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RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 2:07:21 PM   
Danemora


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Danemora
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Danemora
P.S. Im Christian myself and Id gladly make a cake for a gay couple. So I could easily be a Christian small business owner not in need of escape. Its possible to be a Christian and function spiritually in society.

Why should you be allowed to choose how to exercise your religious beliefs but others aren't allowed to choose their own?


As Ive REPEATEDLY said in this thread, a small business owner can do whatever the hell they want to do...so long as it does not violate laws. Why is that so hard to understand or comprehend? If you want to break the law, deal with the consequences. Period. End of story. Fini
Nowhere did I say you cant practice your religious beliefs. You quoted me, so we can both see the words I wrote. As long as your religious beliefs do not violate the law, you've got nothing to worry about. Please do not read shit into what I wrote that is not there. Id appreciate you not putting words in my mouth I didnt write. I dont do that to you. Its only fair to ask that of you in return.


YOU stated what YOU can do as a CHRISTIAN. YOU stated that YOU could be a CHRISTIAN SBO and not need to escape. You imply that other Christians can do the same. You are attempting to define their exercising of religion according to how YOU see fit. Don't define their religious worship. Define your own and let them define their own.





I quoted you and you were saying that there was no place for Christians to escape or disappear. And you are still attempting to put words in my mouth that I did not say. Ive seen you throw an absolute shit fit and threaten people with legal action for folks here doing that to you, so why you get a free pass to do it to others is beyond me.

I implied nothing beyond my being a Christian who doesnt give a shit if Im baking a cake for a gay couple or a biker gang. If you want to get offended by that or Ive insulted your Christianity, I feel for you. I took the Christ part of Christian pretty seriously and I figure if Jesus practiced love and tolerance, its good enough for me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: Danemora

But its 10 years later, so what used to happen isnt always guaranteed to be the same today. Im fine with SBOs running their businesses any way they wish...so long as it doesnt violate City/County/State/Federal laws they fall under.


It is ten years later. So, what's changed? Oh, only which people are being told: "if you don't fucking like it, move!"

I might add that most business laws (even for small businesses) come from ... drum roll, please ... the FEDERAL government; meaning there's no place for Christian business owners to go to "escape" (or disappear, depending upon intent).








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(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 2:12:11 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Danemora
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Danemora
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Danemora
P.S. Im Christian myself and Id gladly make a cake for a gay couple. So I could easily be a Christian small business owner not in need of escape. Its possible to be a Christian and function spiritually in society.

Why should you be allowed to choose how to exercise your religious beliefs but others aren't allowed to choose their own?

As Ive REPEATEDLY said in this thread, a small business owner can do whatever the hell they want to do...so long as it does not violate laws. Why is that so hard to understand or comprehend? If you want to break the law, deal with the consequences. Period. End of story. Fini
Nowhere did I say you cant practice your religious beliefs. You quoted me, so we can both see the words I wrote. As long as your religious beliefs do not violate the law, you've got nothing to worry about. Please do not read shit into what I wrote that is not there. Id appreciate you not putting words in my mouth I didnt write. I dont do that to you. Its only fair to ask that of you in return.

YOU stated what YOU can do as a CHRISTIAN. YOU stated that YOU could be a CHRISTIAN SBO and not need to escape. You imply that other Christians can do the same. You are attempting to define their exercising of religion according to how YOU see fit. Don't define their religious worship. Define your own and let them define their own.


I quoted you and you were saying that there was no place for Christians to escape. And you are still attempting to put words in my mouth that I did not say. Ive seen you throw a shit fot and threaten people with legal action for folks here doing that to you, so why you get a free pass to do it to others is beyond me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
quote:

ORIGINAL: Danemora
But its 10 years later, so what used to happen isnt always guaranteed to be the same today. Im fine with SBOs running their businesses any way they wish...so long as it doesnt violate City/County/State/Federal laws they fall under.


It is ten years later. So, what's changed? Oh, only which people are being told: "if you don't fucking like it, move!"
I might add that most business laws (even for small businesses) come from ... drum roll, please ... the FEDERAL government; meaning there's no place for Christian business owners to go to "escape" (or disappear, depending upon intent).


