RE: Are cakes art?

RE: Are cakes art? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Are cakes art?

No: thinking that they are is really gay

35% (10)

No: of course they're not

3% (1)

Don't know

0% (0)

Don't care

17% (5)

Maybe if they're really good cakes

7% (2)

Yes: anybody who can charge for a made to order cake is an artisan

28% (8)

Yes: if Haring and Koon's smug whiffle is art, so's a fancy cake

7% (2)

Total Votes : 28

(last vote on : 9/27/2017 6:35:01 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

Real0ne -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 1:47:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV When you decide to go into business, you do so acknowledging the laws and codes necessary for your business, in your community & state. And you stay on top of major changes to those laws. so as far as you are concerned anyone who goes into business waives their reserved rights expressed in the constitution, and are purely subject to administrative regulatory rules. Freedom of religion or freedom of belief is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship, and observance. It also includes the freedom to change one's religion or belief. Where is waiver of rights to be found? Where is this acknowledgement you claim exists? Where is the obligation to conform to unconstitutional administrative rules? Seems the ACLU disagrees with you as well: WHAT IS RELIGIOUS FREEDOM EXACTLY? The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says that everyone in the United States has the right to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all. Our country's founders -- who were of different religious backgrounds themselves -- knew the best way to protect religious liberty was to keep the government out of religion. So they created the First Amendment -- to guarantee the separation of church and state. Seems the gubmint is smack in the middle of religion. This case is about the right to exercise religion according to you that right does not exist (except for gays) if the gubmint overlays their commercial religion favoring gays right to exercise their religion while stomping on the christians right to exercise their religion. citation please

Real0ne -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 2:08:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech quote: ORIGINAL: JVoV And the State of Colorado added sexual orientation to their protected classes you can't discriminate against. Does a wedding cake count as food? Luxury baked goods aren't essential. Bakeries, confectionery stores, liquor stores, are in some states included and other states not. The federal law doesn't mention sexual orientation but the "makeup of household" as one of the protected classes not to be discriminated against makes same sex domestic relationships protected under law. It is the same provision that makes it unlawful to refuse housing if a renter has children. But, pets are not a protected class. <take that, crazy cat lady that wanted to rent my extra bedroom> and theres the rub

MercTech -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 2:13:25 PM)
On the wedding cake issue that does not die.... there are two points to be answered. 1. Is a wedding cake a service that is protected under the Civil Rights Act? 2 Does refusal to provide a wedding cake for a ceremony counter to the bakery owners religions beliefs count as discrimination before the law. I'd give that a #1 NO, #2 Yes. As it isn't a protected service; the discrimination doesn't constitute a violation of law. Now, if a contract for a cake had been made or funds deposited in expectation of a cake being delivered; there would be grounds for a civil action. It was my understanding that the bakery terminated any business with the couple as soon as they found out it was a same sex marriage so I doubt a contract was in force.

Real0ne -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 2:20:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech On the wedding cake issue that does not die.... there are two points to be answered. 1. Is a wedding cake a service that is protected under the Civil Rights Act? 2 Does refusal to provide a wedding cake for a ceremony counter to the bakery owners religions beliefs count as discrimination before the law. I'd give that a #1 NO, #2 Yes. As it isn't a protected service; the discrimination doesn't constitute a violation of law. Now, if a contract for a cake had been made or funds deposited in expectation of a cake being delivered; there would be grounds for a civil action. It was my understanding that the bakery terminated any business with the couple as soon as they found out it was a same sex marriage so I doubt a contract was in force. but it is protected. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. and of course they get around that by having the regulatory agencies make so called laws which is yet another violation of their charter. any act that does not conform to the organic law of the land is null, not law.

kdsub -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 2:36:28 PM)
MercTech what if this same baker decided they would not bake a cake for a black man marrying a white woman... or would not bake a cake for you because of your views on power exchange claiming it is against their religion? To me all those who provide services to the general public should be required to serve all of legal standing. People should understand the possibilities they may face in their occupation and choose one that would suit their religion when making their choice. I do think the Constitution protects your right to a religion but it does not give you the right to discriminate because of the teachings of your religion. There must be a balance of rights and because one of the very basic tenets of the Constitution is separation of church and state human rights will always hold sway over religious rights. Butch

Real0ne -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 2:48:59 PM)
the whole argument is foolish and its long over due for the gubmint to get the fuck out of the religion business. "All Americans should be free to peacefully live and operate consistent with their convictions without threat of government punishment," says Kerri Kupec, one of Stutzman's lawyers from the Arizona-based group Alliance Defending Freedom. She argues Stutzman is an artist and creating an arrangement specifically for a gay couple's wedding is against the florist's religious beliefs. "Under this kind of rationale that's happening in Washington state, a gay singer could be forced by the government to perform at a religious conference that is promoting marriage as a [purely] man-woman union," she says. People can go ahead and through their own ignorance fight against freedom of 'religion' and it will all come back to bite you in the ass in spades. Oh and I see you are in direct contradiction of yourself again doing your orwelling act that you do so well quote: I do think the Constitution protects your right to a religion but it does not give you the right to discriminate because of [exercise] the teachings of your religion. Cant see the forest because all the trees are in the way again

