JVoV
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Joined: 3/9/2015
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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
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ORIGINAL: JVoV
We are going to win, eventually. Because it is the right and necessary thing. But Colorado has made that decision for themselves already, by putting the protections into place. Not all States have. So the case before the court now isn't as big a deal as it's being made out to be.
In the gay marriage decision, Justice Kennedy wrote that there would need to be a great deal of discussion about what that decision would mean for people of faith. I don't think the Court would believe that enough time has passed yet. If anything, I think the Right jumped the gun on pushing this case so soon.
The current case has nothing to do with a wedding ceremony at all, since the couple had to go to Massachusetts to get married at the time. Yup, this incident occurred before 2015's gay marriage ruling. This cake was simply for a reception after the fact.
Okay, I can stick with the idea of "cake".
Those first two sentences are exactly why I said "it depends upon how the author is defining "win".
If "win" means the government (courts) is used as a way to force millions of people to contradict tenets of their faith or be out of a job, that's not a "win", from where I sit. In fact, to my mind, the government (courts) even hearing a case that seeks to force a person to do that is unconstitutional and un-American (because it's unconstitutional).
The government is not establishing quotas on how many gays we need next year, only allowing so many percent of boys to be hetero. The government is also not forcing anyone to be in a same-sex marriage against their will.
This is a decision concerning commerce, within the State of Colorado, where sexual orientation is protected from discrimination. The government has the authority to make laws such as this, because neither does it violate any religious ceremony or practice, it does not interfere in any belief system. Moreso, it applies to everyone, regardless of religion, thus not targeting a single group.
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A couple of years ago, JVoV, you said you'd rather take your business elsewhere, to a bakery that wanted your business. That's terrific! That's a great plan.
I don't think that's an accurate representation of when I posted the clip from Pretty Woman. And you'll notice in those those scenes, once Julia does find suitable clothes, after spending an obscene amount of Edward's money, she does return to the shop that refused to serve her in the first place.
Yes, I want to do business with shops and people that respect me as a customer. But that's not always an option. I live 17 miles from the nearest Walmart. There are 2 bakeries that do wedding cakes another 10 miles from there (in two different directions). Of course, there are gay-owned and gay-friendly bakeries if I make the drive across county lines and go to Orlando, about an hour and a half drive, or so.
You see why I do as much shopping online as I possibly can.
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Why should people have to choose between their God and their career? I don't think it seems right. I know you've made a statement similar to that, in the past. I won't pretend that's your view now so, I'll ask: You know that there are all kinds of people, out in the world, who are just looking for a reason to be offended (so gays aren't immune to that). So, is it important enough to make sure that none of those "professional victims" are ever "offended" to the point where we should restrict job opportunities, based upon religious beliefs?
I believe you're overstating the possible damage done to people of faith. It's not like they'll be instantly smited. No one is preventing them from singing their favorite hymns or Christian rock songs as they work on the cake. No one is preventing any prayers they feel a need to express to their Lord. None of the Ten Commandments need be broken.
So the Christian conversation about gay wedding cakes should not be all that different from Christian conversations concerning commerce of any type.
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If I'm Christian and against same-sex marriage, but I am studying baking and hope to some day, open up my own shop, I should re-think my choice of career? That's a hell of a precedent to set, I think.
What's to stop the situation from becoming: "Well, you're a Christian so, I don't think this job is right for you" coming from an H.R. manager, sitting across a table from me?
If I'm Christian, then it is up to me to avoid temptation and sin, is it not? Should I trust the government to protect my immortal soul and have no personal responsibility for it of my own? Praise God that we're in America, where our government cannot dictate our religion at all.
Christians, and in fact people of every faith enjoy protections guaranteed by our federal government against discrimination in employment practices because of that religion. When sexuality can be and is actually used to deny or terminate employment for LGBTQ+ people because most States do not protect their rights in a similar manner. There is no talk of removing those protections for religions, so your argument concerning HR is completely invalid, as well as hypocritical. Because a Christian-owned business can certainly refuse to hire the gay guy, or fire him if they find out.
Isn't one of the tenets of Christianity to do unto others as you'd have done to you?
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At what point do we say that people have an iron-clad guarantee of a right to not have to choose between earning a living and going to hell?
Better yet, at what point do we agree that the government (courts) shouldn't be involved in forcing that decision upon them?
You'll find no guarantee you can trust. And Christianity tells you not to look for one.
Do I need to quote Revelation and that whole mark of the beast thing?
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RE: An American dialogue - 
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