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Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 11:38:15 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Morals and Morality. We tend to have our Morals programmed into us from an early age according to the society in which we grew up in or that our family held to. For most of the Western world the culture was Christianity of one form or another. Thus the underlying morality is one of the Christian Morality much influenced by the 10 Commandments. However other people over time and life experience develop their own set of moral values which may or may not be agreeable to the people who they live near or mingle with to some degree or another.   Thus I ask this:  
  1. Because we each see others through a whole series of filters not the least our moral filter, is it right for us to make judgments on others because their morals are different to our own?
  2. Is it right that we should (deliberately or inadvertently) try to force our morality onto others with the sort of “Thou shalt not” context in which we deal with them?


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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 11:39:36 AM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		For my part I long ago found that the morality of the country I was born in and still live in was not acceptable to me personally. I have my own set of standards including a strict sense of right and wrong all of which is part of the code I live my life by and interact with people by. According to the prevailing Christian Morality, I am not a moral man. I agree with that assessment as I am neither Moral nor Immoral but Amoral

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 11:46:46 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Good questions, IB.
 
I believe we all judge, and are judgemental, and have no problem with it, really, so to answer your first question, I would say yes, it's okay.
 
As for forcing our morality on others... it depends.
 
If a woman in an Islamic culture chooses to wear the hijab, that is her business, whether I like it or not. If she is forced to wear it, then I can advocate a "gentle" attempt at changing that circumstance, such as if you run a company, you could choose to do business with a group that did NOT force such.
 
If an Islamic woman were being beaten due to being found guilty (or "guilty") of breaking one of her people's customs, then perhaps stronger methods could be used to affect those people.

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 12:07:20 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Ironbear,

I think the main issue is we're all operating independently of each other. In an ideal world the world would have a governing body that acted out of a desire to civilise the world and lay the foundations for us to co-exist in peace. As we act out of self-interest we have no common view on what is right and wrong and thus we argue about which society is most moralistic. 

In such a scenario, there would be consistent and agreed morals across the globe (and the laws required to uphold them would be based on a world consensus of what is right and wrong rather than tit-for-tat arguments aimed at suggesting one culture has it right because we don't stone people and the other side responding by pointing to the rampant consumerism fuelled by moral bankruptcy and on it goes).

In practice, it would be hard to achieve because we have been conditioned to act out of self-interest but for as long as we continue to emphasise difference we will never have agreement on morals and what is right and wrong and it will constantly fuel divisions across the globe.

In answer to number 2, I don't think it is right. The reason being, we live in an age where morals are subservient to consumerism and if we don't have much in the way of morals ourselves then how can we attempt to suggest others develop some morals?

Regards,

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 12:09:42 PM   
fullofgrace


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From: fl, usa
Status: offline 		i don't think that we can judge people based on our own morals. there are things such as mass murder and torture that are generally held as morally wrong by most societies so i would say it is possible to judge others based on that, and that's how our justice system works, but even that is fallible - our justice system (at least in america) is based on the morals of a bunch of people and where they overlap is what is commonly agreed as justice and where they conflict is why we have issues in the justice system.

i agree with level's example; i personally think it's wonderful if someone wants to honor their culture by wearing the hijab. but if they're being told, "wear a burqa or be stoned to death," i would approve of stronger methods of trying to help the woman in question. it is like arranged vs. forced marriage; i am all cool with it up until somebody doesn't want to do it and is being forced against their will. i personally find threatening someone with physical harm when they don't do something (outside of a consensual d/s punishment context) to be wrong, because in effect that person is forcing their morals on someone else to the detriment of the someone else involved.

meh, i'm not speaking very clearly here. i don't feel like i have a right to force my morals on anyone. i will speak out about my belief that other people don't have that right when it's causing harm to someone (like a woman getting stoned). but in a general sense, for example, i don't feel it's right for abortion to be illegal because in my opinion it's a moral issue and no one has the right to force their morals on another person. or sectarian prayer sanctioned by the government (such as at military boot camp graduation - i have seen this, was offended by it - or in schools). etc. etc.


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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 12:16:26 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		You're speaking quite well, grace .

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 12:37:47 PM   
LotusSong


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Status: offline 		I do not see things as moral or immoral.  I see things as fair or unfair as it pertaines to me in my world.

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 12:51:23 PM   
SavageFaerie


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From: NYC
Status: offline 		Morality....is a give and take thing to me. I think alot on this subject..tho I have a hard time expressing my thoughts.

Having been raised in a somewhat but not strict Christian upbringing I guess my moral judgments change with the times and with real life experience and interactions of various cultures and another persons set of morals. 

I respect anyones set of values and morals, though they made not match my own. As I would hope others did the same with me. I wouldn't expect to change them to meet my needs or visa versa.  I respect people that are upfront about how they view things and  I try to adapt with changing of the guard so to speak.

I liken it to being who you are....I see no reason to conform to others as its our freedom to be who we are.  Respect who I am and I will do the same with you.

