Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (Full Version)

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vincentML -> Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (8/31/2017 12:49:11 PM)

The Trump administration will unveil a new plan Monday to roll back limits on a controversial program that provides local law enforcement agencies with surplus military gear, marking the end of a policy implemented during the Obama administration.

Congressman William Lacy Clay has responded to the new executive order to be signed by Trump that rescinds President Obama’s directive.

His full statement reads as follows:

“Three years ago, as the tragedy in Ferguson unfolded, I personally witnessed local police in armored vehicles pointing military-style sniper rifles with night scopes at my constituents who were peacefully exercising their constitutional rights.

That over-militarization increased tensions, incited more violence and established a deadly perception that local police officers had become warriors instead of guardians of public safety.

In response, I worked closely with former President Obama and former U.S. Secretary of Defense Hagel to place reasonable limits on the distribution of military surplus items to local law enforcement. That was in keeping with key findings and recommendations of the President’s Taskforce on 21st Century Policing.

President Trump’s decision to rescind these limitations will allow local police departments to receive grenade launchers, bayonets, tracked armored vehicles, sniper rifles and military grade ammunition; along with other surplus Department of Defense equipment that was intended for use on the battlefield, not in neighborhoods.

President Trump’s reckless decision to remilitarize local police is another shameful step backwards as he continues to deepen divisions across this country while appeasing hate, bigotry and intolerance.”
source

From what I’ve read elsewhere, these will be some heavy duty weapons that are no longer needed on the battle field. I also understand that the procurement process will bypass city Council and go directly to me Defense Department and the city police.

You of a conspiracy mind may care to stop and consider whether it is a good idea to have a well-equipped standing military conducting the public safety business of towns and cities.

From the New York Times story on this issue

NEENAH, Wis. — Inside the municipal garage of this small lakefront city, parked next to the hefty orange snowplow, sits an even larger truck, this one painted in desert khaki. Weighing 30 tons and built to withstand land mines, the armored combat vehicle is one of hundreds showing up across the country, in police departments big and small.

The 9-foot-tall armored truck was intended for an overseas battlefield. But as President Obama ushers in the end of what he called America’s “long season of war,” the former tools of combat — M-16 rifles, grenade launchers, silencers and more — are ending up in local police departments, often with little public notice.

During the Obama administration, according to Pentagon data, police departments have received tens of thousands of machine guns; nearly 200,000 ammunition magazines; thousands of pieces of camouflage and night-vision equipment; and hundreds of silencers, armored cars and aircraft.

The equipment has been added to the armories of police departments that already look and act like military units. Police SWAT teams are now deployed tens of thousands of times each year, increasingly for routine jobs. Masked, heavily armed police officers in Louisiana raided a nightclub in 2006 as part of a liquor inspection. In Florida in 2010, officers in SWAT gear and with guns drawn carried out raids on barbershops that mostly led only to charges of “barbering without a license.”

When the military’s mine-resistant trucks began arriving in large numbers last year, Neenah and places like it were plunged into the middle of a debate over whether the post-9/11 era had obscured the lines between soldier and police officer.


I find this kind of scary and maybe a threat to the continued establishment of the Republic. Maybe you can give me a a different point of view.




servantforuse -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (8/31/2017 1:35:19 PM)

It was only a controversial program to liberals. That surplus equipment was paid for by taxpayers and was being put to good use by law enforcement agencies.




StWrinklemeat -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (8/31/2017 1:42:03 PM)

The Golden Awe is a visionary. I do believe he armed up the mentally imbalanced first via a memo. Ahead of his time you know.




ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (8/31/2017 2:06:31 PM)

FR
The instruments of coercion must be supplied with the most intimidating and destructive equipment to allow them to subjugate an increasingly restive populace. Tyranny 101




Hillwilliam -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (8/31/2017 3:37:31 PM)

If our police want to use military equipment, I have no problem with THIS caveat.