You've mixed your DS's, Danemora.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Danemora)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 2:29:18 PM   
Danemora


Posts: 752
Joined: 10/9/2006
Status: offline 		Im in the middle of a DS sandwich, eh? 😊 I think I just typed in the Fast Reply box...so it put me as replying to you and not to Michael as I intended. This should have been a reply to him...but based on what we got to talking about. Sorry about the confusion on my part.

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 2:38:02 PM   
JVoV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
I don't think there is room to compromise on this one.
What is it that a person of any faith has to lose? A few Hail Mary's? A Lord's Prayer before bed that they should've done anyway? Are those same things not required for going against other scripture by refusing service?
What do some homos have to lose if they can't get a wedding cake? Well, practically anything related to the wedding and reception, and the life they want to lead together afterwards. The jeweler for their rings, the tailors for their suits, the venue, a florist, a photographer, an organist, a caterer with plenty of staff for the reception, bartenders, the alcohol itself, the band or dj... The b&b they book for the honeymoon, the jobs they go back to on Monday with a new wedding ring on, the house they're trying to buy or have custom built...
And it all starts with a cake.

At least be real with your complaint.
What do homos have to lose if they can't get a wedding cake from Masterpiece Cakeshop? They stand to have nothing to lose, except a wedding cake made by MR. Phillips. Is his cakeshop the only bakery they can go to to get a beautiful wedding cake? I'm going to bet they can get a wedding cake, a beautifully created wedding cake in their area, outside of Masterpiece Cakeshop.
So, no. They don't have anything to lose, really.
How about trying, just for a moment, to allow someone else to decide how important their Christianity is for themselves, instead of you trying to do it for them, k?

Then please explain the religious consequences for baking a gay wedding cake. So much of what the Bible teaches is at odds with American laws and values in this age that I do understand the need for Christians to cling to as much as they have left. But I also understand that forgiveness through Christ is never out of reach.


You don't give a rat's ass about their beliefs. Your condescending attitude demonstrates that. "Forgiveness through Christ is never out of reach." You realize that to be forgiven, you have to be repentant, right? Choosing to do something wrong with the attitude that you can just ask forgiveness later isn't being repentant.


You seem to assume I have no religious beliefs of my own. Or that I don't strive to be a good Christian. That would be false.

As a Christian myself, I find the religious beliefs argument in this case difficult to swallow and morally offensive. I've already quoted scripture as to why. But here it is again:

Matthew 22
quote:

[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Love thy neighbor. Not love thy neighbors except Gary, cuz he's a freak. Just love thy neighbor.

quote:


quote:

But just as we cannot allow Shari'a law to hijack our country, neither can we allow Christian beliefs to continue to deny basic civil rights to GLBTQ+ Americans.


Basic rights? Is there a "basic civil right" to have a particular cake shop decorate a wedding cake? How about not letting government encroach on someone's right to exercise his religion? Noooo, can't have that.


There are State rights, and Colorado chose to provide protections for LGBTQ+ against discrimination. I believe that law is fair and just because it is evenly applied to everyone in the State, regardless of their religious beliefs.

There are so many reasons for people of faith to disapprove even a heterosexual marriage, and they are allowed to do so. But has there ever been a reported instance of those disapprovals resulting in a denial of service? Not since Jim Crowe laws allowed blacks and interracial couples to be denied. And yes, some chose to use their religious beliefs as their reasoning at the time.

quote:


quote:

I am being quite real in my complaint. If a single business has a valid excuse for denying service to any class of people, then every business has that same right. Christianity is the most common religion in our country, so it would not be a surprise if a solid majority of bakeries would be Christian-owned, and also choose to deny service. And it could spread to every business related to weddings, effectively becoming a great pain in the ass for gay couples to do business at all.


