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RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 4:21:57 PM

gooddogbenji

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From: Toronto
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

The problem as I see it, is that all to many people try to impose their set of morals upon the rest of the world. Most of these are the religious fundamentalists in my opinion. They are right and you are wrong and there is no changing their minds.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

OK then lets go back to your logic. As I said "ALL TO MANY" to me that is more than one. Then I said "MOST OF THESE" to me that is more than 1/2. Then I said "IN MY OPINION". Sooooooooo Exactly where specifically is the logic error in my opinion - or am I not entitled to it?

You are saying that more than half the people who judge another culture and try to impose their beliefs on them are religious fundamentalists. I think that most of Europe and North America supported the war in Afghanistan's result in improving the standards of living for women there, which to me is imposing our beliefs on them.

So, more than 50% of the western world supported change in Afghanistan, and 50% of those are fundamentalists. Meaning at least 25% of the western world is made up of religious fundamentalists.

That does it. I'm getting out my tinfoil hat so I can get blown up.

And now I'm done with this debate, as I have a far more intelligent debate to conduct with the retarded squirrel in my window.

Yours,

benji

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(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 21

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 4:23:42 PM

Morpheus07

Posts: 89
Joined: 4/29/2006
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Benji, you are no doubt a funny young man, and I'm sure quite the submissive. But I am damn sure glad that you aren't in charge of anything!

quote:

I, personally, feel that if a culture wants to practice cannibalism, beat women, kill the elderly, and torture small animals, that's their problem. I may not like it, but it is not my place to change it.

< Message edited by Morpheus07 -- 7/29/2006 4:25:46 PM >

_____________________________

Its a case of mind over matter, "I don't mind, because you don't matter!"

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Post #: 22

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 4:27:23 PM

gooddogbenji

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
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I'm going to guess you're referring to this quote:

quote:

I, personally, feel that if a culture wants to practice cannibalism, beat women, kill the elderly, and torture small animals, that's their problem. I may not like it, but it is not my place to change it.

I am, actually in charge of quite a bit. And that which I am in charge of I run well, because it is my job to do so. However, just as I don't tell marketing how to do their job, I don't feel it right to tell the Chinese their treatment of people is not up to par.

That's just me, I mind my own business.

Yours,

benji

Edited to add: Had you removed the rest of the quote before I replied, you would have saved me guesswork. However, this way I could prove my own brilliance by guessing right. So thank you.

< Message edited by gooddogbenji -- 7/29/2006 4:28:30 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 4:30:48 PM

Morpheus07

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Joined: 4/29/2006
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Yes, and brilliant...

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Its a case of mind over matter, "I don't mind, because you don't matter!"

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Post #: 24

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 4:40:12 PM

KenDckey

Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

I'm going to guess you're referring to this quote:

quote:

I, personally, feel that if a culture wants to practice cannibalism, beat women, kill the elderly, and torture small animals, that's their problem. I may not like it, but it is not my place to change it.

I am, actually in charge of quite a bit. And that which I am in charge of I run well, because it is my job to do so. However, just as I don't tell marketing how to do their job, I don't feel it right to tell the Chinese their treatment of people is not up to par.

That's just me, I mind my own business.

Yours,

benji

Edited to add: Had you removed the rest of the quote before I replied, you would have saved me guesswork. However, this way I could prove my own brilliance by guessing right. So thank you.

miud my own business hmmmmmmmmmmm

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Post #: 25

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 4:53:08 PM

gooddogbenji

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

miud my own business hmmmmmmmmmmm

Awwwwwww.... Honeybunchkin's upset! C'mere! Want a hug?

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 26

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 5:09:14 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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KenDckey, benji, we seem to be in general agreement here of which I'm rather glad. KenDckey, you and I are on the same path regarding new cultutes. I know then I can learn from everyone I meet and hiow exciting is it when you start learning about a new culture and their customs first hand...

It is interesting hgow many people refer to judging. To judge means that you are making a decision about that person or persons. It may be a matter of semantics, but I prefer to see such things as comparing another's morals/values with my own to see what common ground we have. It is easy and mure pleasant to agree to disagree rather than to opose..

_____________________________

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Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to KenDckey)

Post #: 27

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 6:13:11 PM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

miud my own business hmmmmmmmmmmm

Awwwwwww.... Honeybunchkin's upset! C'mere! Want a hug?

Yours,

benji

Naw I don't need a hug from you, but thanks for the offer. And I am not even mad. I just think it is funny that you take someone's opinion and judge it. You know, people are entitled to their opinion. If you wanted to debate mine, then fine, I have no problem with that. But to judge it, welllllll that is when I get on my horse. I have respect for people who respect opinions, not for people who judge them.