DISSOLVE the 'thin blue line'
Hold the cops to the same standard as the military.
They want to act like "the big boys" FINE Hold them to the same standard.

Make them accountable at a higher standard than civilians.
Fuck up, go to Leavenworth
Watch a coworker fuck up and hide it, it's like you committed the same crime. GO TO LEAVENWORTH

Make the cops sign a civilian version of the UCMJ,

I'll support giving them big boy's toys then.




bounty44 -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (8/31/2017 3:53:02 PM)

the article I posted in the "doj---constitution" thread, written by judge Napolitano, talks about this from a constitutionality perspective.




MercTech -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (8/31/2017 3:57:27 PM)

After WWII; any citizen could bid on lots of military surplus being auctioned off.
Today, who can bid on what is severely restricted. Only approved bidders can bid on armor, weapons, vehicles.

And, there was a post 9/11 policy of providing upgraded weapons and even armored personnel carriers and body armor to local police jurisdictions that jumped through the right hoops to apply.

Controversial... a bit. A few things I have personal opinions on the subject.
Law enforcement is different from combat military. I question the trend for almost two decades of progressively militarizing police forces. Does the local sheriff enhance his mission by obtaining an armored personnel carrier? The selling APCs cheap to nuclear power plants kind of makes sense. Giving one to a small town police department doesn't compute for me.

I think the surplus auctions should be open to all citizens. I'd love to bid on one of the surplus diesel scout bikes the USMC was using over in the sandbox. Can cops use surplus body armor, sure can. But, why can't civilians bid on and purchase as well?

For over a century you could purchase your service weapon when mustering out. Why are surplus weapons given to what became Isis insurgents and they are destroyed rather than allow them into the hands of citizens? The history of "sporterizing" military weapons for sale on the civilian market has a long history. (To "sporterize" an M16 or M4 you pull the auto sear and selector switch then tack weld in a pin so you can't drop a new auto sear into it. It is harder to make a weapon full auto that has been sporterized than it is to make an AR-15 selective fire. I haven't done this but my gunsmith buddy on the technical details. I know personally how to sporterize an M-14)

Police departments should be able to buy surplus military equipment. There are a lot of things used by the military directly applicable to law enforcement and emergency responders. I also think it should be an auction on the cheap and not a straight giveaway. Anyone with the funds should be able to bid.

On government auctions... back in the day I went to one and, on a whim, bid one dollar on every lot available that day (obligated for $56 if I has won everything_ I did win one lot.. a Vietnam War suplus jeep with "drop damage". Drop damage as in the cargo chute didn't open when they were practicing logistics drops. It cost $80 for us to get a wrecker to haul it back to base. Our LPO let us park it just outside one of the warehouse doors. After six weeks of taking it apart during off hours; we cleared from parts sales and scrap metal sales about $5000. My cut was the down payment on my first brand new street bike.

For info on current requirements for GSA auctions you can go to
https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/gsaauctions/

I can find no information on the net about DoD surplus auctions; which is one of my bitches about the surplus auctions. The only people that get to bid are those invited to bid.

Other government sales information can be found at
https://www.usa.gov/auctions-and-sales




bounty44 -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (8/31/2017 6:50:58 PM)

quote:

This past week, the DOJ also announced it will be offering to local police vast amounts of surplus military equipment -- much of it new, fearful and lethal -- from body armor to listening devices to battle tanks.

If police begin to look like soldiers and carry soldiers' gear in soldiers' vehicles, will they begin to think like soldiers, whose goal is not to win hearts and minds and keep streets safe but to destroy the lives and property of the enemy in wartime?

Moreover, the strings attached to this federal hardware giveaway do not require congressional or even local government approval. They require only acceptance by the police and regular local use of the military equipment. Local police should not have this discretion and should not be subjected to this temptation.


https://townhall.com/columnists/judgeandrewnapolitano/2017/08/31/dangers-are-coming-to-the-rule-of-law-n2375083




jlf1961 -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (8/31/2017 9:30:16 PM)

If I may point out a simple fact....

