RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (Full Version)

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Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 9:46:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
…
Whatever fallacy bullshit you are arguing about there really is no answer for the monstrous estimate that 7.6 million innocent children age five or less die terrible deaths each year from disease and natural catastrophes created by the beneficent [8|] omnipotent [8|] merciful [8|] intelligent [8|] Designer.

How do you explain the horror visited upon innocent children by the cruel, evil, heartless, murderous Intelligent Designer, Miles?

It appears you have run out of “Evolutionary” reasoning and have fallen back on this old chestnut, which only works if what we are talking about is an ‘either or” situation but it is not.

You want us to believe that if everything was created by God then if there are terrible things in existence then they must God’s fault.

The trouble is Free Will, God is not the only one to possess free will and others with free will can take what has been created and use it a in “terrible” way producing terrible things.

For example most would say gravity is a good thing but if someone takes another and throws them off a cliff then a “good” thing has been used in a terrible way to produce a terrible thing and we really should not blame God for that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You are also invited to respond to my post a #614

I already have, I took my time answering because I had other things to do and I kind of thought you could use a little time to “cool off”.




Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 9:59:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Honestly, it sounds like you would rather just be mad at God than understand why these things happen but I will give you something to think about.

Not in the slightest, God is utterly unaware of me, my daughter, or any of us. Now that being said, I am still waiting for your answer here, your standard dodge will not work with me. You said God knows what is best, well then explain to me what is best about my daughter dying, since the obscenity you worship is supposedly all up close and personal, why did he make viruses that will kill infants?
Come on Captain God-Botherer, defend the revolting creature you worship, tell us how he loves us all so much he kills us off prematurely in agony by the millions.
Explain this all-encompassing benevolence for us Christ-lover, explain it to us, show us the love and mercy you claim he is made of, this murdering tyrant who would condemn anybody who does not grovel before him to an eternity of torment.

God is not obscene, but your god most certainly is.

quote:

You seem to think that the resurrection of Jesus is mythology

Because it is
quote:

and has nothing to do with the message of Christianity

I did not say that. Pay attention
quote:

but I tell you that the resurrection is a major theme of Christianity

Of course it is, nobody has denied or questioned that. Again, pay attention.
quote:

and that Jesus’ resurrection is proof and a guarantee of a greater resurrection to come.

It is neither. If his resurrection is so very special, then why wasn't Lazarus' resurrection equally important. What was it about Jesus' resurrection that makes it so very special?

Because it is in the very ancient middle eastern tradition of the risen god, the god who sacrifices himself and rises from the dead. By claiming Jesus rose from the dead, he is tied to the other self-sacrificial saviours that have permeated middle eastern mythology from the very beginning. There is nothing new or original in the Jesus story itself, it is all just recycled mythology that had been floating around that part of the world for thousands of years.


I am "paying attention" that is why I said what I said.

I gave you something to think about, did you?

I don't think so because you are still rehashing the same things you said before I said that to you.

Step outside your whole, it's just an "ancient middle eastern tradition of the risen god, the god who sacrifices himself and rises from the dead" and "it is all just recycled mythology that had been floating around that part of the world for thousands of years" idea and stop and think about what the "greater resurrection" I mentioned could mean for you personally.



ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 10:26:48 AM)

quote:

The trouble is Free Will,

Really? But your god is omniscient, he supposedly knows everything, and has always known everything, therefore, he knows what you are going to do before you do it, Hell, he knew exactly what you were going to do at every stage of your life before you were even born, so how can you claim that your free will is at all relevant?
God knew from before creation exactly who Ted Bundy would kill, he knew before creation that Hitler would be gassing Jews, and that Stalin would starve millions, he knew it was all going to happen right from the get go, and yet he allowed it to happen why? Out of love apparently.



ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 10:31:18 AM)

quote:

stop and think about what the "greater resurrection" I mentioned could mean for you personally.

It doesn't mean a fucking thing to me Captain God-Botherer, anymore that the resurrection of Dionysus does. You are wasting your time with your stupid attempts at proselytizing me, I am an apostate, I was subjected to all your bullshit by people far more skillful at it than you will ever be and they failed, so you will to.

