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RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/5/2006 10:13:09 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

WyrdRich,

It seems to me your post is based on your belief that unemployment/lack of success is a result of personal drive. I can't agree with this.

Let's look at it another way. Two people have exactly the same drive. One is born in the black community in New Orleans and one is born in high-society LA. One will have greater success as a result of greater opportunity. Also, I don't know the answer to this so I'm asking the question rather than trying to make a point - in all honesty, what is the chance of a non-white of high intelligence born in one of the poorest communities in say Detriot, New York or Philadelphia climbing the social ladder? They can't pay for education and many of their friends are involved in petty crime due to a lack of opportunity. What is the percentage chance of such a person succeeding (in terms of how we define success)?

Regards


Can I ask you a personal question?

If so answer if not just ignore.

Have you actually ever been poor, or lived in the "ghetto", or is all of this from theory, because I can't believe someone that had actual experience among the poor would believe what you put forth.

Poor is having holes in your bathroom floor, and the sewer backing up. Poor is eating mustard sandwiches, because sometimes there's nothing else. Poor is wearing shoes with holes in the soles and a couple sizes to big. Poor, is washing your clothes in the sink because you need the money for gas. Poor is seeing your breath when you wake in the winter because your house doesn't have much insulation. Poor is walking 10 miles to work because you can't afford a 70 dollar starter.You want more examples, those are the nicer ones.

Every one of those, I have lived through, and never did I blame it on someone else, except when I was a small kid I blamed it on my parents, because I didn't have the legal right to work. Now, within a couple weeks of graduating high school, under no supervision or help from parents, got a crap hole job for minimum wage. Moved from there to a better job, from there to college, from there to a better job, from there to own business. It's quite frankly completely offensive when someone starts blowing this line, that people can't control themselves and select their outcomes. You speak of people like they are automatons, simply do x and y happens. LOL. It doesn't work that way. You can throw all the money you want at the poor problem, alot of the poor will just drink it, or smoke it.  You can't give opportunity to someone that doesn't want to do anything. And you can't keep opportunity from someone that wants it. Sure, if my daddy was a millionaire I might be more successful, but also I might not be because I wouldn't have a fear of failure. What's the point of working if you will always be clothed, fed, and cared for. Most wouldn't. How many of those workers that drain septic tanks do it for the love of job, none, they do it so they don't starve.

Really, I think you must  have never been poor, or not been around poor people for extended periods of time. Some don't want to improve themselves, some do. Throwing money at it is highly unlikely to change those embedded in that life already. Quite simply, that is what they know, that is what they teach, and they don't want to improve themselves. Those who do move the fuck out. Really, unless you completely reject the environment, your screwed. Money doesn't do that, it's thinking about why these people are the way they are, and how can I not end up like that, which causes people to move out of the habits of being perpetually poor.

It's not hard to get a job. Repeat, It's not hard to get a job. I only ever didn't get one job I've ever interviewed for. And my single mother broken home parent, didn't even work for 10 years while I was growing, up. We probably had 12 different "Dads" (basicly guys that just want to fuck your mom, and buy you pizza or sodas). Can you see how it smells of bullshit, when I can't even imagine a less privileged childhood, and it was still easy enough to get a job.

Oh, I forgot I'm white. Well, assume that's it, that wouldn't explain why the white poor remain poor.

I'm gathering from your posts you have a sociology fetish, anyway it sounds like sociology 101 to me.



(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/5/2006 10:36:00 PM   
Kedikat


Posts: 680
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

WyrdRich,

It seems to me your post is based on your belief that unemployment/lack of success is a result of personal drive. I can't agree with this.

Let's look at it another way. Two people have exactly the same drive. One is born in the black community in New Orleans and one is born in high-society LA. One will have greater success as a result of greater opportunity. Also, I don't know the answer to this so I'm asking the question rather than trying to make a point - in all honesty, what is the chance of a non-white of high intelligence born in one of the poorest communities in say Detriot, New York or Philadelphia climbing the social ladder? They can't pay for education and many of their friends are involved in petty crime due to a lack of opportunity. What is the percentage chance of such a person succeeding (in terms of how we define success)?

Regards


Can I ask you a personal question?

If so answer if not just ignore.

Have you actually ever been poor, or lived in the "ghetto", or is all of this from theory, because I can't believe someone that had actual experience among the poor would believe what you put forth.

