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Another day another dollar ? - 8/8/2006 6:05:12 PM   
Termyn8or


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We have heard this before. Henry Ford was among the first to pay really good wages to his employees. It became possible because of his advancements in productivity. He made money, but he is one of the few who really deserved it. Production lines were already around, but his refinements were enough to allow him to pay an exceptional wage for the time, and have a company with healthy profits.

Another day another dollar. Now I consider about $100-150 a day a decent living wage. At five days a week around $30K a year. This is a minimum if you want to buy a house, have any savings at all or have a vice or two to support.

If you compare the value of a dollar today with the value of a 1930s dollar it is worth about a nickel. Therefore you need to make $200 a day to make a dollar a day.

That would be $25 an hour for an eight hour day. Now they take taxes out and this puts you into the $50,000 a year bracket. To take home $200, or one real dollar per day you would have to make considerably more.

We bought this house in 1989 for $20,000. Without even washing the windows I could get $60,000 in a heartbeat. In 1989 a pack of smokes was about $1.33 (between a buck and a buck and a half) and now they cost $4 a pack. Pretty much the same ratio.

Disposables have not followed the same trend because they continually improve their cost/price ratio. For example a color TV used to be over $1,000, what does one cost now ? I would rather have a car that cost $10,000 in 1987 rather than one that cost the same amount in 2006 for that reason. Also note that the $1,000 color TV in the fifties would cost ten times that to build now. Audiophiles know that any high quality tube amp costs thousands now. Older technology is valuable.

See, friends, it is my considered and educated opinion that certain real property does not change value. It is the dollar that changes value. While things do get cheaper becuse of advancements in assembly line technology, as well as procurement of raw materials (wars) some things will go down in price. As manufacturers procure cheap offshore labor (sometimes by war) prices go down on disposable comsumer goods. They are labor intenive and supporting an Americam worker is not feasible when manufacturing certain products.

How did this happen ? Ask your government. I hope the Chinese stab them in the back, because they gave them the power to do so. Letting them buy US securities was the stupidest thing they've done in a long time. They could collapse the US economy with the stroke of a pen.

A ten cent ice cream cone is how much ? Is it really worth 20 times what it used to be ? The way I see it is my house is still worth $20,000 but I wouldn't sell it for less than $60,000 FRNs (federal reverse notes).

Back when We The People controlled the value of the currency nobody got screwed. The value was in our goods and services, that is the portion we decided to sell. Now the government and the federal reserve dictate whay our 'money' is worth. That means it is scrip, and you never own scrip. Scrip is a modicum of exchange between soldiers in a war zone, because they may not be able to obtain what they want locally. It's value as well as it's usage is regulated. If that is true (which it is) you do not own it. You are simpy allowed to posses it and use it, within their guidlines of course.

Slave. That's what it means, and the cashless society is a step in that direction.

A soldier is a true slave, unlike someone, kink or not, who enslaves someone with their consent, these real slaves must kill people who never hurt them or theirs. They might be an upper echelon slave, but they are way more enslaved than someone who cleans your house or even licks your boots. They are willing to die.

Every soldier who comes back from Iraq is going to die a slow and horrible death because of the use of depleted uranium weapons. It's in the air. Now it seems their masters have deemed them expendable. They cut vet's benefits as we speak, they don't want to give We The People anything.

I think government officials should be barred from owning ANY foreign currency. Oh yes, Greenspan and all of them have accounts not measure in dollars, but in Pounds, Shekels, Rubles, who knows what else.

If any of you think that the people who have a direct impact on the value of our currency should be forced to live with it, in other words if you deflate our savings you are doing the same thing to yourself, or even milder, make government officials use social security for retirement with the rest of us, raise your hand. They can bankrupt our retirement with no ill effects to theirs. Is this fair ? Is it fair for them to PURPOSELY devaluate the dollar over which they have control while insulated from the effects by speculating on foreign currency ? We The People creaed this wealth !

These are serious issues. These things happen all day long.What are we going to do ?

Over twenty years ago I burned over half of a twenty dollar bill at a poker game. I siad it was not my night and I was bowing out. It was my house. I still have that bill, now if I sent it to the treasury and got a replacement, would it be worth half ? About 20 years, is it worth half or am I better off just keeping the bill ? Money is worthless after all, it is only the agreed upon value that makes it worth anything.

Give it some thought. I have and am not pleased. What about you ?

T

(I have run over he ten paragraph limit, but I started this, so I have 'license')
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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/8/2006 6:48:48 PM   
MmakeMme


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My thought processes are worth a qurter of what they were a few hours ago. Typically, as the day progresses, it takes twice as long to come up with half the wit. Talk about a recession.

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/8/2006 6:55:21 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

 Money is worthless after all, it is only the agreed upon value that makes it worth anything.


T




Interesting post, T, and the above sentence in particular...... it's something I've thought about for a long time.
 
Money is whatever a group of people agree that it is.
 
Taking that, and finding a large enough group of people (nations) that can come to an agreement.... could change the world. The one thing that always seems to come into this little mental picture in my head to botch things up is inflation. Hmm.