To me it is like common sense. The guy wouldn't have gotten hurt if he had used common sense is a phrase I hear a lot. The problem is, common sense is in my opinion made up of one's lifes experiences (I believe the National Safety Council and OSHA Consultation would agree with me). Soooooo I base my opinions on my life experiences and you on yours. But to tell me mine are faulty is really silly and in my opinion shows ones ignorance or in my opinion one where someone is trying to tell me how to think (which is the way I took it here). I put my life on the line for the right to think and you and no one else is going to take it from me till you either kill me or I just go ahead and die.

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Post #: 28

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/29/2006 6:26:12 PM

KenDckey

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Joined: 5/31/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

It is easy and mure pleasant to agree to disagree rather than to opose..

Amen

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 29

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/30/2006 5:58:20 AM

twicehappy

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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IB (from one crazy bastard to another, lol, i loved that one) i just posted this under the religion thread but it also belongs here.

I was born and raised a Celtic (my granny used the old word "Keltoi") Druid. For me this is both a moral and spiritual code. It is what i was raised with.

The Celtic Virtues of honor, loyalty, hospitality, honesty, justice and courage. "Daven" briefly describes the Virtues as follows:

"Briefly stated the virtue of Honor requires one to adhere to their oaths and do the right thing, even if it will ultimately hurt others or oneself in the process.

A Druid is obligated to remain true to friends, family and leaders thus exhibiting the virtue of Loyalty.

Hospitality demands that a Druid be a good host when guests are under one's roof.

Honesty insists that one tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to yourself, your gods and your people.

Justice desires the Druid understands everyone has an inherent worth and that an assault to that worth demands recompense in one form or another.

Courage for the Druid does not always wear a public face; it is standing-strong-in-the-face-of-adversity, alone or with companions. Sometimes Courage is getting up and going about a daily routine when pain has worn one down without complaint or demur."

My Master wrote his piece on his moral code and in it he stated that killing is wrong yet that if someone killed a family member he would seek revenge. He seemed to think this was a violation of sorts of his previously stated belief that killing was inherently wrong.

To my code it would not only be right it would be justice.

Perhaps Master is a bit more druid than he thinks.......

I do not force my morals on anyone but i do not compromise them either irregardless the cost. If someone does not understand them i will explain but i will not alter the path dictated to me by my conscience.

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 30

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/30/2006 6:50:45 AM

agirl

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Joined: 6/14/2004
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Hello IronBear,

At this moment in time, I truly can't say whether it's *right or wrong* for us to *judge* .......it's something we do anyway, to a greater or lesser degree. I think if we can try VERY hard to place an emphasis on *understanding* it pushes our focus AWAY from judging quite so much, in a negative way.

I don't think we CAN force our morality on other people, we can force them to *put up with it* or *abide by it* BY force , maybe,....... but *take it as their own*?..No.

In principle, I don't want anyone elses *ideas of morality* forced on me, now, as an adult....but, weren't my OWN ideas of morality *forced on me* to a certain extent by exposure to them?

I, equally, would not like to be in a vacuum, where I had NO chance to consider, explore or question my own thinking....... and so much of the way I think now is a result of being challenged.

SO, maybe I'm saying that it's not a matter of *right or wrong* but whether it's a good thing to be challenged this way; giving different or alternative ways of seeing things.

Regards, agirl

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 31

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/30/2006 8:05:40 AM

agirl

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If you think that killing is morally wrong...then doesn't it remain * wrong* , by your OWN morals?

I'm not quite sure how something that was *wrong* one day, can be *right* by dint of what happens to us personally, the next. Not in a moral sense.

agirl

(in reply to twicehappy)

Post #: 32

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/30/2006 11:13:41 AM

twicehappy

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

If you think that killing is morally wrong...then doesn't it remain * wrong* , by your OWN morals?

I'm not quite sure how something that was *wrong* one day, can be *right* by dint of what happens to us personally, the next. Not in a moral sense.

It would not be my moral code or my view of my moral code that would have changed; it would be my perception of the worth of the murderer that had changed.

From my statement on my view of justice:

Justice desires the Druid understands everyone has an inherent worth and that an assault to that worth demands recompense in one form or another.

It states quite clearly my belief on the subject, everyone has inherent worth and any assault to that worth demands recompense.

To state it a little clearer no one should kill but if someone does they shall pay for this killing with their own life. In committing murder they forfeit their basic protection from murder.

More than that whether or not i wished to kill this murderer, whether or not it gave me nightmares for the rest of my life, my honor would require that i do so, he has violated my oath, my code to be loyal to and care for my family.

Briefly stated the virtue of Honor requires one to adhere to their oaths and do the right thing, even if it will ultimately hurt others or oneself in the process.

Personally i see little wrong with the code of Hamarabi with few exceptions.

http://eawc.evansville.edu/anthology/hammurabi.htm

To the way of thinking that i was raised by if a man stole bread because his family was hungry and he had no skill or land for growing wheat his punishment would be to learn the skill of growing wheat and working for his own ground to grow it on; but if he stole bread because he was lazy, refusing to use his skills to grow or buy bread then he would be driven from the village or lose the thieving hand.

