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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/9/2006 11:59:06 PM   
Estring


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Estring,

Of course the US and British Governments deliberately kill civilians. When they were bombing the life out of Iraq and Afghanistan do you think they didn't have the capacity to realise it would kill thousands of civilians? I will bet my life that the US and British Governments have killed far more civilians in those regions than Islamic fundamentalists have killed US and British civilians. So, again, to take the moral high-ground is ignoring the facts.

Regards


Well, well, well. A plot to blow up 20 planes traveling from Britain to the US was foiled. Planes filled with civilians I assume? I can't seem to recall either Britain or The US doing something like this. I can recall Islamist terrorists doing this or attempting this many times.
There is collateral damage in wars, yes civilians get killed.  Especially when cowards as Hezbollah hide behind them. There is no comparison between these terrorists and the armies of Britain or the US. You planning on flying anytime soon?

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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/10/2006 12:07:20 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

"Study puts Iraqi toll at 100,000"
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/

Under Saddam Iraq was supposedly a secular nation. Interesting that we should go hunting for Islamic extremists there...


Saddam was paying families of homicide bombers $25,000. You don't call that aiding terrorism? Saddam was not complying with a UN charter (1441?) that he declare all of his WMDs or suffer severe consequences. What do you think those consequences should have been? Sitting in the corner? We had every right to go in there. We were even in compliance with the UN. Of course, the fact that the UN and countries like France, Germany and Russia were making money off of Saddam wasn't discovered until later. That is why they were so against us going in. They didn't want thier dirty little secret exposed.
And by the way, that death toll number has already been  discredited by just about any credible source.

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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/10/2006 12:21:12 AM   
Kedikat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

"Study puts Iraqi toll at 100,000"
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/

Under Saddam Iraq was supposedly a secular nation. Interesting that we should go hunting for Islamic extremists there...


Saddam was paying families of homicide bombers $25,000. You don't call that aiding terrorism? Saddam was not complying with a UN charter (1441?) that he declare all of his WMDs or suffer severe consequences. What do you think those consequences should have been? Sitting in the corner? We had every right to go in there. We were even in compliance with the UN. Of course, the fact that the UN and countries like France, Germany and Russia were making money off of Saddam wasn't discovered until later. That is why they were so against us going in. They didn't want thier dirty little secret exposed.
And by the way, that death toll number has already been  discredited by just about any credible source.


Anything you say about Saddam should include that he was put in power and kept in power and used by the US. The US made lots of money off Saddam. They used him as a mercenary to kill others. The supplied him with weapons.
And as far as the UN 1441. When he did comply fully with it, the US announced the invasion date and the inspectors had to get out because of that. Not because Iraq wasn't complying. The inspectors were an embarrasment to the US as they kept discovering nothing but abandoned old stuff from when the US was Saddams buddy.

Yes he did pay money to " some " dead terrorists families. A drop in the bucket.

You just seem to think that these countries and people should go along with whatever the powerful do to them, have done to them, will do to them. If your fellow Americans were to forgive, forget, and turn the other cheek to other countries screwing them over, you would be outraged. Maybe even a " terrorist ".



(in reply to Estring)
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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/10/2006 12:25:52 AM   
Kedikat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Estring,

Of course the US and British Governments deliberately kill civilians. When they were bombing the life out of Iraq and Afghanistan do you think they didn't have the capacity to realise it would kill thousands of civilians? I will bet my life that the US and British Governments have killed far more civilians in those regions than Islamic fundamentalists have killed US and British civilians. So, again, to take the moral high-ground is ignoring the facts.

Regards


Well, well, well. A plot to blow up 20 planes traveling from Britain to the US was foiled. Planes filled with civilians I assume? I can't seem to recall either Britain or The US doing something like this. I can recall Islamist terrorists doing this or attempting this many times.
There is collateral damage in wars, yes civilians get killed.  Especially when cowards as Hezbollah hide behind them. There is no comparison between these terrorists and the armies of Britain or the US. You planning on flying anytime soon?


Never mind. I was just asking for a link, but it is too new to even google. Got it. I hope we get some more in depth information on it.