DesideriScuri -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 5:18:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub MercTech what if this same baker decided they would not bake a cake for a black man marrying a white woman... or would not bake a cake for you because of your views on power exchange claiming it is against their religion? Bssed on his previous post, the baker would be fine to not bake those cakes. Based on the idea that a wedding cake isn't an essential service, but a luxury good.

kdsub -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 5:46:41 PM)
Who determines what is essential and what is not...food is food and discrimination is discrimination. I do not think our Constitution makes those distinctions. What it does is protect us all from religious persecution...and denying food for instance is certainly that. We have the right to abide by our religious tenets but we do not have the right to force those on others... If a baker does not want to make a cake for gay couples then he or she has the right to find a more compatible profession. Butch

LadyPact -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 5:51:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Gay wedding cakes aren't available to anyone. Adding the qualifier that it's a "gay" wedding is why it's discrimination. If you were to put any other type of qualifying word before 'wedding,' the point wouldn't have to be argued. What if it was a wedding between people of different races? What about couples where one of the parties had been married before and got divorced? quote: Then, perhaps, they should take their business elsewhere. That's the beauty of letting the Market work. People don't have to patronize any business the don't want to patronize. The gay couple wants their beliefs to trump the religious beliefs of a shop owner. That's imposing beliefs upon another. The gay couple can (and likely has) get a cake from other bakeries. They don't have to get one from this bakery. They don't have to ask (or force, if you involve government) this baker to perform an act that he finds opposing his religious beliefs. But, they did and are doing just that. This is a point where I think we disagree. If people honestly think they are being discriminated against, the idea isn't supposed to be shut up about it and shop somewhere else. The idea is to be treated equally. The same as any other couple ordering a cake. quote: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/politics/masterpiece-cakeshop-owner-says-hes-lost-40-of-business-welcomes-scotus-hearing quote: “Regardless of your viewpoint about same-sex marriage, shouldn’t we all agree that the government shouldn’t force us to speak or act in a way that violates our deepest convictions?” Phillips queried in his prepared statement. “Like the one in Colorado will result in kind-hearted Americans being dragged before state commissions and courts, and punished by the government for peacefully seeking to live and work consistent with their beliefs about marriage? The couple who came to my shop that day 5 years ago are free to hold their beliefs about marriage, and all I ask is that I be allowed the equal opportunity to keep mine.” I appreciated the additional link. I have to say, it is quite a nice bakery. However, nobody is actually asking the man to change his mind or his beliefs. He's being asked not to discriminate based on them. Something SCOTUS has already ruled isn't legal. quote: I think you may have made a mistake. If not, you lost me. I'm probably not being clear. I am rushing a bit. In my opinion, this case is a case at all because the baker is trying to use his definition of "art" as the difference than cases that have already been lost. Similar cases have already been heard, and anti-discrimination tends to be how they've been ruled on. I expect it to happen again. quote: He has lost 40% of his business. IMO, , Free Market at work. If enough people are outraged enough that they decide to not frequent his shop and he goes out of business from it? Free Markets at work. Just like if a place decided not to serve (insert discrimination demographic here), there would be an outcry and a call for a boycott. It would either result in the business changing it's policy, the business going out of business for lack of customers, or the business doing fin because they replaced any lost customers with ones choosing to frequent them over their stance. This is just my opinion. I think any business that refuses to serve <insert demographic here> should expect a certain fall out. quote: Then why isn't it okay for a businessman to run his business the way he sees fit, and let people make their own choices as to where to shop? Isn't that how business is supposed to work? It's also supposed to be about treating people equally. quote: At one point in time, I agree anti-discrimination laws were necessary. With social media and the speed at which information travels now? Don't need them. The Free Market will take care of things. I'm not sure I can go with this. It was only ~25 years ago that this was the same state that put an initiative on the ballot to legally discriminate against people and it became law. We are talking about Colorado here. quote: It's not been given a chance. We have different opinions. The chance existed before. We, as a society, could have chosen not to discriminate, but we didn't do a great job. If we had, we wouldn't need cases like these. quote: Of course you don't think that's the answer. You'd rather government get more involved. That's fucking obvious. It's not that I want the government to get more involved. Personally, I think it would be really cool if people just did the right thing on their own. The problem is, how do we determine which is the "right" thing?