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/8/2006 8:49:27 PM   
UtopianRanger


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A house, a car, consumer electronics, the comforts of home... The quintessential American dream....

The most important fact omitted in your little treatise, is that the ''American Dream'' used to be achievable on one income.... now even with three incomes its a tough sell in certain parts of the country - Bet.



 - R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 8/8/2006 8:50:28 PM >


_____________________________

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 12:30:05 AM   
Estring


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

A house, a car, consumer electronics, the comforts of home... The quintessential American dream....

The most important fact omitted in your little treatise, is that the ''American Dream'' used to be achievable on one income.... now even with three incomes its a tough sell in certain parts of the country - Bet.



- R


If we were able to keep more of the money that we make, one income would probably be fine.

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Boycott Whales!

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 12:50:35 AM   
Kedikat


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Inflation makes a dollar seem like less.
At it's heart, inflation is the desire to be paid more this year, for the same work you did last year. Or to make more profit this year on the same product and volume as last year. Expecting something for nothing.
If every single person only expected more for doing more. There would be no inflation. There would be cost changes as resources ran out here and there and had to be shipped further or dug deeper to find. A natural thing that would not be so hidden in the false inflation.
Real estate would only rise in value in relation to it's location.
One seed of inflation is credit. Some of the interest goes back into hard economic growth, but most of it goes back into more credit.
Inflation is a face of greed. A self perpetuating zero sum game.
Like anything, inflation itself is a way to profit. Hiding gouging. Keeping your prices low while driving your costs much lower and pocketing the difference. People selling an overpriced home and thinking they are rich enough now to buy an even more overpriced one.
Round and round.....

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 1:10:55 AM   
Termyn8or


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Utopian....;

I would be a fool to take that bet. I am lucky to still make decent money. Alot of people I know been forced out of business and taking shitty jobs.

Three incomes ? well if nobody has any real earning power that might not be enough. When you got people making the same amount they made in the 80s and 90s and houses, cars and everythings skyrocketying, it just don't cut it. I know.

I won't start my car for less than $100 per day, and I mean a short day. Add two incomes to mine and we cn get  Nintendo or an Xbox. For what reason I don't know. I just hope people with such things will not come crying to me when they go broke.

Eat, drink and sleep with your nintendo or whatever. Make sure your family gets the most expensive suit for your burial too, it is soo important. You need all the gold adornment when you are DEAD. "Oh. but the spirit", listen, the spirit left when the tree jumped in front of the car or whatever hppened. Nobody dead gives a flying fuck about anything. I can't make it much simpler than that.

My Grandpa always didn't want to spend money, he was saving it for his children (my Uncles and Aunts). They had to tell him SPEND IT PLEASE. "Look, your kids are averaging $50,000 a year (in 1977), we don't need your money, enjoy it.

He didn't. Now there's a subject for another thread too. Grandpa and I had a very special relationship. While he wasn't completely unique, he had some rare qualities. They shaped me a bit. As hard of a Man he was, stoic and everything, he was very careful and gentle with children. I'll never forget those times when he bestowed the honor upon me to come downstairs to his workshop. What I learned there cannot be learned anymore. Nobody is here to teach it.

OK, I be quiet now, check the rest of the board and then I will go to bed. It is late.

Be well, and I do mean that.

T

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 1:57:14 AM   
UtopianRanger


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Termyn8or....

I knew you understood.... you just didn't mention it. When I'm driving sometimes, I occasionally listen to the Hannity program just to keep up to date with the recent propaganda. One thing he repeats over and over and over, is the fact that Americans have  new cars and nice houses. But he never tells you that it takes two to three incomes..  putting in 50-60 hrs a week. The people who listen to him day after day never think things through or remember how things used to be.


And Estring....

I damn sure agree with you here.... I think we should limit these politician's expense accounts to three square meals at Jack-in-the-Box everyday..... and then make them hire illegal aliens for staffers. Yeah.... I want my money back - definitely




 - R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 8/9/2006 2:00:06 AM >


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 5:14:32 AM   
MmakeMme


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If we would stop buying into it, the big economic hole would become smaller. Credit card companies charge huge amounts of interest ... yet we keep using them.

I am a Realtor and I can say without hesitation that real estate is a BUYER-driven commodity - a property is not worth what a lender says, what the tax assessor says, not what an appraiser says. Buyers give us the market's temperature.

Banks charge customers to use their ATM cards and yet we keep using them, agreeing to "self-debit" our own money for the "privelege" of using this little card (I'll bet if most people only held onto them and didn't use them, banks would come up with a Non-Use fee). Kedi was right - we all want something for nothing and the snowball keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

Recession isn't necessarily a bad thing. Things level off and move back into balance. Companies have to offer more affordable products and services. Retail prices go up ... and then come back down, as they must. The pain isn't pleasant ... but it feels so good when it stops hurting.

Food for Thought: Remember the gas "crisis" back in the 70's?