< Message edited by Kedikat -- 8/10/2006 1:06:06 AM >

(in reply to Estring)
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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/10/2006 1:34:18 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		More importantly, I have yet to see it stated what kind of possible terrorists these guys happen to be. This thread is about Al-Qaeda. Not some other Islamist terror group. Not Islamist sympathizers. Not anything but AQ. I want proof they are AQ. Six degrees of Kevin Bacon has taught me the world is a very small place - ultimately everyone knows everyone else if you link the right people. I could probably link Bush to Osama easily and sufficiently enough to prove Bush complicit in 9/11 under the federal RICO laws. It's not lost on anyone that the Bush and Bin Laden families are in fact friends, right?

...

On the morning of September 11, 2001, George W. Bush's father, George H. W. Bush, was meetingwith Osama bin Laden's brother, Shafig bin Laden, in the Ritz-Carlton Hotel, Washington, on Carlyle Group business. Two days later, 13 bin Ladens were cleared by the White House to fly out of the United States when overseas flights were again cleared for departure. The New York Times reported that they were quickly called together by officials from the Saudi Embassy, which feared that they might become the victims of American reprisals. With approval from the F.B.I., according to a Saudi official, the bin Ladens flew by private jet from Los Angeles to Orlando, then on to Washington, D.C. and finally to Boston. Once the FAA permitted overseas flights, the jet flew to Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_Laden

...

Estring's logic is so fucked I can't make heads or tails of it. We are in Iraq because of Saddam's failure to comply with U.N sanctions? Saddam was complying until we (the U.S.) went to war on his ass, the inspectors were there and the U.N. was doing the one good thing the U.N. might possibly do in this world - keeping the peace! I guess 100,000 mostly innocent Iraqi lives is not enough to pay for Saddam's pretended crime though...how many more are necessary Estring?

Do you suppose you can play blood feud out in the world and then run home and be perfectly safe? That's not how the game of blood feud is played.

That's not how to make friends in the world.

_____________________________

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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/10/2006 5:08:18 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Estring,

Good god, it gets worse.

a) The details have not been released so jumping to conclusions is ridiculous.
b) At the moment, regardless of what you are being told in the US, the "critical" status in the UK is precautionary. 21 people have been arrested and according to our intelligence services there are hints that a terrorist attack was/is imminent i.e. no details of a co-ordinated plan have been released. At this moment in time it is all hints and assumptions - no one has actually stated the whats and wheres of this planned attack (liquid devices have been hinted at).
c) Regardless, it will take years of terrorist attacks to come anywhere near close to the numbers of civilians the US and British Governments have killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
d) As it happens, I'm flying to Berlin tomorrow (unless cancelled) but I do not live my life gripped by paranoia and fear.

Anyone in their right mind would condemn both terrorist attacks and the state terrorism of the US and British Governments - unless of course they are blinded by the spin and packaging.

Regards

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/10/2006 7:17:11 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Estring,

Why is it brave to use airplanes to drop bombs on people but cowardly to use airplanes as bombs and drop them on people?

Both ways kill innocent civilians.

I just can't sit around blindly dismissing anyone we kill as "collateral damage" and then cry whenever they kill one of us and scream "moral outrage".  It it shallow and hypocritical and blinds us to the reality of what is going on.

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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/10/2006 8:55:55 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom
Estring,
Why is it brave to use airplanes to drop bombs on people but cowardly to use airplanes as bombs and drop them on people?


CD,
One word - INTENT.

Those that use the American or French revolution can go back to those examples. In both, citizens died, but the intent of the protagonists was to kill the enemy. When a US plane bombs it's intent is to kill the people, weapons, or "collateral" who are the source of attacks on our position or the "collateral" of our allies. Living in the neighborhood of where rockets are being launched is a good way to be in the neighborhood of a rocket back at you. How does that compare to the people who were on the planes on 9/11 or those in the buildings? How does that compare to the people at a restaurant where a boy goes to blow himself to the cheers of his  religious and political leaders?

No it doesn't make any difference to the dead, but it should make a difference to the living. The fact that it doesn't to you, speaks for you.

However it makes difference to the terrorists. For their intent doesn't distinguish between your enabling position and mine. Standing together in front of them they'd kill us both. Their intent is in their dogma. A Muslim to follow his faith must convert or kill anyone not Muslim. I know this position is only supposed to be tied to "radical" Muslims. I'll distinguish when I hear a distinguishing loud voice from their political and religious leadership.

It would be better if more would agree with your position. Then there wouldn't be debate about which Muslims should be deported, arrested, or killed on sight. The logic coming from your question is, intent isn't important and there is no difference at all.