Now how about you actually reply to the questions asked of you for a change, instead of trying to side step them.
Why, if your god knows what is best for us, did he make viruses that kill infants? Why did he make us require food and drink, and then allow people to not be able to get enough of them?



WhoreMods -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 10:49:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
You want us to believe that if everything was created by God then if there are terrible things in existence then they must God’s fault.

The trouble is Free Will, God is not the only one to possess free will and others with free will can take what has been created and use it a in “terrible” way producing terrible things.

Free will created the scabies mite, polio, chiggers and onchocerciasis how, exactly?



ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 11:11:42 AM)

A very good question, but one he will not even address, let alone try to answer. [:)]



WhoreMods -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 11:21:43 AM)

The really appalling thing is that you could assemble a list much longer than WD's schlong in that photo he keeps posting...



vincentML -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 2:59:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
…
Whatever fallacy bullshit you are arguing about there really is no answer for the monstrous estimate that 7.6 million innocent children age five or less die terrible deaths each year from disease and natural catastrophes created by the beneficent [8|] omnipotent [8|] merciful [8|] intelligent [8|] Designer.

How do you explain the horror visited upon innocent children by the cruel, evil, heartless, murderous Intelligent Designer, Miles?

It appears you have run out of “Evolutionary” reasoning and have fallen back on this old chestnut, which only works if what we are talking about is an ‘either or” situation but it is not.

You want us to believe that if everything was created by God then if there are terrible things in existence then they must God’s fault.

The trouble is Free Will, God is not the only one to possess free will and others with free will can take what has been created and use it a in “terrible” way producing terrible things.

For example most would say gravity is a good thing but if someone takes another and throws them off a cliff then a “good” thing has been used in a terrible way to produce a terrible thing and we really should not blame God for that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
You are also invited to respond to my post a #614

I already have, I took my time answering because I had other things to do and I kind of thought you could use a little time to “cool off”.



Such bullshit, Miles. Free Will for hurricanes and volcanoes, and diseases? BAH!!

And you already answered my post #614???? Pure Bollocks. You are a gutless phony, Miles.



Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 3:43:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
quote:

The trouble is Free Will,

Really? But your god is omniscient, he supposedly knows everything, and has always known everything, therefore, he knows what you are going to do before you do it, Hell, he knew exactly what you were going to do at every stage of your life before you were even born, so how can you claim that your free will is at all relevant?
God knew from before creation exactly who Ted Bundy would kill, he knew before creation that Hitler would be gassing Jews, and that Stalin would starve millions, he knew it was all going to happen right from the get go, and yet he allowed it to happen why? Out of love apparently.

Have you ever had the "omniscience vs free will" discussion before?

Many define omniscience like you have; that God "supposedly knows everything, and has always known everything, therefore, he knows what you are going to do before you do it, Hell, he knew exactly what you were going to do at every stage of your life before you were even born" and that God being omniscient would have known "from before creation exactly who Ted Bundy would kill, he knew before creation that Hitler would be gassing Jews, and that Stalin would starve millions, he knew it was all going to happen right from the get go, and yet he allowed it to happen". This definition seems to cause a paradox; that there is no such thing as free will and that from the moment of Creation, the future of everything was already laid out until the "end of the universe" and thus even God can't change it even if he wanted to and thus even God doesn't have free will once the universe was put in motion.

Predestination, it is interesting that "Evolution" is also strongly on the side of predestination, since the Universe is like a large set of set up dominoes and once started by the "Big Bang" there is nothing to stop or change what is happening until the dominoes stop falling. Evolution, our existence and any decisions we might make are all just part of the "natural" chain of events that started with the "Big Bang". Most "Evolutionists" don't seem to realize that predestination is a kind of side corollary to their “belief” in "Evolution".

Myself, I kind of like the feeling that I have free will, I know that doesn’t make it so but it does mean that I have thought about alternatives to predestination.

I start with what omniscient might mean.

God is also omnipotent and yet he can use as much or as little of his power as is needed. Much like we can pick up something fragile without crushing it even though we have the power to do so, God does not use more of his omnipotence than is necessary.

