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DesideriScuri -> RE: Are cakes art? (9/24/2017 10:04:35 AM)
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ORIGINAL: LadyPact
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
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ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Do y'all read the entire thread or just skip over to what suits you?
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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
They are not imposing their religion on the gay couple. The gay couple can get married and continue on with their lives. Their lives, beliefs and morals do not hinge on this bakery making a cake for their homosexual wedding. Do you get to demand a Kosher or Halal butcher shop provide you pork? How about a pizza shop owned by a Muslim not using pork pepperoni
I've kind of answered this several times. I have no desire to be rude, so I'll try again. This is not a case of a business where the product is not available for everyone. It's about a service being available to some, but denied to others. It's a matter of discrimination.
Gay wedding cakes aren't available to anyone.
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No, the bakery is NOT imposing their religion. The gay couple is imposing their belief system on the bakery. The couple could just as easily go to another bakery and get their cake. But, they aren't. They are imposing their beliefs - or attempting to - through the blunt force of government. The bakery not supplying their cake does nothing for the couple's beliefs. The only thing it does (or might do, depending on how much research the couple has already done) is delay the purchase of a wedding cake. There is no requisite belief imposition. The gay couple can continue on in their lives any way they see fit; they are not being forced to do something that is anathema to their beliefs.
The case is years old. I'm pretty sure they aren't waiting for a wedding cake. [8D]
As for the rest, I think you might just be looking at the surface. It's a fallacy to believe this says nothing about the couple's beliefs. Does it occur to you that this couple might believe it is inherently wrong to be denied a service based on sexual orientation?
Then, perhaps, they should take their business elsewhere. That's the beauty of letting the Market work. People don't have to patronize any business the don't want to patronize.
The gay couple wants their beliefs to trump the religious beliefs of a shop owner. That's imposing beliefs upon another. The gay couple can (and likely has) get a cake from other bakeries. They don't have to get one from this bakery. They don't have to ask (or force, if you involve government) this baker to perform an act that he finds opposing his religious beliefs. But, they did and are doing just that.
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http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/politics/masterpiece-cakeshop-owner-says-hes-lost-40-of-business-welcomes-scotus-hearing quote:
“Regardless of your viewpoint about same-sex marriage, shouldn’t we all agree that the government shouldn’t force us to speak or act in a way that violates our deepest convictions?” Phillips queried in his prepared statement. “Like the one in Colorado will result in kind-hearted Americans being dragged before state commissions and courts, and punished by the government for peacefully seeking to live and work consistent with their beliefs about marriage? The couple who came to my shop that day 5 years ago are free to hold their beliefs about marriage, and all I ask is that I be allowed the equal opportunity to keep mine.”
[Bold Mine]
I don't see it as him keeping his. Even in his own statement, he's making it about his religious beliefs, rather than the 'art' angle.
I think you may have made a mistake. If not, you lost me.
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He has lost 40% of his business. IMO, , Free Market at work. If enough people are outraged enough that they decide to not frequent his shop and he goes out of business from it? Free Markets at work. Just like if a place decided not to serve (insert discrimination demographic here), there would be an outcry and a call for a boycott. It would either result in the business changing it's policy, the business going out of business for lack of customers, or the business doing fin because they replaced any lost customers with ones choosing to frequent them over their stance.
We do agree on this. What businesses we patronize are our own choices.
Then why isn't it okay for a businessman to run his business the way he sees fit, and let people make their own choices as to where to shop? Isn't that how business is supposed to work?
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At one point in time, I agree anti-discrimination laws were necessary. With social media and the speed at which information travels now? Don't need them. The Free Market will take care of things.
Can't quite do it.
It's not been given a chance.
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Get government to be less intrusive to businesses and let the Market take care of things. Guaranteed there would be bakeries created to cater to gay weddings. Hell, there might even be bakeries opened that makes wedding cakes only for gay weddings.
I'm not sure that's the answer.
Of course you don't think that's the answer. You'd rather government get more involved. That's fucking obvious.
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