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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/10/2006 10:09:06 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		MercnBeth:

As there is no known connection between 9/11 and Iraq, please restate your whole intent theory please. We are killing them why?

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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/10/2006 10:23:05 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

MercnBeth:

As there is no known connection between 9/11 and Iraq, please restate your whole intent theory please. We are killing them why?


The post I responded to wanted a distinction regarding terrorist using a commercial airline a military bombing. No reference in Iraq was in the question or the response.

Currently in Iraq they are mostly killing each other. I also want to know why. I also reached an opinion that the US Military should leave and let them.

And it isn't a "theory". The intent of both sides is clear in their stated public positions.

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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/10/2006 12:15:45 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		CD,

I just can't sit around blindly dismissing anyone we kill as "collateral damage" and then cry whenever they kill one of us and scream "moral outrage".  It it shallow and hypocritical and blinds us to the reality of what is going on.
 
Exactly, it's spin and packaging. Peel off the wrapper and the bombing of Iraqis was slaughter.

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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/11/2006 12:18:08 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		"Officials Cite Sophistication and Scale of Plane Scheme"
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/11/world/europe/11qaeda.html?ex=1312948800&en=ef8f66d79f40a2bc&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Pretty interesting stuff - please make a point of reading the reader comments. Lots of people there are calling bullshit in terms of the timing and the overall "terrorist bogeyman" scheme of things. One guy compares the modern U.S. to Communist China in its expansive use of the term "terrorist" to encapsulate everything the ruling party dislikes. Need I mention the Cheney quote from today on Lieberman? What a lot of bullshit.

Here's the most hilarious quote from the article itself:
....

“The great problem is that Al Qaeda has moved far beyond being a terrorist organization to being almost a state of mind,” said Simon Reeve, author of a 1999 book on Osama bin Laden and his associates.

....
Gee, that's fucking astonishing. Now they move with the speed of thought! What kinds of thoughts? How about fear?

You better watch out
You better not cry
Better not pout
I'm telling you why
The Bogeyman is coming to town!


_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/11/2006 6:37:49 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

"Officials Cite Sophistication and Scale of Plane Scheme"
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/11/world/europe/11qaeda.html?ex=1312948800&en=ef8f66d79f40a2bc&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Pretty interesting stuff - please make a point of reading the reader comments. Lots of people there are calling bullshit in terms of the timing and the overall "terrorist bogeyman" scheme of things. One guy compares the modern U.S. to Communist China in its expansive use of the term "terrorist" to encapsulate everything the ruling party dislikes. Need I mention the Cheney quote from today on Lieberman? What a lot of bullshit.

Here's the most hilarious quote from the article itself:
....

“The great problem is that Al Qaeda has moved far beyond being a terrorist organization to being almost a state of mind,” said Simon Reeve, author of a 1999 book on Osama bin Laden and his associates.

....
Gee, that's fucking astonishing. Now they move with the speed of thought! What kinds of thoughts? How about fear?

You better watch out
You better not cry
Better not pout
I'm telling you why
The Bogeyman is coming to town!


Chain,
You believe in a conspiracy theory regarding 9/11 but a situation where 24 people in England and others in Pakistan are arrested, ALL Muslim by the way, planning to blow up planes is contrived to generate false world paranoia? I heard one tin hat wearer saying that this whole thing was a marketing ploy for Oliver Stone's movie 9/11. You don't think that's the cause do you?

I just want to note - you can lose your credibility going down that path.

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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/11/2006 6:52:59 AM   
EnglishDomNW


Posts: 493
Joined: 12/24/2005
Status: offline 		When someone boards a plane full of civilians intending to blow it up and kill everyone on board, they're not hurting American or British politics, it's just a wanton act of indiscriminate murder.  It doesn't seem to me to achieve anything other than deserved contempt for deliberately taking innocent human life.

Were the people on the London Underground or in the Twin Towers really to blame for Western foreign policy?  It's inexcusable they should pay with their lives when many of them probably disagreed with that foreign policy in the first place.

_____________________________


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(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/11/2006 9:37:22 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
You believe in a conspiracy theory regarding 9/11 but a situation where 24 people in England and others in Pakistan are arrested, ALL Muslim by the way, planning to blow up planes is contrived to generate false world paranoia? I heard one tin hat wearer saying that this whole thing was a marketing ploy for Oliver Stone's movie 9/11. You don't think that's the cause do you?


