RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters

RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (Full Version)

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Nnanji -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (8/31/2017 12:55:19 AM)
I tried to go to sleep and it bugged me so much that I forgot to mention one thing above I had to get up. I know I said I'd drop this, but since you haven't responded yet, I'm not ignoring yet. I'll give you a little and then take away a lot. Yes you've seen Sacramento flood, but it has very little to do with levees. If you look, Sacramento is located in the great San Joaquin Valley. That valley pretty much feeds the world. It grows more food than most nations. Yet, if you looked at what the valley was two hundred years ago, all you'd see was desert. It's not desert now because it's all irrigated. All up and down the valley are a bunch of irrigation dams. Irrigation dams are not built to operate like flood control dams. They capture and hold as much storm runoff as they can to sell to farmers downstream as irrigation and to cities for drinking water. Without them, for example, Los Angeles would not exist. When an irrigation dam stores water and then an unusual storm event happens, such as a Pineapple Express that melts the snow in the mountains in a couple of weeks instead of a couple of months, those dams have to quickly release water to make room. You're seeing that happen now in Houston. The dams release as much water in a week or two as they would normally release over a summer. That is what causes the flooding and the levee failure you're seeing. The dams release water to keep them from catastrophic failure regardless of the damage it causes downstream. Now for years, since Leland Stanford was Governor, the people of the state have wanted to build flood control dams to counter the releases. But the thought of that sort of thing just drives left wing environmental whackos crazy. So those left wing whackos begin lawsuits to stop the projects. And, hey, since the state is run by left wing whackos they begin to wonder why they would want to push forward a reasonable project against one of their powerful constituency groups and the projects stop. So all of the nice people of Sacramento are forced to buy flood insurance and live through that flooding you've seen so that the left wing nut jobs don't have a falling out between themselves. Screw the people of Sacramento, their not important, the bugs and bunnies are. But it's not, generally, because of 9 out of 10 levees failing as you said in your BS post. There are problems with levees. For instance all of the levees are maintained by local reclaimation districts. So, for instance, the levees along the San Joaquin River might be maintained by fifty or so different local districts with all of the funding and personality problems that can entail. But, saying 9 out of 10 levees fail is just ignorance.

Dvr22999874 -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (8/31/2017 1:02:35 AM)
That COULD have been really interesting

Nnanji -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (8/31/2017 7:47:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874 That COULD have been really interesting What could have been interesting?

Marini -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (8/31/2017 6:14:25 PM)
Now, people are facing the devastation. Many don't have flood insurance. What's next for many people? People return and start to pick up the pieces Sadly, the grim search for bodies continues, and Army official that led rescue efforts with Hurricane Katrina commander calling the military response "amateur hour". Search for bodies continues, Katrina commander calls military response "amateur hour"

jlf1961 -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (8/31/2017 6:42:45 PM)
Does not agree that the levees in the California delta will not fail Multiple levee breaches Of course this wonderful tidbit: quote: The California Department of Water Resources also estimates it would cost $1.4 billion just to get the levees to acceptable standards to protect crops—not people. “None of these would meet the standard for a 100-year flood,” said Mount. So, you still want to claim that the California levee system has no chance of failure?

HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (8/31/2017 6:57:46 PM)
When you build levees in earthquake territory isn't eventual failure pretty much assured?

Marini -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (8/31/2017 7:19:43 PM)
It looks like Hurricane Irene, could also be a serious storm. What is going on with this weather?