Do you really think there are no gay-owned bakeries? Really? And, a "solid majority" isn't "all," so there are still options, no? You want to play the "slippery slope" game? Will government have the authority to force a kosher or halal eatery to serve pork products, or non-kosher/halal foods? I got it!! How about we should be allowed to get Big Macs at Burger King (ok that's a bad example, as there is that Big King sandwich, but they chose to do it, and weren't forced to (for the save!)).

Should any church of a homosexual couple be forced to perform their wedding ceremony?

Be forced to? No.

quote:

I have no idea how many other bakeries are reasonably near Masterpiece that bake wedding cakes, nor the quality of any of them. But anywhere in America, competition could be right across the street, or 100 miles away.


So, you don't know? Considering it's less than 10 miles from Denver, I'm going to hazard a guess there are plenty (according to theknot.com, there are 64 within 10 miles of Lakewood, CO). Masterpiece may be the very best. But, that doesn't mean they have to break their faith for a homosexual couple's custom wedding cake.

Since it's not letting me link, here's the link: https://www.theknot.com/marketplace/wedding-cake-bakeries-lakewood-co?distance=within-10-miles&offset=30

The Market will take care of these things, anyway. It likely won't be as quick as government fiat, but it would be organic and, imo, the right way to have it happen. No one is forced to purchase anything there. If you go to theknot and to the Masterpiece Cakeshop page, you'll see a couple bad reviews based on their unwillingness to make a cake for a homosexual family celebration, and they aren't the only 5-star rated bakery in the 64 within 10 miles of Lakewood, CO.


It is wonderful to have options, and I'm sure the couple managed to find a cake in time. That does not negate the fact that the bakery violated Colorado's law.

quote:


In your opinion, homosexuals have a greater right to purchase a custom-created wedding cake from whomever they choose than a cake decorator's right to worship and exercise his religion as he sees fit. Get real.



No. In my opinion, homosexuals have been denied equal rights and opportunities for far too long, in many ways because of religious beliefs. To make certain that cannot continue, some protections must be provided for homosexuals, to defend their freedoms, especially as the country adjusts to gay marriage.

And it is especially important for government to protect minorities from being persecuted and ostracized by those claiming religious beliefs that may directly oppose that minority's right to live, much less any equality guaranteed by the Constitution.

And there is growing support of that belief. Twenty-two states plus Washington, D.C and Puerto Rico outlaw discrimination based on sexual orientation, and twenty states plus Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico outlaw discrimination based on gender identity or expression.

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 3:57:36 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


I think it was Bounty that mentioned before that "essential services" can't be denied. A wedding cake isn't an essential service, the slippery slope would likely not be very long at all. No one has the right to buy a custom wedding cake. That's not a civil right. The bakery will sell their basic wares to whoever walks through their doors and pays them. This is about a custom-decorated cake, though. It will be known where the cake came from and who decorated it. That's to be expected for people who decorate cakes.

Don't forget who you just asked. I mean, I'm all for the free market and freedom to trade and barter. Government forcing an establishment to make a custom creation that opposes the establishment's owners (and the guy who's actually going to be custom creating)religious beliefs is anathema to the freedom to trade and barter. Where's the limit on government encroachment?



Eating out at a restaurant is not essential either... would you like to be denied food because of your lifestyle... you do know it is against some religious beliefs. Imagine all the services that can easily be considered non essential or custom produced... Come on my friend people will deny services and most people will not be able to go to court where a judge will be hard pressed to determine what is non essential and what is not... Bottom line good honest citizens that just happen to have different beliefs than service providers will be denied. Would you like to go through life always aware someone has the right to provide you ...with just the essentials if you were gay. Would that not be less of a life to you? All because of religion that is not supposed to deny freedoms to others?... I understand we are starting from different points of view but I hope you will grow to understand the slippery slope as you call it is a long one.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/6/2017 4:43:30 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 4:11:57 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I will guarantee there are parts of rural Missouri where there is no doubt gays would be forced from town in order to live a full life... Yes in a urban area there would be much less of a problem but no one should have to face discrimination simply because of a lifestyle they have little to no control over.

You want to keep government out of your business... gays may want to keep bakers out of their private lives...enforced by the same type of government laws you dislike.