What if omniscience is similar and it means that God doesn’t necessarily know everything but has the ability to know everything and can use as much or as little of that ability as he wants and with the desire to give mankind the gift of free will he has decided to limit his omniscience where it conflicts with free will?



Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 4:14:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
quote:

stop and think about what the "greater resurrection" I mentioned could mean for you personally.

It doesn't mean a fucking thing to me Captain God-Botherer, anymore that the resurrection of Dionysus does.

Didn’t even bother to try to think about it, did you?

I can tell because the "greater resurrection" and the resurrection of Dionysus, aside from the word resurrection, are not even close to similar concepts.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
You are wasting your time with your stupid attempts at proselytizing me, I am an apostate, I was subjected to all your bullshit by people far more skillful at it than you will ever be and they failed, so you will to.

I’m not trying to proselytize you or anyone else and I could care less whether you are an “apostate” or not; so, get off of this “oh no, he’s trying to proselytize me band wagon” before you fall off and break your leg.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
Now how about you actually reply to the questions asked of you for a change, instead of trying to side step them.
Why, if your god knows what is best for us, did he make viruses that kill infants? Why did he make us require food and drink, and then allow people to not be able to get enough of them?

I am under no obligation to answer your questions, I’m not your personal answer machine and your swearing and name calling is not a real enticement for me to even continue to talk with you let alone answer your questions.



bounty44 -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 4:27:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
[Why, if your god knows what is best for us, did he make viruses that kill infants? Why did he make us require food and drink, and then allow people to not be able to get enough of them?


you somehow think you are the only person in the world who has ever had those questions and that your asking them somehow disproves the existence of god?

or that those questions have not been asked and answered successfully by people who do indeed believe in god?

if you are genuine in your seeking a legitimate answer, read cs lewis "the problem with pain" as a start.




bounty44 -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 4:28:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
You want us to believe that if everything was created by God then if there are terrible things in existence then they must God’s fault.

The trouble is Free Will, God is not the only one to possess free will and others with free will can take what has been created and use it a in “terrible” way producing terrible things.

Free will created the scabies mite, polio, chiggers and onchocerciasis how, exactly?


do you walk to school or carry your lunch?

those things exist because of the fall of man as described in genesis.



Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 4:37:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Such bullshit, Miles. Free Will for hurricanes and volcanoes, and diseases? BAH!!

Yes free will, you don't have to live on the coast and deal with hurricanes; you don't have to live on the side of a volcano and deal with volcanoes and you really don't have to deal with diseases either but then you would have to have some common sense and follow some simple sanitation principles but then it seems those things are beyond the grasp of your understanding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
And you already answered my post #614???? Pure Bollocks. You are a gutless phony, Miles.

Crimeinitaly, who put the bee in your bonnet? Perhaps if you just check your thread before you start casting aspersions on others, you would see that yes, your post #614 was answer with my post #657.

Now I'm going to tell you the same thing I told TDC; "I am under no obligation to answer your questions, I’m not your personal answer machine and your swearing and name calling is not a real enticement for me to even continue to talk with you let alone answer your questions."



mnottertail -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 4:39:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick
[Why, if your god knows what is best for us, did he make viruses that kill infants? Why did he make us require food and drink, and then allow people to not be able to get enough of them?


you somehow think you are the only person in the world who has ever had those questions and that your asking them somehow disproves the existence of god?

or that those questions have not been asked and answered successfully by people who do indeed believe in god?

if you are genuine in your seeking a legitimate answer, read cs lewis "the problem with pain" as a start.



I somehow think that no one has answered those questions sucessfully who indeed believe in god.

In fact most intelligent people think that same thing, and it is never successfully answered.



Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 4:41:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
You want us to believe that if everything was created by God then if there are terrible things in existence then they must God’s fault.

The trouble is Free Will, God is not the only one to possess free will and others with free will can take what has been created and use it a in “terrible” way producing terrible things.

Free will created the scabies mite, polio, chiggers and onchocerciasis how, exactly?


do you walk to school or carry your lunch?

those things exist because of the fall of man as described in genesis.