Ah, the classic (and so tired) attack on the conspiracy theory...

The Federal government can use RICO - the ultimate conspiracy tool - to try people in absentia for the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in east Africa based on the flimsiest of lies, but if I talk about conspiracies on a message board I am a loon. I have news for you, almost anything a person does in relation to even one other person could be deemed a conspiracy. And conspiracies therefore abound. The American Revolution was a conspiracy AND an act of treason also (depending on your point of view).

I have posted quite sensible content on this board on how the stock market has had fraud literally grandfathered into it by the FTC. Um...if that's not a conspiracy, then what is? You're okay with that? I'm not okay with that. There are families in power and beautiful houses in the Hamptons because of that fraud - that's okay though, eh?

I'd say you could have your credibility shot through by being overly myopic and just eating up whatever the media feeds you too.

I don't think the media at large is that interested in telling you of the very real economic and political dangers that exist right here in the states. We don't need to go looking for terrorists in hiding places when the economic equivalent of terrorists exist within our corporate boardrooms and highly placed government offices. Sadly, you can't get the average Joe and Jane Sixpack to understand the nature of the charges and why it's wrong any more than you can get them to understand that international espionage and terrorism is a deeply tangled mess and nothing in that arena happens in isolation.

Terrorism isn't new, it's been around at least as long as I have been alive. I also know that our policies regarding terrorism are absolutely not sound and play better on the media than they do in real life. The U.S government does more more every day to cause terrorism than to alleviate its causes - and the problem will therefore be with us for years to come. I am sure the hope is to saddle the problem on some poor schmuck Democrat that might be in power at that time. Or of course, it can always be blamed on Bill Clinton!

How I laugh...

Personally, I 'll be more worried the day a terrorist plot is actually effective and carried out; not just on a day when airport security, the police, FBI, and CIA actually manage to do their fucking jobs for once.

You can bet there will be plenty of Republican chest-beating on this one. Already Cheney has suggested that a vote against anyone supporting this bullshit "War on Terror" is a vote for Al-Qaeda. I guess he doesn't ever stop to think that it might be more important to remain steadfast in terms of what makes us Americans in the first place than to sacrifice every possible liberty on the alter of terror.

These guys have been in power long enough to effect some real change if they had wanted to do so. Instead they used terror as an excuse to express their greed. Do I really have to sit her and list the endless quantities of taxpayer monies being funneled to who and why? Closed contracts most often too - thank you Mr. Bush!

Where is Osama Bin Laden? What happened to the situation in Afghanistan? If AQ is the cause of so much suffering, why does AQ still exist at all? How many failures can be laid at the feet of the members of this administration? I ask pointedly: how effective have their policies been in reducing terrorism by settling the root causes of terrorism? Is the war in Iraq useful to the average American in any way? Is that war creating many more terrorists? What happens when you try to destroy a people? Do those same people suffer you to live after that? Is it all just "forgive and forget"? What world are you living in?

Fuck, don't ask me questions before all the facts are in. Look in the mirror and ask yourself are you a man or a puppet.

I don't live in fear. I don't believe in a cohesive international terror organization called Al-Qaeda. And I don't jump just because the media says to jump.

I will not be voting Republican, for this "War on Terror", or for the continuance of the war in Iraq.



< Message edited by Chaingang -- 8/11/2006 9:39:08 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/11/2006 10:11:26 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Personally, I 'll be more worried the day a terrorist plot is actually effective and carried out; not just on a day when airport security, the police, FBI, and CIA actually manage to do their fucking jobs for once.


Chain,
So it this all made up or were they doing there job based upon what you know currently?

If there was an organized attempt then there is an organization. I don't need to call it Al Qaeda, or bin Landin, or the Merry Men of Nottingham. They may be English citizens, US citizens, Pakistani citizens, or aliens from Europa. The common denominator in all the people is they all identify themselves as Muslim. It's the religion's leaders that allow it to be represented in that manner. It's the lack of a loud condemnation by the Muslim community that implies complicity. 

PS - I also hope not to be voting Republican either, however if the Connecticut senate, or the California governor primary race is an indication of the party's direction I doubt they'll give me a viable choice.

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/11/2006 10:42:21 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
So it this all made up or were they doing there job based upon what you know currently?