Poor is having holes in your bathroom floor, and the sewer backing up. Poor is eating mustard sandwiches, because sometimes there's nothing else. Poor is wearing shoes with holes in the soles and a couple sizes to big. Poor, is washing your clothes in the sink because you need the money for gas. Poor is seeing your breath when you wake in the winter because your house doesn't have much insulation. Poor is walking 10 miles to work because you can't afford a 70 dollar starter.You want more examples, those are the nicer ones.

Every one of those, I have lived through, and never did I blame it on someone else, except when I was a small kid I blamed it on my parents, because I didn't have the legal right to work. Now, within a couple weeks of graduating high school, under no supervision or help from parents, got a crap hole job for minimum wage. Moved from there to a better job, from there to college, from there to a better job, from there to own business. It's quite frankly completely offensive when someone starts blowing this line, that people can't control themselves and select their outcomes. You speak of people like they are automatons, simply do x and y happens. LOL. It doesn't work that way. You can throw all the money you want at the poor problem, alot of the poor will just drink it, or smoke it.  You can't give opportunity to someone that doesn't want to do anything. And you can't keep opportunity from someone that wants it. Sure, if my daddy was a millionaire I might be more successful, but also I might not be because I wouldn't have a fear of failure. What's the point of working if you will always be clothed, fed, and cared for. Most wouldn't. How many of those workers that drain septic tanks do it for the love of job, none, they do it so they don't starve.

Really, I think you must  have never been poor, or not been around poor people for extended periods of time. Some don't want to improve themselves, some do. Throwing money at it is highly unlikely to change those embedded in that life already. Quite simply, that is what they know, that is what they teach, and they don't want to improve themselves. Those who do move the fuck out. Really, unless you completely reject the environment, your screwed. Money doesn't do that, it's thinking about why these people are the way they are, and how can I not end up like that, which causes people to move out of the habits of being perpetually poor.

It's not hard to get a job. Repeat, It's not hard to get a job. I only ever didn't get one job I've ever interviewed for. And my single mother broken home parent, didn't even work for 10 years while I was growing, up. We probably had 12 different "Dads" (basicly guys that just want to fuck your mom, and buy you pizza or sodas). Can you see how it smells of bullshit, when I can't even imagine a less privileged childhood, and it was still easy enough to get a job.

Oh, I forgot I'm white. Well, assume that's it, that wouldn't explain why the white poor remain poor.

I'm gathering from your posts you have a sociology fetish, anyway it sounds like sociology 101 to me.





I have been from down to up and back again. I am white to borderline albino. Single mom, single kid. I got to the edge of going down to the bottom and back a few times. Legal troubles, fosterhome crap ( which luckily wasn't crap. JUST LUCK). Hungry and homless. The pressure was enormous! It is so easy to go a different way. I went through all sorts of shit that is supposedly the way to ruin. It was just in me at the time to not go that way. But it is and was HARD!! to not go that way. I was so lucky in so many ways to wander into the right people at the right time. Yes I had my mind and character, but it was still a balance. It matters who and what is there for you. Be it friends or the state, they all had a hand in guiding and helping me. If the state had not been there, maybe some of those friends might not have been there either. They might have already fallen, as they were on shakey ground too.
If there is no kind of safety net for people at the lowest level before the total fall, they can fall right through. There is a whole society of the underworld there to drag you in with open arms to feed on your mizery.
I was dancing on that line for a while. I know there was a whole system there that made just enough of a difference for me to keep on the upside.
You can say you pulled yourself up by your own bootstraps, but where did even the boots come from? Where did that first rung on the ladder come from?

It isn't always government of course. It's you, good people and time and work. But the society you are striving in is from the root of society, people, government, which so far is the root of the good people. None of us is alone, none of us makes it entirely on our own.
Thank the people who make society, who makes government and laws for your chance to excell.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/6/2006 2:37:51 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Of course there are individuals who have been extremely successful starting from nothing and vice versa. But, you can't make a judgement on society based on a few individuals. You need to look at trends that run right through the veins of society and it is an unavoidable trend that the majority of crime is committed by the poorest socio-economic groups in society. The answer lies in this fact. 

Alumbrado, I think you are probably aware that I'm not saying just throwing money at an area is the solution. There needs to be a complete re-think on how we run our societies. Do we really want to advocate self-interest and every man for himself? It is the whole culture of the Western world - the rampant consumerism, the importance placed upon material wealth, the complete lack of respect we have for each other - all of these and many other things create divisions in society and the result is the haves and the have nots. Regenerating an area will help reduce poverty and help reduce crime but we have a whole culture to put right. Sweden is quite interesting. They operate what they call a third way but is basically Capitalism with a reasonable distribution of wealth. They do not have anywhere near the same problems of anti-social behaviour that we have in Britain.

