blind to your own use of the fallacy multiple times in your post #476 on page 24, which led to my detailing your use of the fallacy in my response to that post. So here's the link to the definition again to help you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman I suggest you read the link this time.

vincentML -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/11/2017 5:48:05 AM)
quote: By the time it is told to 100 people, the story is very different then the original story. I have always believed the Bible has been altered and tampered with. if you read any of the works of scholars who study the Bible through historical and literal writings in it you’ll find that many many agree that there was an oral tradition before any of the written books of the Bible were germinated. They take such comparisons as passages in say Mark and Matthew or Luke and look at the wording and find that they are so similar but with slight alterations that suggest they must’ve come from some common (if you’ll excuse the allusion to evolution) ancestor, and a common ancestor is the oral tradition. It should not be a surprise that there was a rich oral tradition before any of the books were written. The people were not literate. Which was the oldest book? If I’m not mistaken I think it was Mark, and it was a book that had allusions to the dead rising from their graves all over the city landscape when Jesus rose and that sort of thing. But that passage was not carried forward in Matthew and Luke. So yes I believe your Bible was changed during the shift was from the oral tradition to the written form but your use of the word “tampered” suggest some kind of nefarious plot or conspiracy in the process of assembling the books of the Bible and I doubt that is true. Of course being a nonbeliever my interest in the Bible is rather limited although I’ve done a bit of reading about it. So yeah go ahead and enjoy whatever makes you comfortable and less fearful of dying. When I generalize the word “you” I am not referring to you personally Marini. Your words come through my PC screen as from a good and tolerant person; I wish you much happiness in your belief.

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