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 33

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/30/2006 12:21:49 PM

agirl

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I may not be reading this as you meant it to be be.....but it smacks of an *eye for an eye* ...which has never made a great deal of sense to me, apart from the limited satisfaction of revenge.

agirl

(in reply to twicehappy)

Post #: 34

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/30/2006 1:51:57 PM

twicehappy

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I may not be reading this as you meant it to be be.....but it smacks of an *eye for an eye* ...which has never made a great deal of sense to me, apart from the limited satisfaction of revenge.

Close, a person who murders without just cause (just cause; i.e. taking the life of one who murders without cause, or the life of a rapist, or child molester) is a person who has made themselves unworthy of their own life. As a whole society is better off without them.

Jesus may have preached turn the other cheek but i worship older and more practical gods.

If someone takes my eye and i turn the other cheek to offer him my other eye shortly i will be blind. If i cut him down where he stands not only have i saved my other eye but most likely the eyes of many others as well.

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 35

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/30/2006 1:52:11 PM

ScooterTrash

Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I may not be reading this as you meant it to be be.....but it smacks of an *eye for an eye* ...which has never made a great deal of sense to me, apart from the limited satisfaction of revenge.

agirl

I would suspect that this would fall more under the pretence of "deterrent", somewhat of an "If I do this, then this may be what happens to me". I regret that although that is the goal of capital punishment, there are those who apparently do not value their own lives enough to be let their own personal behavior be swayed by such a consequence. I don't know if retaliating would bring on a warm fuzzy feeling of revenge, but they certainly wouldn't do it again. This would most likely not be so much of a moral issue, as it is an attempt to simply force someone to conform to what most (this is subjective I know) societies deem appropriate behavior. I could feel something is morally wrong for me to do, yet accept it if was the law of the land...I suspect this may be many peoples attitudes and is why it can be accepted as long as the blood is not on their hands. "eye for a eye by proxy", I suppose.

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(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 36

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/30/2006 2:10:21 PM

tinkerbellKH

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I recently learned a very important lesson about moral and morality. a serious lesson that cost me my collar, house to live in, and so much more.

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Post #: 37

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/30/2006 2:39:14 PM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I may not be reading this as you meant it to be be.....but it smacks of an *eye for an eye* ...which has never made a great deal of sense to me, apart from the limited satisfaction of revenge.

Close, a person who murders without just cause (just cause; i.e. taking the life of one who murders without cause, or the life of a rapist, or child molester) is a person who has made themselves unworthy of their own life. As a whole society is better off without them.

Jesus may have preached turn the other cheek but i worship older and more practical gods.

If someone takes my eye and i turn the other cheek to offer him my other eye shortly i will be blind. If i cut him down where he stands not only have i saved my other eye but most likely the eyes of many others as well.

I don't worship gods at all, so will avoid that part altogether.

If someone takes my eye, I wouldn't *offer my other* either....lol

I would be wary of being in a position to have to judge what was a *just cause* for murder in the first instance. Who am *I* to decide that? It's all dangerous ground, as far as I'm concerned without citing particular *instances* and being specific.

agirl

(in reply to twicehappy)

Post #: 38

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/30/2006 3:56:19 PM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Ironbear,

I think the main issue is we're all operating independently of each other. In an ideal world the world would have a governing body that acted out of a desire to civilise the world and lay the foundations for us to co-exist in peace. As we act out of self-interest we have no common view on what is right and wrong and thus we argue about which society is most moralistic.

In an ideal world there wouldn't be a need for government.

'In an ideal world the world would have a governing body that acted out of a desire to civilise the world and lay the foundations for us to co-exist in peace.'

Once the British government nationalised the Empire and encouraged duty to the Empire and its peoples, to stop the corruption of private companies that built the Empire, this is exactly what it tried to do. At the time it was seen as highly moral and ethical thing to do. You have said in another thread that the British Empire is something to be ashamed of, yet you say in an ideal world you believe in its objectives. The problem you have is that while you think you know what is moral today, it may not be moral tomorrow.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 39

RE: Morals and Morality - 7/30/2006 8:17:48 PM

IronBear

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Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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The "Eye For an Eye" philosophy can I feel be separated into two groups. group one is emotionally charged and is labeled Revenge. Those of us who have either a family or cultural history of feuding and taking revenge, (Sicilian and Celts come to mind here) such actions are justice for them.. The second group which as a Pagan Priest with hereditary ties into Druidism, I agree with, know and understand may be seen as Debt Payment. Everything we do has a price. Sooner or later we all must pay the price for our actions. There must be a balance in all aspects and forma of life, death and growth....

< Message edited by IronBear -- 7/30/2006 8:20:45 PM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)

Post #: 40

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