Will I ignore strong issues when it comes to safety of others?  I would try and work within reason but not be forceful about it.  If there is nothing I can do to change it doesn't mean I  just dust my hands...I am  but one person in this vast world.

my .01....Im short this month

< Message edited by SavageFaerie -- 7/29/2006 12:54:50 PM >

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 1:26:54 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		if morals are, basically, relativistic......does this mean that we can define ethics as absolute lines? can absolute lines be drawn?

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 1:39:00 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		My morals are likely few, so it is reasonable that would expect most of the world to think along the same lines....I guess it depends on what you determine to be morals. I think killing another human being or stealing someone's belongings is morally wrong. Of course then there is the exception where you have broken one of my morals and killed a member of my family, then I am likely going to kill you back....so I guess at the same time I felt it morally wrong what you did, I break my own morals seeking revenge. Did I impart my morals on you...hmmm, sort of, but you did it first.
 
Bottom line, I think everyone has their own set of standards and I think we will always be inclined to judge using that as a yardstick..even if we try not to. It may depend on how strongly we feel about those beliefs, if we try to push them onto someone else.

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 3:11:11 PM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		One of the problems which many low income folk here find when seeking a counseling services, as that most free services are operated by church groups. The problem is that these trained counselors have fairly ridged filters fixed over their eyes and really don’t handle problems pertaining to alternative religions or lifestyles.. In this was quite a number I know of personally, attempt top redirect their clients thinking and beliefs back through the strict views of the counselor’s religious beliefs. Thus those folk who are I need of help tend to forgo what benefits they may gain due to religious counselors being so narrow minded and unprepared to recommend another counseling service who is better equipped to deal with the client… There are some clients I send to other counselors because their ideology is foreign to mine and I have no understanding on this area and thus understand that I can’t do more than a quick fix (mostly  empathy and kindness) until I can locate some one who can and will either take over the client or co-counsel with me..

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Iron Bear

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http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 3:24:50 PM   
gooddogbenji


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From: Toronto
Status: offline 		I don't actually believe in morals, or ethics.  I have my own set, to a certain extent, but I do not believe in judging other people by it.  Because we were all raised differently, I consider it arrogant to judge others based on the way you were raised. 

I believe in a somewhat Nietzchien world view, where each person should strive to be the best person they can be, regardless of the judgements of others.  If you steal, get away with it and can sleep at night, kudos.  If you can't, don't do it.  And if you leave your bike out in your driveway and it gets stolen, you'll lock the next one up.

I don't think killing a person is wrong.  I believe society needs laws to function, but that these do not follow right/wrong lines but good/bad for society.

Kinda skewed, I know.  But it works for me,

Yours,


benji

Edited because even the letter "n" has the right to be in a word.

< Message edited by gooddogbenji -- 7/29/2006 3:28:07 PM >

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 3:30:41 PM   
KenDckey


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Status: offline 		I learned to change my moral outlook when I was in Africa.   The common practice there was not to shake hands but to hold hands.   Yeah   They had to hold me back the first time cause I was gonna kill him.

The community I lived in was about 50/50 Coptic Christian and Moslem.  As fate would have it, my entire Army unit was Southern Baptist.  The majority of them spent an inordinate amout of time trying to convenice they that their morals were wrong. 

Some of their traditions included cracking rocks behind their back when deficating (farts are the release of evil spirits) and growing rocks (in nicely laid out rows that were regularly weeded).  Yeah, I think it is funny, but I never laughed at it except when in the presnece of only my peers.   And Yes I did ask why they did it so I could at least be educated.

The problem as I see it, is that all to many people try to impose their set of morals upon the rest of the world.  Most of these are the religious fundamentalists in my opinion.  They are right and you are wrong and there is no changing their minds.

When I explore a new culture, I personally try to understand that culture.  Why do you not show the bottom of your foot to someone?  Why do you not call a person by wiggling your finger upright but do it inverted?  Why hold hands and not shake them?  Why do I go into a German bar and can't sit at the empty table?  and so on and so on.

I live by my personal set of morals.   Yes I subscribe to the "10 commandments" but they are found in one form or another in most religions so their preciepts are pretty much standard throughout the world.

I raised my grand daughter.   One day she came to me and said "Grandpa, get me a dildo or I am gonna get laid!"   I promptly went down and got her a dildo.   She was 14.  A cop friend of mine thought I was supporting her sexuality and reported me to CPS.  They laughed and said, as I felt, at least he isn't encourageing her to have sex - A dildo doesn't cause std's or babies.  Within my set of morals I was right.  The cops set of morals I was terribly wrong.

I don't ask that anyone agree with my set of morals.   I do ask that they at least be tollerant as I promise to do to them.

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 3:40:06 PM   
gooddogbenji


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

The problem as I see it, is that all to many people try to impose their set of morals upon the rest of the world.  Most of these are the religious fundamentalists in my opinion.  They are right and you are wrong and there is no changing their minds.



Quick poll:  How many people think the treatment of women in Taliban-era Afghanistan should have been changed years ago?