In the large urban metro areas, often times the local gangs have the cops out gunned, way the fuck out gunned.

So, in my opinion, an armored vehicle makes sense, and in the case of one bank robbery in LA some years ago, the cops needed fucking cannons, the perps were using automatics with armor piercing rounds.




kdsub -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (8/31/2017 9:49:05 PM)

To me it is not the equipment that is at fault but how and when it is used. Lets face it there are times when an armored vehicle is needed to protect the police, firemen, emergency personnel, innocent citizens and property. Sniper rifles ...vests... etc also have their uses. Uses that only military style equipment can fill.

If those weapons were properly used in the Ferguson affair there would have been much less property damage. They should not be used however to disperse legal protests... or even illegal if peaceful protests... this was not the case in Ferguson.

I have no sympathy for looters and rioters...I could not care less if their sensibilities were bruised by the use of military equipment.

The real problem in Ferguson was not the appearance of military equipment but their lack of use.

Butch




MrRodgers -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (8/31/2017 11:12:59 PM)

Hey, you never know. They may run into a disturbed, 100 lb., knife-wielding, woman. Never hurts to be armed as heavily as possible.

Like I am and have been trying to tell you kinkroids, this is clearly the next step and a very important step to the future police state that is coming to America.




kdsub -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (9/1/2017 8:46:09 AM)

Mr Rodgers the asshole protesters in Ferguson were using Molotov cocktails... police were shot...buildings set on fire...people beaten.. businesses looted. This was not a peaceful protest where poor old ladies with signs were assaulted by police storm troopers. The police made the mistake of not aggressively asserting control with every tool they had at the beginning of the riots...and look what happened.

Butch




BamaD -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (9/1/2017 9:34:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Mr Rodgers the asshole protesters in Ferguson were using Molotov cocktails... police were shot...buildings set on fire...people beaten.. businesses looted. This was not a peaceful protest where poor old ladies with signs were assaulted by police storm troopers. The police made the mistake of not aggressively asserting control with every tool they had at the beginning of the riots...and look what happened.

Butch

Rest assured that this is to support you, not in any way to attack you.
Also there is gross misrepresentation of the equipment the police get.
Better vests endanger civilians, how?
Flshbangs endanger civilians, how?
Even apc's reduce the need to use firepower so they make civilians safer.
Now if the police were getting A-1 Abrams they would have an argument.
If the police were getting A-10s they would have an argument.
If they were getting flame throwers (which the military hasn't used for 40 years) they would
have an argument.
BTY I don't think it was the 100 pound woman so much as the 9 inch knife.




ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (9/1/2017 9:39:15 AM)

Give a man a toy, and he will find excuses to use it




WhoreMods -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (9/1/2017 10:20:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

If our police want to use military equipment, I have no problem with THIS caveat.



DISSOLVE the 'thin blue line'
Hold the cops to the same standard as the military.
They want to act like "the big boys" FINE Hold them to the same standard.

Make them accountable at a higher standard than civilians.
Fuck up, go to Leavenworth
Watch a coworker fuck up and hide it, it's like you committed the same crime. GO TO LEAVENWORTH

Make the cops sign a civilian version of the UCMJ,

I'll support giving them big boy's toys then.

Sounds right. Most of the European paramilitary police auxiliaries are seconded from their army and work under military discipline and standards, so if you want to have an equivalent of the gendarmes or the cabinieri there, treating them the same way makes sense.




BamaD -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (9/1/2017 10:37:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

If our police want to use military equipment, I have no problem with THIS caveat.



DISSOLVE the 'thin blue line'
Hold the cops to the same standard as the military.
They want to act like "the big boys" FINE Hold them to the same standard.

Make them accountable at a higher standard than civilians.
Fuck up, go to Leavenworth
Watch a coworker fuck up and hide it, it's like you committed the same crime. GO TO LEAVENWORTH

Make the cops sign a civilian version of the UCMJ,

I'll support giving them big boy's toys then.