jlf1961 -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (8/31/2017 8:14:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind When you build levees in earthquake territory isn't eventual failure pretty much assured? Not according to one particular individual. What the individual either fails to realize, or refuses to accept is that the Army corp of Engineers issues an infrastructure report every year. As of 2016, 96% of interstate highway bridges are listed as substandard, 92% of all major publicly owned dams are below substandard, and 98% of the levee system in the US is substandard and in need of immediate renovation. Now, the cost of those repairs and renovation projects has not yet been released, but the last year with a dollar figure, 2014, the projected cost was 2.6 trillion dollars over 20 years. Now for the real kicker, considering that there are only 10 construction firms in the US that are qualified to bid on major USACE contracts of this magnitude, it would mean that each of those companies would have to expand dramatically, or to put it another way, if it was authorized tomorrow, it would put over a million and a half people to work, most of whom would need to be trained in the skills needed. A law passed in the 70's makes it mandatory for the USACE to purchase all materials needed for such contracts domestically. At present, the US Steel industry is at a low point of production, meaning that the steel mills would have to retool, expand, and update, or another quarter of a million jobs. Iron ore is sold on the futures markets, so, to meet the increased demands of the renewed steel industry, iron mines would have to expand, meaning about 300 thousand jobs, with more expansion as the steel mills bring more foundries on line. Bottom line is that within five years, the unemployment rate (only counting those who are actively looking for work) would fall below 3 percent. Federal tax revenues across the board would bring about a balanced budget in 10 years, with outstanding debts paid off. However, to fund the projects, either cuts would have to be made in pet programs or taxes would have to go up. If taxes have to go up, the conservatives will scream rape. If cuts are made GOP favorites, they will scream rape. If cuts are made in Dem favorites, the dems will scream rape. And even if both sides come to an agreement on how to fund the projects, they will fight it tooth and nail if the other party proposes it, even if taxes could be lowered dramatically within 7 to 10 years. Bottom line, the only way anything will happen is if a few damns burst and kill a ten or twenty thousand people or a few highway bridges go down and a few hundred die, or all of the above.

Nnanji -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (9/1/2017 8:49:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind When you build levees in earthquake territory isn't eventual failure pretty much assured? Not according to one particular individual. What the individual either fails to realize, or refuses to accept is that the Army corp of Engineers issues an infrastructure report every year. As of 2016, 96% of interstate highway bridges are listed as substandard, 92% of all major publicly owned dams are below substandard, and 98% of the levee system in the US is substandard and in need of immediate renovation. Now, the cost of those repairs and renovation projects has not yet been released, but the last year with a dollar figure, 2014, the projected cost was 2.6 trillion dollars over 20 years. Now for the real kicker, considering that there are only 10 construction firms in the US that are qualified to bid on major USACE contracts of this magnitude, it would mean that each of those companies would have to expand dramatically, or to put it another way, if it was authorized tomorrow, it would put over a million and a half people to work, most of whom would need to be trained in the skills needed. A law passed in the 70's makes it mandatory for the USACE to purchase all materials needed for such contracts domestically. At present, the US Steel industry is at a low point of production, meaning that the steel mills would have to retool, expand, and update, or another quarter of a million jobs. Iron ore is sold on the futures markets, so, to meet the increased demands of the renewed steel industry, iron mines would have to expand, meaning about 300 thousand jobs, with more expansion as the steel mills bring more foundries on line. Bottom line is that within five years, the unemployment rate (only counting those who are actively looking for work) would fall below 3 percent. Federal tax revenues across the board would bring about a balanced budget in 10 years, with outstanding debts paid off. However, to fund the projects, either cuts would have to be made in pet programs or taxes would have to go up. If taxes have to go up, the conservatives will scream rape. If cuts are made GOP favorites, they will scream rape. If cuts are made in Dem favorites, the dems will scream rape. And even if both sides come to an agreement on how to fund the projects, they will fight it tooth and nail if the other party proposes it, even if taxes could be lowered dramatically within 7 to 10 years. Bottom line, the only way anything will happen is if a few damns burst and kill a ten or twenty thousand people or a few highway bridges go down and a few hundred die, or all of the above. Petty.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (9/1/2017 9:14:27 AM)
quote: What is going on with this weather? Nothing at all. [8\|]