Need, I was born and raised in the council with the highest rate of unemployment in England so I know exactly what it is like to live in a run-down community that the Government has left to rot. All of the people who lived in that community are no different to the rest of the world in that given the opportunity they will thrive. The problem with the right is they just have no faith in people - it's always the same tired old lines "they're lazy", "they won't work" etc. Nonsense.

Regards

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/6/2006 2:45:44 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Level,

I can't agree that "your life is what you make of it".

Would you be the same person if you were born in Sudan or abused as a child or brought up in an area where crime was seen a better option for the material wealth we all crave than genuine employment or your parents didn't have the money to put you through education or your wife ran off with someone else and you struggled to cope or you were mugged and paralysed one night or you had an industrial accident at work that meant you were wheel chair bound - life is about circumstance and your whole life can change in a minute. Yes, hard work goes a long way but given the same opportunities in life I have no doubt that we would all work hard to realise those opportunities.

Regards

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/6/2006 2:52:42 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Need,

Your quote:

I'm gathering from your posts you have a sociology fetish, anyway it sounds like sociology 101 to me.

Classic. Yes, come to England and I'll spank you with my favourite Karl Marx thesis and if you're a good lad I may introduce Engels into the fun.

Actually, I've never been that interested in sociology more History.

Regards

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/6/2006 3:08:09 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Kedikat,

I couldn't agree more with your post. It is a fine line and strip away the material wealth that we're manipulated into thinking we need and we are one species with the same frailties. Thus, at some point, we will all need a considerable amount of help from others.

Let's hope that those who view life based on self-interest and can't show much charity to others don't surround themselves with similar types of people who are found wanting when the chips are down.

Regards

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/6/2006 10:15:02 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Of course there are individuals who have been extremely successful starting from nothing and vice versa. But, you can't make a judgement on society based on a few individuals. You need to look at trends that run right through the veins of society and it is an unavoidable trend that the majority of crime is committed by the poorest socio-economic groups in society. The answer lies in this fact. 

Alumbrado, I think you are probably aware that I'm not saying just throwing money at an area is the solution. There needs to be a complete re-think on how we run our societies. Do we really want to advocate self-interest and every man for himself? It is the whole culture of the Western world - the rampant consumerism, the importance placed upon material wealth, the complete lack of respect we have for each other - all of these and many other things create divisions in society and the result is the haves and the have nots. Regenerating an area will help reduce poverty and help reduce crime but we have a whole culture to put right. Sweden is quite interesting. They operate what they call a third way but is basically Capitalism with a reasonable distribution of wealth. They do not have anywhere near the same problems of anti-social behaviour that we have in Britain.

Need, I was born and raised in the council with the highest rate of unemployment in England so I know exactly what it is like to live in a run-down community that the Government has left to rot. All of the people who lived in that community are no different to the rest of the world in that given the opportunity they will thrive. The problem with the right is they just have no faith in people - it's always the same tired old lines "they're lazy", "they won't work" etc. Nonsense.

Regards

You know I don't entirely disagree. There are good poor people, but there are also poor people that are poor for a reason. That they simply don't want to work. You ignore that, or at the least don't acknowlege it. Your solution to treat all the "poor" as a generic group and treat them all the same isn't going to address anything. I can only speak of my experiences, and those have been every poor person that wanted to work hard to improve themselves that I've known has, all the ones that  selected other options over work(drinking, drugs, playstation), are still poor.  I'm in a more rural area,  towns are measured in 25000 -35000 range.  It works that way around here. So, as far as rural america goes all the evidence I've ever been exposed to suggests it's a choice. L.A., N.Y. or Britian may be different. I'd know as much about that, as you would about the conditions around here. That's what's lacking in your broad stroke approach. Not all environments are creatd equal, or will ever be. The only thing the government can control is direct monetary assistance which is the least of the problems in the areas. Lack of money is a symptom of other problems, not the problem. The problem is  the family and friends surrounding the child, who grows up to reflect the messed up values from the family in the next generation. So, how is money going to fix that. Taking the child away might work, but I can't even see you endorsing that.

Marx and Engels, LOL, I haven't read the communist manifesto since High School(about 14 years ago), so I'm not even going to try to debate someone who's made it the cornerstone of their philosophy. It's not fact though, as you are treating it in your opinions. It's a theory, one of 100's none of which are fact.