Sounds right. Most of the European paramilitary police auxiliaries are seconded from their army and work under military discipline and standards, so if you want to have an equivalent of the gendarmes or the cabinieri there, treating them the same way makes sense.

You do know that being military and havening leftover military equipment are not the same thing don't you?




WhoreMods -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (9/1/2017 10:45:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

If our police want to use military equipment, I have no problem with THIS caveat.



DISSOLVE the 'thin blue line'
Hold the cops to the same standard as the military.
They want to act like "the big boys" FINE Hold them to the same standard.

Make them accountable at a higher standard than civilians.
Fuck up, go to Leavenworth
Watch a coworker fuck up and hide it, it's like you committed the same crime. GO TO LEAVENWORTH

Make the cops sign a civilian version of the UCMJ,

I'll support giving them big boy's toys then.

Sounds right. Most of the European paramilitary police auxiliaries are seconded from their army and work under military discipline and standards, so if you want to have an equivalent of the gendarmes or the cabinieri there, treating them the same way makes sense.

You do know that being military and havening leftover military equipment are not the same thing don't you?

Yes. This is why military sorts are a bit more trustworthy with the hardware than coppers, and why, when you want a paramilitary auxiliary to the police, you second it from the armed forces instead of giving the military machinery to coppers.
Is this really a difficult point?




BamaD -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (9/1/2017 11:03:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

If our police want to use military equipment, I have no problem with THIS caveat.



DISSOLVE the 'thin blue line'
Hold the cops to the same standard as the military.
They want to act like "the big boys" FINE Hold them to the same standard.

Make them accountable at a higher standard than civilians.
Fuck up, go to Leavenworth
Watch a coworker fuck up and hide it, it's like you committed the same crime. GO TO LEAVENWORTH

Make the cops sign a civilian version of the UCMJ,

I'll support giving them big boy's toys then.

Sounds right. Most of the European paramilitary police auxiliaries are seconded from their army and work under military discipline and standards, so if you want to have an equivalent of the gendarmes or the cabinieri there, treating them the same way makes sense.

You do know that being military and havening leftover military equipment are not the same thing don't you?

Yes. This is why military sorts are a bit more trustworthy with the hardware than coppers, and why, when you want a paramilitary auxiliary to the police, you second it from the armed forces instead of giving the military machinery to coppers.
Is this really a difficult point?

Flashbangs and better vest don't make you paramilitary. It is the mission, not the equipment.
You should know that creating a paramilitary is treading on thin ice legally.




WhoreMods -> RE: Pres. Trump to resume sending military weapons to local police. (9/1/2017 11:27:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

If our police want to use military equipment, I have no problem with THIS caveat.



DISSOLVE the 'thin blue line'
Hold the cops to the same standard as the military.
They want to act like "the big boys" FINE Hold them to the same standard.

Make them accountable at a higher standard than civilians.
Fuck up, go to Leavenworth
Watch a coworker fuck up and hide it, it's like you committed the same crime. GO TO LEAVENWORTH

Make the cops sign a civilian version of the UCMJ,

I'll support giving them big boy's toys then.

Sounds right. Most of the European paramilitary police auxiliaries are seconded from their army and work under military discipline and standards, so if you want to have an equivalent of the gendarmes or the cabinieri there, treating them the same way makes sense.

You do know that being military and havening leftover military equipment are not the same thing don't you?

Yes. This is why military sorts are a bit more trustworthy with the hardware than coppers, and why, when you want a paramilitary auxiliary to the police, you second it from the armed forces instead of giving the military machinery to coppers.
Is this really a difficult point?

Flashbangs and better vest don't make you paramilitary. It is the mission, not the equipment.
You should know that creating a paramilitary is treading on thin ice legally.

Whereas two tooled up policemen shooting a mentally ill woman in the back because she happened to have a kitchen knife isn't?




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