duglaz -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (9/1/2017 10:44:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind When you build levees in earthquake territory isn't eventual failure pretty much assured? Not according to one particular individual. What the individual either fails to realize, or refuses to accept is that the Army corp of Engineers issues an infrastructure report every year. As of 2016, 96% of interstate highway bridges are listed as substandard, 92% of all major publicly owned dams are below substandard, and 98% of the levee system in the US is substandard and in need of immediate renovation. Now, the cost of those repairs and renovation projects has not yet been released, but the last year with a dollar figure, 2014, the projected cost was 2.6 trillion dollars over 20 years. Now for the real kicker, considering that there are only 10 construction firms in the US that are qualified to bid on major USACE contracts of this magnitude, it would mean that each of those companies would have to expand dramatically, or to put it another way, if it was authorized tomorrow, it would put over a million and a half people to work, most of whom would need to be trained in the skills needed. A law passed in the 70's makes it mandatory for the USACE to purchase all materials needed for such contracts domestically. At present, the US Steel industry is at a low point of production, meaning that the steel mills would have to retool, expand, and update, or another quarter of a million jobs. Iron ore is sold on the futures markets, so, to meet the increased demands of the renewed steel industry, iron mines would have to expand, meaning about 300 thousand jobs, with more expansion as the steel mills bring more foundries on line. Bottom line is that within five years, the unemployment rate (only counting those who are actively looking for work) would fall below 3 percent. Federal tax revenues across the board would bring about a balanced budget in 10 years, with outstanding debts paid off. However, to fund the projects, either cuts would have to be made in pet programs or taxes would have to go up. If taxes have to go up, the conservatives will scream rape. If cuts are made GOP favorites, they will scream rape. If cuts are made in Dem favorites, the dems will scream rape. And even if both sides come to an agreement on how to fund the projects, they will fight it tooth and nail if the other party proposes it, even if taxes could be lowered dramatically within 7 to 10 years. Bottom line, the only way anything will happen is if a few damns burst and kill a ten or twenty thousand people or a few highway bridges go down and a few hundred die, or all of the above. Or, we one by one replace the Congressional oligarchy with 3rd party people interested in actually governing.

Musicmystery -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (9/1/2017 11:43:52 AM)
Exactly.

Marini -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (9/1/2017 7:13:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: duglaz quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind When you build levees in earthquake territory isn't eventual failure pretty much assured? Not according to one particular individual. What the individual either fails to realize, or refuses to accept is that the Army corp of Engineers issues an infrastructure report every year. As of 2016, 96% of interstate highway bridges are listed as substandard, 92% of all major publicly owned dams are below substandard, and 98% of the levee system in the US is substandard and in need of immediate renovation. Now, the cost of those repairs and renovation projects has not yet been released, but the last year with a dollar figure, 2014, the projected cost was 2.6 trillion dollars over 20 years. Now for the real kicker, considering that there are only 10 construction firms in the US that are qualified to bid on major USACE contracts of this magnitude, it would mean that each of those companies would have to expand dramatically, or to put it another way, if it was authorized tomorrow, it would put over a million and a half people to work, most of whom would need to be trained in the skills needed. A law passed in the 70's makes it mandatory for the USACE to purchase all materials needed for such contracts domestically. At present, the US Steel industry is at a low point of production, meaning that the steel mills would have to retool, expand, and update, or another quarter of a million jobs. Iron ore is sold on the futures markets, so, to meet the increased demands of the renewed steel industry, iron mines would have to expand, meaning about 300 thousand jobs, with more expansion as the steel mills bring more foundries on line. Bottom line is that within five years, the unemployment rate (only counting those who are actively looking for work) would fall below 3 percent. Federal tax revenues across the board would bring about a balanced budget in 10 years, with outstanding debts paid off. However, to fund the projects, either cuts would have to be made in pet programs or taxes would have to go up. If taxes have to go up, the conservatives will scream rape. If cuts are made GOP favorites, they will scream rape. If cuts are made in Dem favorites, the dems will scream rape. And even if both sides come to an agreement on how to fund the projects, they will fight it tooth and nail if the other party proposes it, even if taxes could be lowered dramatically within 7 to 10 years. Bottom line, the only way anything will happen is if a few damns burst and kill a ten or twenty thousand people or a few highway bridges go down and a few hundred die, or all of the above. Or, we one by one replace the Congressional oligarchy with 3rd party people interested in actually governing. [sm=agree.gif] A strong 3rd party could certainly win!! [sm=line.gif]