It's funny according to you, you grew up poor, I grew up poor. And we couldn't disagree more.  Why's that? Probably has to do with how you got out of that situation.



(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/6/2006 3:31:06 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Need,

There will always be a percentage of people who abuse a system but generally poverty is cyclical and it requires genuine incentive to break the cycle. You touch on it when you mention values and generations. These values have been passed down from generations who also lived in relative poverty but they lived in poverty at a time when exploitation was acceptable and Governments weren't held accountable because only the upper and middle class were enfranchised. In this day and age we should be laying the foundations to break these cycles of poverty.

In terms of Marx and Engels being the cornerstone of my philosophy, it is evidence of the power of the US Government propaganda machine that when someone mentions redistribution of wealth some Americans scream communist! Genuinely, I've never heard this stance taken by any other nationality. I'm neither a Communist nor a Socialist. I work for a private business, I believe in enterprise and incentive. I simply think that the Government elected by all the people has a responsibility to all of the people.

I have a feeling this is one of those discussions that has the potential to go around in circles for days. The right always detested the idea of universal suffrage because it would reduce their grip on power. Once the working classes were enfranchised through the power of the Trade Unions they changed their tactics and labelled the working-classes as lazy and work-shy - a tactic they still use today and I see it is also alive and well in the US.

Regards

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/7/2006 2:05:33 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		one of the problems when debating an issue like this is that humans always throw up exceptions to the rule. If you have the bad luck to be born into a part of society less fortunate than another then your chances are reduced. Yes, there are always exceptions either side: the rich kid who becomes a criminal, the poor kid who becomes a pillar of society. However the exceptions do not invalidate the rule. On the whole, if you live in a capitalist society the economic circumstances of your parents play a major role in what sort of life you will have. To pretend that it is not an enormously significent factor is mendacious.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/7/2006 6:08:04 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Not true at all philosophy.  I can cite many cases where that is not the case.  The parents can have all the money in the world, and they can literally throw the best education, the best of everything at the child, but if the child has no drive, it will mean absolutely nothing.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/7/2006 7:10:54 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
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Status: offline 		"Not true at all philosophy.  I can cite many cases where that is not the case.  The parents can have all the money in the world, and they can literally throw the best education, the best of everything at the child, but if the child has no drive, it will mean absolutely nothing."

sorry SK, but you're simply reiterating my point. i too can think of many many exceptions....but they don't invalidate the ground state. To imply that the groundstate has no effect on things is to suggest that context is irrelevant. If what you say is correct then there would be no difference, sociologically, in access and take up of university education for instance due to socio-economic factors. When you start adding up all the numbers and not just the ones you've heard about (and of course the ones we hear about tend to the exceptional anyway) then a trend arises. You appear to be arguing that that trend doesn't exist.


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RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/7/2006 7:19:37 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		In your own mentallity in another thread, then, "show Me the proof".  Where is your data?  Your scientific analysis?  You are all for scientific theories, are you not?  Well, here is your chance.

I have lived it.  So have others on here.  I personally think from reading your posts your just blabbing without having any data to back you up.  I will be very interested to see what you can come up with, and that is the truth.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/7/2006 7:22:58 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"I personally think from reading your posts your just blabbing without having any data to back you up.  I will be very interested to see what you can come up with, and that is the truth."

fair enough SK.........gimme a few hours to find some decent links and i'll post them back here for you. But bear in mind all i have to do to prove my point is show a difference in take up of university places according to socio-economic status.......do you really think that'll be difficult to prove?

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RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/7/2006 7:53:04 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2277820,00.html

that'll do for a start...note the line towards the end .....
"Malcolm Grant, chairman of the Russell Group of universities, said that he wanted to see more state pupils at university, but that it was important to maintain standards.
“We’re not saying that children from working-class backgrounds are less able, just less well prepared,” he said"

if you're poor then things like this are not as easy as when you're rich........surely you can now concede that point.

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/7/2006 7:55:56 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		http://www.startingat3.org/state_laws/StatelawKSdetail.htm

closer to home this time...note the line......... "Although Kansas courts do not consider education to be a fundamental right, they repeatedly have found Kansas' public education funding scheme, which results in disparities between high- and low-wealth districts, to be unconstitutional".....

if you're poor your chances in education are less than if you're rich.......

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/7/2006 7:58:05 AM   
TreSwank


Posts: 1165
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline 		I think that the main thrust of the "Sanitized Execution" thread has become-"if this dysgenic cesspool of poverty births so many death-row candidates because of unequal distribution of wealth, then the death penalty is a discriminatory act against the socioeconomically disadvantaged."