Thanks, I've been avioding this simple answer because the people asking don't believe in the existence of God, let alone the "fall of man" but it is what is going on whether they believe it or not.



bounty44 -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 5:04:21 PM)

i remember your liking this before and its worth sharing again:

the atheist cannot find god for the same reason a bank robber cannot find a cop.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 5:06:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

i remember your liking this before and its worth sharing again:

the atheist cannot find god for the same reason a bank robber cannot find a cop.

I'll disagree slightly with ONLY the analogy.
You have your faith and I have mine OK?

The bank robber KNOWS that the cop in fact exists.



Milesnmiles -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 7:15:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
And we are back to your old faithful, the No True Scotsman fallacy again ...

To sum it up all you are offering is a mixture of fallacies and self serving hypotheticals. If you are persuaded by such flimsy nonsense, that's your choice. But I hope you can see why it's too much of a stretch to expect others to be similarly persuaded.

Might I suggest that you learn what the No True Scotsman fallacy actually is and come back when you have a grasp on what logic fallacies are and how to apply them to what has been said to you.

I'm well aware of what the No True Scotsman fallacy is thank you. I even included a link to the definition in wiki to assist you if you weren't aware of it. And it appears that either you aren't aware of what the fallacy is, or are wilfully blind to your own use of the fallacy multiple times in your post #476 on page 24, which led to my detailing your use of the fallacy in my response to that post.

So here's the link to the definition again to help you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
I suggest you read the link this time.

Actually, you are not “well aware” of what the "No True Scotsman fallacy" is at all and that is the problem.

If you truly understood you would not be throwing it around and acting like it applies when it doesn’t.

Here let me explain it to you;
First, you need to understand that there is such a thing as a “True Scotsman” and that there are standards for someone being a “True Scotsman” and that if someone does not meet those standards then they are not a “True Scotsman”.

It only becomes a “No True Scotsman fallacy” when someone makes up an “fallacious arbitrary standard” and tries to use that “fallacious arbitrary standard” to prove or disprove that someone is a “True Scotsman”.

So, now let’s look at the example from your oft repeated link:
Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
(note the “fallacious arbitrary standard” is “puts sugar on his porridge”)

Person B: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge."
(using the real standards for being a “True Scotsman”, “uncle Angus” is a “True Scotsman” and he “likes sugar with his porridge” thus pointing out that the “fallacious arbitrary standard” is a false standard and cannot be used to determine a “True Scotsman”)

Person A: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
(Here in an attempt to validate the “fallacious arbitrary standard” “puts sugar on his porridge”, circular reasoning is used to try and show that “puts sugar on his porridge” is a determining standard for whether someone is a “True Scotsman” or not)

Now let’s apply your new understanding to whether someone is a “True Christian” or not.

First are there are “true standards” for what a “True Christian” is? Yes and they can be found in the Bible.

So, let’s take a look at a sample type of statement:
No “True Christian” would (???). (whether this is the start of a “No True Scotsman fallacy” depends on whether (???) is a “true standard” for Christians or a “fallacious arbitrary standard”)

Now let’s take a statement that is often said or implied about Christians:
If a person or group calls themselves Christian or are thought to be Christian by most people then they are Christian.
(Okay is calling yourself or others calling you a Christian a “true standard” for whether a person or group is Christian?)

Nowhere in the bible is found the “true standard” that anyone calling themselves “Christian” is thus a “Christian” or that if most people believe that you are a “Christian” that means you are a “Christian” but both Matt 7:21 and Luke 6:46 seem to be indicating that there would be those would think themselves Christian but Jesus would say they were not.

Thus the “standard” that all who call themselves “Christian” or are thought to be “Christian” are “Christian” turns out to be a “fallacious arbitrary standard” and thus is in of itself a type of “No True Scotsman fallacy”.




Edwird -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 9:07:09 PM)

So then, we went to the moon and back, not because of scientists and engineers, but because god wanted to raise questions about when it occurred or if it ever occurred at all.

Good info.



Dvr22999874 -> RE: Creationist Belief Falling into the Dumpster (8/12/2017 9:58:34 PM)

Rowan Atkinson made a track called 'The Devil ' ......................... After listening to that again, I think I'll take up Devil Worship



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