Marini -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (9/1/2017 7:23:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: HaveRopeWillBind When you build levees in earthquake territory isn't eventual failure pretty much assured? Not according to one particular individual. What the individual either fails to realize, or refuses to accept is that the Army corp of Engineers issues an infrastructure report every year. As of 2016, 96% of interstate highway bridges are listed as substandard, 92% of all major publicly owned dams are below substandard, and 98% of the levee system in the US is substandard and in need of immediate renovation. Now, the cost of those repairs and renovation projects has not yet been released, but the last year with a dollar figure, 2014, the projected cost was 2.6 trillion dollars over 20 years. Now for the real kicker, considering that there are only 10 construction firms in the US that are qualified to bid on major USACE contracts of this magnitude, it would mean that each of those companies would have to expand dramatically, or to put it another way, if it was authorized tomorrow, it would put over a million and a half people to work, most of whom would need to be trained in the skills needed. A law passed in the 70's makes it mandatory for the USACE to purchase all materials needed for such contracts domestically. At present, the US Steel industry is at a low point of production, meaning that the steel mills would have to retool, expand, and update, or another quarter of a million jobs. Iron ore is sold on the futures markets, so, to meet the increased demands of the renewed steel industry, iron mines would have to expand, meaning about 300 thousand jobs, with more expansion as the steel mills bring more foundries on line. Bottom line is that within five years, the unemployment rate (only counting those who are actively looking for work) would fall below 3 percent. Federal tax revenues across the board would bring about a balanced budget in 10 years, with outstanding debts paid off. However, to fund the projects, either cuts would have to be made in pet programs or taxes would have to go up. If taxes have to go up, the conservatives will scream rape. If cuts are made GOP favorites, they will scream rape. If cuts are made in Dem favorites, the dems will scream rape. And even if both sides come to an agreement on how to fund the projects, they will fight it tooth and nail if the other party proposes it, even if taxes could be lowered dramatically within 7 to 10 years. Bottom line, the only way anything will happen is if a few damns burst and kill a ten or twenty thousand people or a few highway bridges go down and a few hundred die, or all of the above. Thanks for taking the time, to elaborate and share. *I am no one in particular. [;)] I don't fully understand all the nuances you are speaking of, but I am getting the big picture. Capitalism

tj444 -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (9/2/2017 1:48:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini Thanks for taking the time, to elaborate and share. *I am no one in particular. [;)] I don't fully understand all the nuances you are speaking of, but I am getting the big picture. Capitalism Marni, this article gives the history of Houston (& area).. thought you might find it interesting.. I thin Mother Nature is trying to take it back... "Inundation is nothing new here. Right from the start, it took tremendous effort and loss of life to claim the Houston area from the prevailing floods. O.F. Allen, an early settler and nephew of a Houston founder, wrote of his experience in the infant city: "Once could hardly picture the jungle and swampy woods that a good portion of the city is built upon. These swampy grounds had to be cleared and drained. The writer himself quite clearly remembers that the southwestern portion of the city was a green scum lake, studded with giant sweet gum trees, and water from one to two and a half feet deep... " http://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/explainer/article/The-trouble-with-living-in-a-swamp-Houston-7954514.php

Marini -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (9/3/2017 8:05:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Marini Thanks for taking the time, to elaborate and share. *I am no one in particular. [;)] I don't fully understand all the nuances you are speaking of, but I am getting the big picture. Capitalism Marni, this article gives the history of Houston (& area).. thought you might find it interesting.. I thin Mother Nature is trying to take it back... "Inundation is nothing new here. Right from the start, it took tremendous effort and loss of life to claim the Houston area from the prevailing floods. O.F. Allen, an early settler and nephew of a Houston founder, wrote of his experience in the infant city: "Once could hardly picture the jungle and swampy woods that a good portion of the city is built upon. These swampy grounds had to be cleared and drained. The writer himself quite clearly remembers that the southwestern portion of the city was a green scum lake, studded with giant sweet gum trees, and water from one to two and a half feet deep... " http://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/explainer/article/The-trouble-with-living-in-a-swamp-Houston-7954514.php That is interesting, I am not sure I would want to rebuild in Houston, but people will. Looking at the damage and devastation is unbelievable. Inside home damaged by Hurricane Harvey

Musicmystery -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (9/4/2017 4:51:06 AM)
Some won't have a choice: Texas just passed a law making it harder to sue insurance companies that 'abuse' policyholders https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/31/texas-just-passed-a-law-making-it-harder-to-sue-insurance-companies-that-abuse-policyholders.html Right Before Harvey, Trump Nixed a Rule Designed to Protect Cities From Flood Risks http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2017/08/28/right_before_harvey_trump_nixed_a_rule_designed_to_protect_cities_from_flood.html “This disaster is going to be a landmark event," Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Brock Long said on CNN Sunday. “We’re setting up and gearing up for the next couple of years.’’ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/08/27/federal-emergency-officials-preparing-years-recovery-efforts-states-hittexas-and-other-harvey-target/606036001/ Harvey hits mortgages as flood-stricken homeowners are unlikely to pay https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/30/harvey-hits-mortgages-as-flood-stricken-homeowners-are-unlikely-to-pay.html Houston, we'll have a problem -- insurance companies that won't pay http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/08/28/houston-well-have-problem-insurance-companies-that-wont-pay.html Will Harvey Make Houston’s Boom Go Bust? http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/08/will-harvey-make-houstons-boom-go-bust.html Banker: 'You Can't Rebuild Houston Without Mexican Labor' http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/banker-houston-reconstruction-rebuild/2017/08/30/id/810733/ Why 85% of Houston homeowners have no flood insurance https://qz.com/1063985/hurricane-harvey-why-85-of-homeowners-in-houston-dont-have-federal-flood-insurance/ How Hurricane Harvey Could Cause Long-Term Devastation The record floods predicted as the storm stalls on the Texas coast might wreck the federal flood-insurance program, and cause financial ruin for insured and uninsured homeowners alike. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/how-hurricane-harvey-could-cause-long-term-devastation/538080/