Made2Obey -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 5:56:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Who determines what is essential and what is not...food is food... Actually that's not exactly true. Most states with sales tax do not tax essential food, but do tax food that is considered a luxury item. Staples like milk, bread, meat, flour, etc are not taxed. But I would be willing to bet that every state with a sales tax would consider cake to be a luxury item. Therefore it is not an essential food item or service. Though they are customary, it would be very difficult to argue that a marriage could not be performed without a cake. Since they could still get married (except that same sex marriages were illegal in Oregon until the following year) and since they had alternatives from which to obtain a cake, their rights were not violated.

kdsub -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 6:46:30 PM)
Are you really going to argue over what is essential food and what is not when this denial would be just the first in a landslide of discrimination in the name of religion... the very reason this country and its Constitution was even thought of and instituted at great cost of life? Don't you understand if this is allowed to stand there could be denial of medicines... housing... healthcare....every single service could be denied to gays... atheists ...or any opposing religious affiliations. Surely you don't think only bakers and cakes and gays will be the end of it? Butch

bounty44 -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 6:46:51 PM)
just talking out loud---all the "what ifs" and "what ifs" and "what ifs" start to get maddening. in a fallen world and one in which there are competing values, there is no perfect solution. at some point, when two parties wont solve the contention between themselves, or they don't let the free market do it and end up resorting to the courts, then a decision is rendered. the courts essentially do, have already done, what we are doing here and all the "what ifs" really become effectively nullified and we need to learn to deal with the outcome.

bounty44 -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 6:50:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Of course you don't think that's the answer. You'd rather government get more involved. That's fucking obvious. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact It's not that I want the government to get more involved. Personally, I think it would be really cool if people just did the right thing on their own. The problem is, how do we determine which is the "right" thing? I just posted this a moment ago. in a world with competing values, there is no one "right thing." there is "what we can or should live with" when we don't agree. the essential choice is between the maximization of individual liberty/religious freedom as opposed to government intervention and use of force to address grievances. im pretty firmly in the former camp.

BamaD -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 7:29:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Are you really going to argue over what is essential food and what is not when this denial would be just the first in a landslide of discrimination in the name of religion... the very reason this country and its Constitution was even thought of and instituted at great cost of life? Don't you understand if this is allowed to stand there could be denial of medicines... housing... healthcare....every single service could be denied to gays... atheists ...or any opposing religious affiliations. Surely you don't think only bakers and cakes and gays will be the end of it? Butch That is a strawman.

kdsub -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 7:45:23 PM)
How Bama? There are already pharmacists that want to deny birth control pills because of their religion. Cakes would only be the beginning. What is to prevent a mechanic from denying service to a gay couple...or a grocery store... or clothing store.. what if a bank did not want to give credit... I could go on and on. You just should not be able to withhold services from the general public... by doing so you are forcing your religious views on others. Why is it then you are so against business owners right to prohibit firearms? I will tell you there are religions that are against killing weapons... and why just religions... if you are religious does that give you special rights in the US... If I were an atheists baker could I deny you service because you carry a weapon? Is it only those who claim to be religious that can determine who they want to give service too? Can you not see the can of worms this is opening? But I've made my point no sense arguing any further...have at it. Butch

BamaD -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 7:51:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub How Bama? There are already pharmacists that want to deny birth control pills because of their religion. Cakes would only be the beginning. What is to prevent a mechanic from denying service to a gay couple...or a grocery store... or clothing store.. what if a bank did not want to give credit... I could go on and on. You just should not be able to withhold services from the general public... by doing so you are forcing your religious views on others. Why is it then you are so against business owners right to prohibit firearms? I will tell you there are religions that are against killing weapons... and why just religions... if you are religious does that give you special rights in the US... If I were an atheists baker could I deny you service because you carry a weapon? Is it only those who claim to be religious that can determine who they want to give service too? Can you not see the can of worms this is opening? But I've made my point no sense arguing any further...have at it. Butch Tell me what would be a uniquely gay auto repair ? These people sell most things to gays just don't do gay wedding cakes.

kdsub -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 8:01:00 PM)
I'm just curious....If I were an atheists baker could I deny you service because you carry a weapon? It would be my personal belief. Butch

tamaka -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 8:24:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I'm just curious....If I were an atheists baker could I deny you service because you carry a weapon? It would be my personal belief. Butch How would it affect your conscience?

kdsub -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 8:28:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I'm just curious....If I were an atheists baker could I deny you service because you carry a weapon? It would be my personal belief. Butch How would it affect your conscience? So you are saying that we are not all equal in the US... the Religious are privileged? As an atheist would I not have the same right to follow my beliefs as say a Catholic? In this free country is your belief any more meaningful than mine? Believe me my conscience is telling me Republicans in Congress trying to take away healthcare from the poor are against my deeply held beliefs... can I deny service to all Republicans. Can you not see? Butch

tamaka -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 8:35:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: tamaka quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I'm just curious....If I were an atheists baker could I deny you service because you carry a weapon? It would be my personal belief. Butch How would it affect your conscience? So you are saying that we are not all equal in the US... the Religious are privileged? As an atheist would I not have the same right to follow my beliefs as say a Catholic? In this free country is your belief any more meaningful than mine? Can you not see? Butch I'm not saying anything. I asked you a serious question.

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