When you've got such a disproportionate number of death-row inmates that, for whatever reason, represent a cross-section of the impoverished in the United States, it HAS to bring up questions in the mind of any morally upright and conscientious American.  I believe that those who refuse to look at the contributing factors, probably wish that they could impose some sort of blanket, William Shockley sterilization policy on the poor, so that they could clean those "lazy welfare recipients" (blacks) and white-trash right off of the map.

I think that the proliferation of welfare has been GENOCIDE on the black community, in particular.  I also believe that a sense of learned helplessness occurs among folks who don't have to work to earn their bread, yet still remain impoverished.  The government and society should share the guilt for having played a role in such a big, tangled mess.

Even though my intentions in posting the Jeff Rassoul article were to point out the hypocrisy of the death penalty proponent's "relative-righteousness" when juxtaposed with the murderer, and to expose some folks to one of my favorite zinesters, (although some people probably skipped the link and automatically used the thread as a medium to debate their own feelings on the death penalty)  I DO like the direction that the thread has taken in regard to good old-fashioned, constructive debate.

< Message edited by TreSwank -- 8/7/2006 8:36:39 AM >

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RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/7/2006 11:03:23 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Treswank,

Apologies if I helped take your thread right off course. In terms of the death penalty, will we ever help solve the causes of serious crime if we execute people? I don't think so because the death penalty implies that serious criminals are not worthy of rehabilitation and by association are not really a part of society. In reality, this couldn't be further from the truth as they are a product of the society we live in just like the rest of us. As ever, the reactionary view of the right is to make no attempt to try and understand what it is about our societies that create such high-levels of serious crime. Good places to start would be Britain and the US because both have a huge wealth divide and huge serious crime rates (although I'm not suggesting we go back around the crime and poverty circles as we have earlier in this thread).

Philosophy, good work putting the links up. I imagine those who have benefitted from them are privately thanking you for helping to further their education.

Regards

(in reply to TreSwank)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/7/2006 11:28:55 AM   
dincubus


Posts: 231
Joined: 10/22/2005
From: South Dakota
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmakeMme
As a punishment it is quite ineffective.


     Are you kidding???   It is the only absolute guarantee against repeat offenses and 100% effective.

      I don't have much patience with people who want to treat violent criminals like victims.  I find them incredibly naive.

As do I, the whole "this defendant, your honor was abused as a child, didn't have cable tv as a child, and was denied a decent education at the public expense as well as was discriminated against when he applied for a job" thing as utter bullshit. It is an excuse, nothing more, nothing less. I have been screwed by the system, and have I killed anyone.. no. I made mistakes, just as many others have, in my past. I have taken my lumps and got on with my life. I, personally, busted ass day in and day out. I have done this to try to make my own life better as well as the lives of my children.
There is nothing more important to me than my kids, therefore I do not do anything that would endanger my ability to interact with them.
It boils down to choices. We all have the ability to choose between right and wrong. If we choose the wrong path, we need to cowboy the hell up, admit we were wrong and take what is coming to us. If we kill someone, we should pay with our lives. If we hurt a child, personally I believe that child molesters should be handed over to the family of the victims in a small room with a locking door for a period of time.. with no questions asked.
If someone can be proven, with absolutely no doubt, as having killed another.. the death sentence should be carried out immediately after the verdict is handed down.
just my personal beliefs, nothing more.. nothing less

(in reply to WyrdRich)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/7/2006 4:49:51 PM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline 		      Yeah, we did pretty well hijack this one.  Not as spectacularly as when a Caretakr thread became about Puella's plot to get CrappyDom to the alter but hey, that was a classic.

     NorthernGent, you are right, we could go in circles for weeks, spiraling down to the core difference of whether it is the job of Government to control and improve the lives of the citizenry (unless they are doing well, in which case the Gov't needs to bring them down a bit so nobody gets jealous) or if Government should encourage a climate of individual initiative and maximum personal liberty, leaving charity to the charitable.  Might be a fun thread but I worked a 12 today and don't feel like starting it.

(in reply to TreSwank)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Sanitized Execution - 8/7/2006 4:57:20 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Wyrd,

You're a wise man for drawing a line under this one, even though you did crow-bar a few not-so-little untruths into your paragraph which almost demand to be exposed for what they are. But, time waits for no man so I'll bow out of this one in the knowledge that once again it has been proven beyond all doubt that poverty = crime!

Regards

(in reply to WyrdRich)
Profile   Post #: 80
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