tj444 -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (9/4/2017 4:38:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marini quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Marini Thanks for taking the time, to elaborate and share. I am no one in particular. [;)] I don't fully understand all the nuances you are speaking of, but I am getting the big picture. Capitalism Marni, this article gives the history of Houston (& area).. thought you might find it interesting.. I thin Mother Nature is trying to take it back... "Inundation is nothing new here. Right from the start, it took tremendous effort and loss of life to claim the Houston area from the prevailing floods. O.F. Allen, an early settler and nephew of a Houston founder, wrote of his experience in the infant city: "Once could hardly picture the jungle and swampy woods that a good portion of the city is built upon. These swampy grounds had to be cleared and drained. The writer himself quite clearly remembers that the southwestern portion of the city was a green scum lake, studded with giant sweet gum trees, and water from one to two and a half feet deep... " http://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/explainer/article/The-trouble-with-living-in-a-swamp-Houston-7954514.php That is interesting, I am not sure I would want to rebuild in Houston, but people will. Looking at the damage and devastation is unbelievable. Inside home damaged by Hurricane Harvey Thats just part of the problem with where Houston is... the place is sinking!!! Mother Nature is trying to take it back! [:o] But, this is the 4th biggest city in the US so it aint going anywhere else.. "For years, the Houston area has been losing ground Houston is sinking - and has been for decades. As torrential rains have pounded the city in consecutive years, leading to repeated, heavy and deadly flooding, this inconvenient fact contributes to the region's misery. Parts of Harris County have dropped between 10 and 12 feet since the 1920s, according to data from the U.S. Geological Survey. State and local officials have made various efforts over the past 40 years to stabilize the ground, but some areas continue to sink - by as much as 2 inches per year. " http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/For-years-the-Houston-area-has-been-losing-ground-7951625.php Now they say at least 60 have died.. many were people that ventured out and got caught in flash floods/flooded roads.. that is the biggest danger, not so much the winds.. "Officials now blame at least 60 deaths on Harvey after the storm dumped many feet of rain on several counties in a matter of days. Many of those deaths were people drowning in flash floods or water-logged roads*. But county emergency management departments across southeast Texas tell The Associated Press they are including people in their storm-related death totals who died from indirect complications of Harvey." https://www.yahoo.com/news/latest-residents-allowed-home-near-chemical-plant-145111839.html There are people flocking here now to make big bucks $$$$$$ doing home repairs, etc.. I guess this means higher rents, higher costs for building materials (hope they dont import more Chinese drywall to fill demand), construction job wages rising, various other costs increasing.. eta- forgot to mention the 13 or so Superfund toxic chemical waste sites that are flooded... [>:] http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/texas/article/AP-EXCLUSIVE-Toxic-waste-sites-flooded-EPA-not-12169198.php

MercTech -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (9/4/2017 6:38:09 PM)
Sacramento area and flooding..... Sam Clemens (Mark Twain) was a newspaper reporter in California back during the gold rush days. When I worked the Rancho Seco decomissioning; one thing he mentioned in his stories came home to me, "... a squirrel could go from Angel's Camp to the San Francisco Bay without ever having to touch ground." Today, it is a cheat grass desert with the occasional irrigated vineyard between Angel's Camp and San Francisco. If the forests hadn't been clear cut and never replanted; would it have turned to desert and have the flooding problems from occasional huge mountain run off?

bounty44 -> RE: Role of the Federal, State, Local governments during disasters (9/4/2017 6:54:56 PM)
merc, your post made me think of a fascinating book I read a few years ago, the worst hard time. it's a history of the dust bowl and well worth a read.

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