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Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~~ Dalai Lama

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 5:28:46 AM   
Moloch


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The answer is so simple! The dollar used to be backed by Silver and Gold now its simply backed by "Reputation", so what do you expect?

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 5:31:01 AM   
MmakeMme


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But it smells so good and the fresh bills make nice crinkly sounds.

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 5:34:19 AM   
MmakeMme


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

The answer is so simple! The dollar used to be backed by Silver and Gold now its simply backed by "Reputation", so what do you expect?


Joking aside, it is based on the gold standard ... by reputation only, these days. Too many people, too few resources. We could cure the problem by mass voluntary self-culling.

Ah, yet another basis for a novel or screenplay. Oh wait. I think this one's been done before ...

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Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~~ Dalai Lama

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 5:41:02 AM   
Moloch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmakeMme

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

The answer is so simple! The dollar used to be backed by Silver and Gold now its simply backed by "Reputation", so what do you expect?


Joking aside, it is based on the gold standard ... by reputation only, these days. Too many people, too few resources. We could cure the problem by mass voluntary self-culling.

Ah, yet another basis for a novel or screenplay. Oh wait. I think this one's been done before ...


Ehh it WAS based on a gold standard, you could bring in your money and trade it in for gold, that is no longer the case.

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 6:26:45 AM   
peterK50


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It's a myth lower taxes raise living standards. Lower taxes puts more money into circulation [inflationary], causes increased gov't borrowing [ increased deficit], and depresses the economy [recession].

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 7:47:13 AM   
Mercnbeth


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The US is the only country that penalizes you for saving money. You are taxed on interest or gains from investment and savings.  Considering that any money you have to save was already subject to income and SS taxation, in effect you are getting taxed twice. If you are unfortunate enough to die before spending it your heirs will have to pay taxes if the amount is what the government thinks is excessive. The taxing philosophy of the US is anti-savings.

On the flip side, spending and over spending is encouraged. You get to deduct interest. Now of course they've closed the loopholes and now you can only deduct home mortgage interest. But rolling your 14% credit card into your home when you re-finance has a great tax benefit. You can go from a 40% tax base to an effective 13% if you spend enough and role it into a mortgage secured loan. It's the only tax advantage the "regular" guy has left.

Spend it and enjoy it as quick as you can.

btw - in CA $60,000 won't buy you a horse trailer let alone a house in a trailer park.

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 9:06:41 AM   
MmakeMme


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$60,000 won't buy you much of anything anywhere, I daresay, at least not as far as habitable residences go. It'll buy a helluva car though. Kinda sad, really.

My parents bought their first house in 1965. It was something like $7,500. That house sold recently for $98,000. That's what buyers in that area ~ say ~ that house is worth - it is what they are ~ willing ~ to pay (or if not "willing", at least persuadable). If the bottom falls out of the economy, as it will, prices of everything will come down. No buyers or consumers, too much inventory (of all products, not just real estate). Too much inventory, cut prices. Cut prices, more interest from buyers and consumers. More interest, higher prices. Vicious, vicious.

The government can't tax my savings - I spend every dime I earn. And then some. But they tax the shinola out of my income.

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Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~~ Dalai Lama

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 9:32:24 AM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


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I am not sure that I understand what this thread is about... are people saying that the recent runup in US housing prices is the result of a government conspiracy?  If so, what is the mechanism and what is the motivation for the perpetrators of that conspiracy?

It's my understanding that the runup was caused by increased demand for owning as opposed to renting, with that principally being driven by low interest rates for housing loans.  See for example:
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4079027

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 9:42:54 AM   
peterK50


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The tax code is not anti-savings. Interest income is income & therefore taxable. The banking industry is anti-savings. Theire interest rates do not outstrip inflation so there is no incentive to save.

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 9:45:55 AM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

A house, a car, consumer electronics, the comforts of home... The quintessential American dream....

The most important fact omitted in your little treatise, is that the ''American Dream'' used to be achievable on one income.... now even with three incomes its a tough sell in certain parts of the country - Bet.
- R

It's definitely true that the average American family works more now than they ever did.  But it's also true that its material wealth is higher than it ever was.  People used to be satisfied with modest lives - local travel, modest homes, simple clothing and meals.  Now, good is never good enough.  It's just an all-out competition for the biggest and latest and most exotic, in everything we fork out money for... a self-imposed rat-race.

< Message edited by Daddy4UdderSlut -- 8/9/2006 9:48:19 AM >

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RE: Another day another dollar ? - 8/9/2006 10:08:10 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

The tax code is not anti-savings.


quote:

Interest income is income & therefore taxable.


You can avoid paying more tax by not saving.

So it's only anti-saving if you don't want to pay tax on money you invested that you already paid tax?

Worse, if your savings interest puts you in a higher tax bracket your entire income for the year is taxes at a higher rate. Ultimately you could be put in a bracket where the interest you earned is LESS than the additional tax you have to pay.

I'd say a tax code that accomplishes that is anti-savings.

Trust me, banks would LOVE to have more people "save" money. They can pay 2% in interest and lend it out at +14% on your credit card purchases.

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