Would it not be much easier and fair to say... if you provide goods and services to the public you must provide to all legally standing citizens...rather than try to sort out various religious beliefs and figure out what they can and can't deny.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/6/2017 5:04:03 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 4:50:07 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		And how did a baker all of a sudden become the great artist... how is baking a cake any more artistic then a carpenter... a brick layer... a concrete contractor. What about a seamstress or tailor... on and on with with little thought.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/6/2017 5:03:41 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 4:55:18 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		FR

the backlash against his business has included death threats and harrassment, he stated...
“We are struggling just to make ends meet and keep the shop afloat.”

“It’s hard to believe that the government is forcing me choose between providing for my family and my employees, and violating my relationship with God,” Phillips said.
The government didnt force him to choose his decision to put his family, employees in danger.
He did, he put them up over his relationship with "god" His belief, is just as much endangering them as the"govmnt".
He can have his relationship with god all he wishes.
Discrimination runs rampant with him and gods followers like him.
Against gays, mooselems, womens autonomy and a multitude of other sins.

This is a reuters piece about questions raised by the SCOTUS
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-baker/pivotal-justice-kennedy-poses-tough-questions-in-gay-wedding-case-idUSKBN1DZ0H7

Pivotal Justice Kennedy poses tough questions in gay wedding case
Lawrence Hurley

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday appeared sharply divided in the closely watched case of a Christian baker who refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple, with pivotal Justice Anthony Kennedy voicing concerns about endorsing discrimination against gay people but also about anti-religious bias.

The nine justices -- five conservatives and four liberals -- heard an intense, almost 90-minute argument in the dispute over whether certain businesses can refuse to serve gay couples if they oppose same-sex marriage for religious reasons.

The case involving Jack Phillips, a baker who runs Masterpiece Cakeshop in Denver’s suburb of Lakewood and turned away gay couple David Mullins and Charlie Craig in 2012, pitted Colorado’s anti-discrimination law against rights to freedom of speech and expression under the U.S. Constitution’s First Amendment.

Kennedy, an 81-year-old champion of gay rights and free speech who wrote the landmark 2015 ruling legalizing same-sex marriage nationwide, did not definitively indicate how he would vote in the ruling due by the end of June, posing tough questions to both sides.

He raised concerns about a decision siding with the baker that would give a green light to discrimination against gay people.

“It means that there’s basically an ability to boycott gay marriages,” said Kennedy, a conservative who sometimes sides with the court’s four liberals in major cases on divisive social issues.

The court’s liberals would likely side with him on that point, with several justices citing a range of other creative professionals who could deny service to gay customers if the baker wins, as some florists and wedding photographers already have done.

The baker’s lawyers at the conservative Christian advocacy group Alliance Defending Freedom argued that creating a custom cake is a form of free expression protected by the Constitution. Lawyers for Mullins and Craig said it the baker’s action was simply unlawful discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Liberal Justice Elena Kagan wondered about whether a hairstylist, chef or a makeup artist could refuse service, claiming their services are also speech protected by the Constitution.

“Why is there no speech (rights) in creating a wonderful hairdo?” Kagan asked.

But Kennedy also asked whether the Colorado civil rights commission that concluded that Phillips had violated state law was biased against religion, which could indicate he could yet side with the baker.

Conservative members of the court, including Chief Justice John Roberts, appeared more sympathetic to the baker in one of the biggest cases of the court’s current nine-month term. Roberts asked whether a Catholic nonprofit organization providing free legal services should be forced to take on issues that conflict with its religious stances.

Phillips is appealing a state court ruling that he violated a Colorado anti-discrimination law that bars businesses from refusing service based on race, sex, marital status or sexual orientation.

‘AFFRONT TO THE GAY COMMUNITY’

Expressing his concerns about anti-gay discrimination, Kennedy mentioned the possibility of a baker putting a sign in his window saying he would not make cakes for gay weddings.

“And you would not think that an affront to the gay community?” he asked Solicitor General Noel Francisco, a lawyer for the Trump administration, which has backed Phillips.