These guys weren't probably the real deal. Real terrorists don't get caught, they carry out their plans. These were probably terrorists in the Jose Padilla (supposed dirty bomber) or Richard Reid (shoe bomber) vein - in other words, clowns and social misfits. I doubt there is an AQ tie and I actually find it interesting that the media and the British government are being fairly circumspect in making that claim also.

The other issue is the numbers caught. Catching over 20 people at one go means they were observing this group a long time. If they were a real threat they would not have waited as that could have had very dangerous consequences - but since they were most likely bozo terrorists the various agents for the govt. bided their time and waited for the most propitious moment to swoop in and make the arrests.

What prompted the precise moment chosen for the arrests? Who knows? But it's entirely possible there was political motivation. Certainly it's not impossible. Maybe some agency wanted more funding. Maybe someone higher up suggested a specific timetable. It happens...

----

Speaking of Jose Padilla...
...
None of the original allegations put forward by the U.S. government three years ago, the claims that held Padilla in the majority in solitary confinement throughout that period, were part of the indictment: "Attorney General Alberto Gonzales announced Padilla is being removed from military custody and charged with a series of crimes" and "There is no mention in the indictment of Padilla's alleged plot to use a dirty bomb in the United States. There is also no mention that Padilla ever planned to stage any attacks inside the country. And there is no direct mention of Al-Qaeda. Instead the indictment lays out a case involving five men who helped raise money and recruit volunteers in the 1990s to go overseas to countries including Chechnya, Bosnia, Somalia and Kosovo. Padilla, in fact, appears to play a minor role in the conspiracy. He is accused of going to a jihad training camp in Afghanistan but the indictment offers no evidence he ever engaged in terrorist activity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_Padilla_(alleged_terrorist)

----

Oh how things change once the spotlight switches to something else!


_____________________________

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RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/11/2006 10:51:53 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

The other issue is the numbers caught. Catching over 20 people at one go means they were observing this group a long time. If they were a real threat they would not have waited as that could have had very dangerous consequences - but since they were most likely bozo terrorists the various agents for the govt. bided their time and waited for the most propitious moment to swoop in and make the arrests.

What prompted the precise moment chosen for the arrests? Who knows? But it's entirely possible there was political motivation. Certainly it's not impossible. Maybe some agency wanted more funding. Maybe someone higher up suggested a specific timetable. It happens...


Chain,
The timing is poor for politics. If it were late September/October it would have an impact, but most won't even remember this when November comes around. Budgets also aren't on the table at this time of year. Too many people are on vacation.

From what I read, the timing was because they were doing their "dress rehearsal" for the targeted day of August 16th. Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=400114&in_page_id=1770&ct=5 Who knows, this may be the event that President Ahmadinejad was alluding to in his August 22nd pronouncement. Source: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23533 This source says the investigation started after the London transit system bombings of July 2005. Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/10/AR2006081001654_pf.html

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Al-Qaeda: A Bogeyman for the U.S. Empire - 8/11/2006 7:43:13 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		The Iraq war is in the toilet, there is dimishing support and the U.S. is ready to quit throwing good money after bad. Finally!

The clock is running out - two years to go!

The timing is excellent for a political play - let's say you were considering turning the Israel/Lebanon situation into a war against Iran. The fuse is lit and everyone/everything is set to explode.

Agenda: Grab that oil/cash with both hands and make a stash. If the guys in power can take ownership of even some of the oil in the Mid-East before the energy changeover that is sure to come eventually, it creates wealth for them beyond the dreams of avarice.

Implementation: U.N., U.S. and British troops get embroiled in Lebanon. Syria gets sucked in with the pull of political gravity and then Iran. U.S. then must go toe to toe with Iran (a nuclear power in the making that we supposedly couldn't fight while we were so busy in TWO other places already). Fundies get lubed for the apocalypse. Condi plays the peace-keeper for the press while playing private toy to her husban...er, President Bush.

Why: Bush, Cheney, Rummy - these guys are not worth just what is stated on their tax returns. Anyone of even moderate wealth has offshore wealth and accounts. It's called tax avoidance, not evasion. Good places to check into: Singapore and Luxemborg.

Possible problems: The world is wise to the wiseguys and stops the bullshit before it hits the fan. If the dry drunk stumbles before the next two years are out there will be a call for him to fall on his sword. Condi is interviewed live by Barbara Walters and tearfully apologizes to Laura for...well, you know...but she's really, really sorry...

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

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