Wow.  We have a lot of fundamentalists here. 

Just because someone believes another culture to act immorally, does not mean they are fundamentalists.  It simply means they believe it to be wrong, which is a very normal sentiment.  The more extreme your conviction, the more quick you are to judge, but to the Taliban, by your logic, we are all fundamentalists.

I, personally, feel that if a culture wants to practice cannibalism, beat women, kill the elderly, and torture small animals, that's their problem.  I may not like it, but it is not my place to change it.

Yours,


benji

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 3:43:23 PM   
Saraheli


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quote:

Because we each see others through a whole series of filters not the least our moral filter, is it right for us to make judgments on others because their morals are different to our own?


I think that regardless of whether it is right or wrong, we can't help but judge others by our own morals.  What other standards do you have to judge them by?  I am not religious at all, and I never had overtly christian morals shoved at me.  So I view them as hypocritical, and they view me as hedonistic.  Are they right?  Am I?
The answer is yes to both, and neither is any more right then the other.

quote:

Is it right that we should (deliberately or inadvertently) try to force our morality onto others with the sort of “Thou shalt not” context in which we deal with them?


No, it's not right, but again, we all do it anyways, even without meaning too.  Our morals are ours because we think they are the best ones.  So it's natural we think they'd be the best for everyone.



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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 3:53:41 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

The problem as I see it, is that all to many people try to impose their set of morals upon the rest of the world.  Most of these are the religious fundamentalists in my opinion.  They are right and you are wrong and there is no changing their minds.



Quick poll:  How many people think the treatment of women in Taliban-era Afghanistan should have been changed years ago?

Wow.  We have a lot of fundamentalists here. 

Just because someone believes another culture to act immorally, does not mean they are fundamentalists.  It simply means they believe it to be wrong, which is a very normal sentiment.  The more extreme your conviction, the more quick you are to judge, but to the Taliban, by your logic, we are all fundamentalists.

I, personally, feel that if a culture wants to practice cannibalism, beat women, kill the elderly, and torture small animals, that's their problem.  I may not like it, but it is not my place to change it.

Yours,


benji


rofl   This is the type of thinking that I was talking about.   I expressed what was clearly an opinion and not subject to proof (cause I am entitled to my opinion) and it gets taken out of context and turned into something that it isn't.  Instead I should have asked Benji what my opinion should have been I guess.   Who knows.

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 3:59:05 PM   
gooddogbenji


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From: Toronto
Status: offline 		I'm not saying your opinion is bad, I'm just giving you the flaw I see in the logic therein.

You say anyone who wants to change others' cultures is a fundamentalist, I say we all want that to some extent, so we are all fundamentalists.

If you don't want feedback on your opinion, don't post it.  But don't get your knickers in a knot when someone comments on it.

Yours,


benji

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 4:03:48 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

I'm not saying your opinion is bad, I'm just giving you the flaw I see in the logic therein.

You say anyone who wants to change others' cultures is a fundamentalist, I say we all want that to some extent, so we are all fundamentalists.

If you don't want feedback on your opinion, don't post it.  But don't get your knickers in a knot when someone comments on it.

Yours,


benji


Oh so we are talking logic.   In that case, Who are you to decide what women will wear?   Personally I think they should wear their birthday suit, but I have only an opinion not subject to YOUR logic.

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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 4:07:10 PM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

In that case, Who are you to decide what women will wear?  



I think I said it earlier already.  I am no one to decide what they should wear.  They should decide, in conjunction with their culture and possible consequences, what they wear.

Besides, I have no idea whatsoever what your post was getting at.  But maybe that's me.

Yours,


benji


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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 4:12:15 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

The problem as I see it, is that all to many people try to impose their set of morals upon the rest of the world.  Most of these are the religious fundamentalists in my opinion.  They are right and you are wrong and there is no changing their minds.



Quick poll:  How many people think the treatment of women in Taliban-era Afghanistan should have been changed years ago?

Wow.  We have a lot of fundamentalists here. 

Just because someone believes another culture to act immorally, does not mean they are fundamentalists.  It simply means they believe it to be wrong, which is a very normal sentiment.  The more extreme your conviction, the more quick you are to judge, but to the Taliban, by your logic, we are all fundamentalists.

I, personally, feel that if a culture wants to practice cannibalism, beat women, kill the elderly, and torture small animals, that's their problem.  I may not like it, but it is not my place to change it.

Yours,


benji


rofl   This is the type of thinking that I was talking about.   I expressed what was clearly an opinion and not subject to proof (cause I am entitled to my opinion) and it gets taken out of context and turned into something that it isn't.  Instead I should have asked Benji what my opinion should have been I guess.   Who knows.


OK  then lets go back to your logic.   As I said  "ALL TO MANY"   to me that is more than one.  Then I said "MOST OF THESE"  to me that is more than 1/2.   Then I said "IN MY OPINION".   Sooooooooo   Exactly where specifically is the logic error in my opinion - or am I not entitled to it?

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