Kennedy’s comments about the Colorado Civil Rights Commission’s handling of the case were more supportive of the baker. Kennedy said there was evidence of “hostility to religion” and questioned whether that panel’s decision should be allowed to stand.

“Tolerance is essential in a free society. Tolerance is most meaningful when it’s mutual,” Kennedy said. But the commission was not “tolerant or respectful” of Phillips, he added.

Former commissioner Diann Rice said at a 2014 hearing that “freedom of religion, and religion, has been used to justify all kinds of discrimination throughout history, whether it be slavery, whether it be the Holocaust.”

Hundreds of demonstrators on both sides of the dispute rallied outside the white marble courthouse. Supporters of Phillips waved signs that read, “We got your back Jack.” As Mullins and Craig made their way into the courthouse, the two men led their supporters in chants of “Love Wins.”

After the arguments, Mullins told reporters the couple’s snub by Phillips made them feel mortified and humiliated, like “second-class citizens in our society.”

Mullins and Craig are represented by the American Civil Liberties Union, which has argued that Phillips’ legal team is advocating for a “license to discriminate” that could have broad repercussions beyond gay rights.

Phillips told reporters that the backlash against his business after his refusal has included death threats and harassment, adding, “We are struggling just to make ends meet and keep the shop afloat.”

“It’s hard to believe,” Phillips said, “that the government is forcing me to choose between providing for my family and my employees, and violating my relationship with God.”

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 5:03:19 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I am not a Bible scholar but did the word of the Christian God say to his followers... deny food and pleasure of life to those fags? I would think a God of Mercy would say... feed all no matter their beliefs. Hell... I made them I'll take care of them I don't need your help...after all I made you too.... are not all of you in my image and sinners... by the way since I made gays in my image... you calling me a FAG!...My God would say that.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/6/2017 5:58:01 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 5:09:56 PM   
JVoV


Posts: 3657
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: offline 		I think anybody that makes the news gets death threats anymore. Sad commentary on our culture.

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 5:20:00 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		sadly the death threat culture has been around for decades, but is far worse in the last decade.
epidemic is a better word.




_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 6:29:49 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
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posted twice

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 8:54:22 PM   
JVoV


Posts: 3657
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: offline 		1 Peter 2:17 New International Version (NIV)

quote:

Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.


Perhaps Christianity could use a Judge Judy of sorts, so that we're all on the same page.

It is certainly ok to believe that homosexuality is a sin. So many fun things are. But there is so much of The New Testament devoted to the concept of love one another, I don't understand how discrimination can be justified by a Christian.

It should also be mentioned that the 9th Commandment is "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour". Misrepresenting your reasons to discriminate, and blaming your religious views instead of personal bigotry seems like breaking that Commandment.

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: An American dialogue - 12/6/2017 9:09:22 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV

homosexuality is a sin




No it is not all right to say or believe it... people are created this way...there is no choice... Now this sexual preference is either the fault of scrambled instructions in the womb or God created them that way. Either of those ways are NOT SIN.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to JVoV)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: An American dialogue - 12/7/2017 12:53:29 AM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No it is not all right to say or believe it... people are created this way...there is no choice... Now this sexual preference is either the fault of scrambled instructions in the womb or God created them that way. Either of those ways are NOT SIN.

Butch


It's not bad enough we have "word fascists" roaming around. You want to empower "Thought Police", too?

I will agree that most homosexuals are probably born that way. I know a few who absolutely believe they were "made that way" due to early childhood sexual abuse.

But that's not really the point I'm making. You have pronounced it "not all right" for people to think differently from you. I guess I'm wondering whence you derive your authority?





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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: An American dialogue - 12/7/2017 7:41:51 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Danemora
Im in the middle of a DS sandwich, eh? 😊 I think I just typed in the Fast Reply box...so it put me as replying to you and not to Michael as I intended. This should have been a reply to him...but based on what we got to talking about. Sorry about the confusion on my part.


