quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakvampire

58
580
5800
58000

Then tell us all how many a shooter can take ut in 10 minutes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakvampire

58
580
5800
58000

Then tell us all how many a shooter can take ut in 10 minutes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakvampire

Perhapsjlf1961 & bamad should explain maths to me

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakvampire

58
580
5800
58000

Then tell us all how many a shooter can take ut in 10 minutes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drakvampire

Perhapsjlf1961 & bamad should explain maths to me

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery



3) If you believe a bunch of US citizens with firearms are any match for the US military, no logic will ever permeate your bizarre fantasy. For starters (let alone firepower and training), military brass is far smarter than to have a Rambo-esque shoot 'em up with a bunch of weekend cowboys. They'd take a far more strategic approach, and it would be largely over before people rang the bells and had a chance to start shooting.

Come on. You aren't stupid. If you want to discuss this, let's have an honest, real discussion.

As I stated, should the US government become such that the citizens will not stand for it, do you honestly think that government would have the backing of 100% of the US military?

Second point, the Afghan rebels beat the Soviet Mechanized army to the point that after 10 years, the Soviets gave up on Afghanistan and got the hell out. While the US did supply shoulder launched anti aircraft missiles, and provide some training, the majority of the rebel forces were poorly armed, not trained and made it too costly for the Soviet military to stay in place.

Third point, while armed citizens may not stand as a match against the US military, I have to point out that the US military is still stuck in the idea and philosophy of a symmetrical battle zone, i.e, the enemy has set lines etc, with the exceptions being the units created and trained in counter guerilla tactics.

And the final point, which goes back to the 'do you honestly think that if the US citizens rebelled against an oppressive Federal government in force, the entire military would follow that government?" Thanks to President Bush sr, and the elected presidents that followed, many reserve and even national guard units have been equipped with equipment that is nearly equivalent to the regular forces.

The last part of this point is extremely simple, since the court-martials of those involved in Mai Lai, during the Vietnam conflict, one of the primary focus with training is that personnel are trained that they are only required to follow legitimate legal orders of superior officers. At the point where those orders are to occupy US cities and towns with due to resistance to a tyrannical government, a good percentage would refuse such orders.

So, while the armed civilians would not alone be enough to stand against the military, I do believe that enough of the military would balk at firing on American citizens and desert with their equipment to make a significant difference in the eventual outcome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

So, yeah, we hold the second as sacred. We are an independent stubborn people who distrust anyone suggesting that we hang up our guns in some gun club or give them up completely.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

According to the bbc, a source so often quoted by gun regulation supporters....

US gun deaths averaged 11000 a year between 2001 and 2011

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Bama, these people insist guns cause violence.

Take away the guns, the violence goes away.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AtUrCervix

FR....

It's time we stop thinking that guns are a solution....

NOT ALL guns are a solution.

Guns...are a solution...but........repeaters....not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


Which, by my understanding, none of you want the problem fixed, you want the guns banned and all gun owners treated like potential criminals for owning guns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AtUrCervix

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: AtUrCervix

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: AtUrCervix

FR....

It's time we stop thinking that guns are a solution....

NOT ALL guns are a solution.

Guns...are a solution...but........repeaters....not.

It is time we stop thinking that guns are the problem.
Evil people are.

And...guns that exceed our need to protect ourselves.

There aren't any guns that exceed our need to protect ourselves.

I suspect the folks in Las Vegas would share a rather different opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Panic leads to bad laws.

That's kind of the point: most of the panic I see here is that of gun owners - who are terrified that this latest massacre might just lead to gun control. You could say - and many have - that it's the ongoing sense of panic about being physically attacked, an overmighty government, etc, etc - that has led to the bad laws allowing so much gun freedom today. But the panic about the possibility of getting killed in the next massacre, that already seems to me to have started to ebb away.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


Ask any NRA member and they will agree, gun violence is a problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

So, yeah, we hold the second as sacred. We are an independent stubborn people who distrust anyone suggesting that we hang up our guns in some gun club or give them up completely.

See, this is a good example of why I roll my eyes every time you and the brigade get fired up on this yet again.

1) Who you mean "we"? Certainly not me, and certainly not many Americans. Important? Yes. Sacred? You and I have very different ideas about what is and should be sacred.

2) "We" again -- I'm not so universally distrustful. So again, you speak for yourself and your compadres, not for America as one voice.

3) No one, beyond perhaps a very small minority, is suggesting or ever suggested you hang up guns in clubs or give them up. Hell, firearms are common in my neck of the woods. And they are used responsibly. And aside from a rare yard sign here and there belching out NRA talking points (usually about repealing NYS's Safe Act), folks are good with sensible regulation.

This whole us/them gun battle crisis is largely in your head.

Breathe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:


The Constitution is a fairly sacred document to many Americans, even the ones that haven't read it since high school (of they went to high school). And like Christians and the Bible, we focus on the parts we like, and that justify our positions.

Sure, I get that it's considered sacred. I see how that's desirable, too. But even more sacred than that is surely that part of the Declaration of Independence that states 'we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness'. Of course, those 59 dead have been deprived of their liberty and their ability to pursue happiness, along with their lives. It strikes me, from my no doubt simple outsider's point of view, that it's even more important than anything in the Constitution - including the 2nd, obviously - that America has failed most fundamentally of all insofar as it's not protected those people's rights to those three absolutely essential things.

While I agree with the fundamentals of your argument, I disagree with your solution, that being to deny the rights of the 187000000 gun owners who have never taken another human life, or harmed another human with a gun.

You have posted the numbers of US citizens killed by guns, but you fail to grasp that it is less than one percent (not even a one hundredth of a percent of gun owners) who have committed these heinous acts.

So the only solution is to punish the guilty and innocent equally?

So, I am curious, how would you handle the fact that in 2016, 330,000 people were injured in accidents caused by texting and driving? Just about every state has laws against it, but it still goes on, by people ignoring the law? The number of people killed in these accidents is, admittedly slightly lower at approximately 20,000.

So, do we ban cars? Smart phones?

There are a few hundred million of both in the US right now.

It is preventable.

The real kicker is that many point to guns as a preventable cause of death, which it is, and treat it as the leading cause of preventable deaths in the US, which it is not.




So, while people claim that car accidents are a non applicable comparison, in the argument of preventable deaths, I disagree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: tamaka


Some people dying occassionally so that this world has some hope of free men is still worth it.

Needless deaths at the hands of a madman is not the way to prove the argument.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The guy in Vegas bought 33 guns in the last year, that should have raised flags on a system somewhere, and would have IF the system was set up right.