It happens. I know from experience. No worries.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Danemora)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: An American dialogue - 12/7/2017 7:57:12 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JVoV
You seem to assume I have no religious beliefs of my own. Or that I don't strive to be a good Christian. That would be false.
As a Christian myself, I find the religious beliefs argument in this case difficult to swallow and morally offensive. I've already quoted scripture as to why. But here it is again:
Matthew 22
quote:

[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Love thy neighbor. Not love thy neighbors except Gary, cuz he's a freak. Just love thy neighbor.


To be honest, I don't give a fuck what your beliefs are, or how you interpret Bible scriptures. Who gave you the right to define for someone else what their religious walk is? I suppose I could just walk up to my neighbor and start masturbating her, right? I mean, that's how I "love" myself....

quote:

quote:

quote:

But just as we cannot allow Shari'a law to hijack our country, neither can we allow Christian beliefs to continue to deny basic civil rights to GLBTQ+ Americans.

Basic rights? Is there a "basic civil right" to have a particular cake shop decorate a wedding cake? How about not letting government encroach on someone's right to exercise his religion? Noooo, can't have that.

There are State rights, and Colorado chose to provide protections for LGBTQ+ against discrimination. I believe that law is fair and just because it is evenly applied to everyone in the State, regardless of their religious beliefs.
There are so many reasons for people of faith to disapprove even a heterosexual marriage, and they are allowed to do so. But has there ever been a reported instance of those disapprovals resulting in a denial of service? Not since Jim Crowe laws allowed blacks and interracial couples to be denied. And yes, some chose to use their religious beliefs as their reasoning at the time.


Outside of some arcane Mormon text (I'm assuming it's in the Book of Mormon), what religion denies people of color? Are there any verses in the Bible that oppose homosexuality?

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I am being quite real in my complaint. If a single business has a valid excuse for denying service to any class of people, then every business has that same right. Christianity is the most common religion in our country, so it would not be a surprise if a solid majority of bakeries would be Christian-owned, and also choose to deny service. And it could spread to every business related to weddings, effectively becoming a great pain in the ass for gay couples to do business at all.

Do you really think there are no gay-owned bakeries? Really? And, a "solid majority" isn't "all," so there are still options, no? You want to play the "slippery slope" game? Will government have the authority to force a kosher or halal eatery to serve pork products, or non-kosher/halal foods? I got it!! How about we should be allowed to get Big Macs at Burger King (ok that's a bad example, as there is that Big King sandwich, but they chose to do it, and weren't forced to (for the save!)).
Should any church of a homosexual couple be forced to perform their wedding ceremony?

Be forced to? No.


Why not? I mean, they're only not doing them due to religious beliefs....

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I have no idea how many other bakeries are reasonably near Masterpiece that bake wedding cakes, nor the quality of any of them. But anywhere in America, competition could be right across the street, or 100 miles away.

So, you don't know? Considering it's less than 10 miles from Denver, I'm going to hazard a guess there are plenty (according to theknot.com, there are 64 within 10 miles of Lakewood, CO). Masterpiece may be the very best. But, that doesn't mean they have to break their faith for a homosexual couple's custom wedding cake.
Since it's not letting me link, here's the link: https://www.theknot.com/marketplace/wedding-cake-bakeries-lakewood-co?distance=within-10-miles&offset=30
The Market will take care of these things, anyway. It likely won't be as quick as government fiat, but it would be organic and, imo, the right way to have it happen. No one is forced to purchase anything there. If you go to theknot and to the Masterpiece Cakeshop page, you'll see a couple bad reviews based on their unwillingness to make a cake for a homosexual family celebration, and they aren't the only 5-star rated bakery in the 64 within 10 miles of Lakewood, CO.

It is wonderful to have options, and I'm sure the couple managed to find a cake in time. That does not negate the fact that the bakery violated Colorado's law.


The law could be an unConstitutional law, too. I'm sure the couple got a cake for their wedding. And, I bet they were damn happy with the cake they got (that is, they loved their wedding cake).

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In your opinion, homosexuals have a greater right to purchase a custom-created wedding cake from whomever they choose than a cake decorator's right to worship and exercise his religion as he sees fit. Get real.

No. In my opinion, homosexuals have been denied equal rights and opportunities for far too long, in many ways because of religious beliefs. To make certain that cannot continue, some protections must be provided for homosexuals, to defend their freedoms, especially as the country adjusts to gay marriage.


Don't disagree and then spell out what I said.

Did Masterpiece Cakeshop prevent the couple from getting married?

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And it is especially important for government to protect minorities from being persecuted and ostracized by those claiming religious beliefs that may directly oppose that minority's right to live, much less any equality guaranteed by the Constitution.
And there is growing support of that belief. Twenty-two states plus Washington, D.C and Puerto Rico outlaw discrimination based on sexual orientation, and twenty states plus Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico outlaw discrimination based on gender identity or expression.


Especially important? Um, no. It's important for government to protect the rights of all people. Period. Full stop. It's not "especially important" to protect minorities. That makes it more important to protect the rights of minorities over the rights of non-minorities. And, that, simply, is discriminatory. You can't see that what you're proposing is more discrimination?

Where, in the Constitution, does it say that people have a Constitutional right to buy a custom wedding cake at whatever bakery they so choose?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to JVoV)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: An American dialogue - 12/7/2017 8:02:06 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I think it was Bounty that mentioned before that "essential services" can't be denied. A wedding cake isn't an essential service, the slippery slope would likely not be very long at all. No one has the right to buy a custom wedding cake. That's not a civil right. The bakery will sell their basic wares to whoever walks through their doors and pays them. This is about a custom-decorated cake, though. It will be known where the cake came from and who decorated it. That's to be expected for people who decorate cakes.
Don't forget who you just asked. I mean, I'm all for the free market and freedom to trade and barter. Government forcing an establishment to make a custom creation that opposes the establishment's owners (and the guy who's actually going to be custom creating)religious beliefs is anathema to the freedom to trade and barter. Where's the limit on government encroachment?


Eating out at a restaurant is not essential either... would you like to be denied food because of your lifestyle... you do know it is against some religious beliefs. Imagine all the services that can easily be considered non essential or custom produced... Come on my friend people will deny services and most people will not be able to go to court where a judge will be hard pressed to determine what is non essential and what is not... Bottom line good honest citizens that just happen to have different beliefs than service providers will be denied. Would you like to go through life always aware someone has the right to provide you ...with just the essentials if you were gay. Would that not be less of a life to you? All because of religion that is not supposed to deny freedoms to others?... I understand we are starting from different points of view but I hope you will grow to understand the slippery slope as you call it is a long one.
Butch


1. A custom wedding cake is nowhere near the same as eating out at a restaurant.
2. But, guess what. I'll find a place that has no issues with it. I'm not tied to any one place so that I have to be able to eat there.
3. You're damn sure I'll let my friends know about the establishment's attitude towards my lifestyle. The Market will take care of what needs taking care of, so long as we let it work.

I'm not enough of a victim to think I'm entitled to anything I can't provide for myself. Everything else is a transaction that I'm not entitled to if the part on the other end of that transaction doesn't agree.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: An American dialogue - 12/7/2017 8:05:02 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
You want to keep government out of your business... gays may want to keep bakers out of their private lives...enforced by the same type of government laws you dislike.


You realize how stupid that comment was, don't you? If a gay couple wants to keep a baker out of their private lives, perhaps they shouldn't invite/hire a baker to custom create the centerpiece cake for their wedding.

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Would it not be much easier and fair to say... if you provide goods and services to the public you must provide to all legally standing citizens...rather than try to sort out various religious beliefs and figure out what they can and can't deny.
Butch


Easier? Sure. It would also be easier to have every establishment offer the same thing for the same price all the time.

But, that sure don't make it right.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: An American dialogue - 12/7/2017 8:07:47 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
And how did a baker all of a sudden become the great artist... how is baking a cake any more artistic then a carpenter... a brick layer... a concrete contractor. What about a seamstress or tailor... on and on with with little thought.
Butch


The last phrase perfectly describes your post.

All the trades you mentioned incorporate artistic talent. I'd also support their right to not custom create something celebrating an event their religious beliefs opposed.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 160
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