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RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 12:48:02 AM

georgejames68

Posts: 72
Joined: 1/28/2006
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I agree with Calandra... I have personally hypnotised several girls without their knowledge, and under this influence you are able to take full advantage of them. This does require an experienced hypnotist, though I did once fully hypnotise a girl totally by accident!!!!! Anybody that thinks that hypnosis is simple and/or safe has a lot to learn about it. A fully hypnotised person can be persuaded by a skilled operator to do nearly anything including things that are obnoxious to the hypnotised person!!!

Visualize a deeply hypnotised girl who is told that you are going to call into the room her husband. Then leave the room and come back in acting as her husband! Do you think for one second that the girl will have any objection to a physical activity if she fully thinks she is with her husband??? Sorry, people, hypnosis is a terribly powerful skill and can be used incorrectly!!!

Master George

(in reply to enigmabrat)

Post #: 21

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 12:57:47 AM

Calandra

Posts: 725
Joined: 11/22/2004
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Thank you!

I was once told that I am unable to be hypnotized... how funny, since I was regularly hypnotized by a dear friend and Master only a few months before...

I've found that most hypnotists feel they are "experts" at it... while few truly are...

Unfortunately there is no way to truly stop a skilled, but unethical hypnotist... And the damage is so difficult to repair because often the memory is affected...

(in reply to georgejames68)

Post #: 22

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 1:03:13 AM

enigmabrat

Posts: 2383
Joined: 8/1/2004
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we dont have enough info im just saying you cant ubsolve a grown adult slave or not of responsability for their actions

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(in reply to enigmabrat)

Post #: 23

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 1:13:30 AM

Calandra

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Joined: 11/22/2004
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buuuuut, the OP asked about how to handle the situation with Dick....

She didn't ask what to do with the girl... she DID mention that the girl was apparently under hypnosis, which leads me to believe that she feels the girl was not to blame in the situation. Assigning blame or fault to the girl is HER right, not ours.

Even if the girl stood up and did a striptease for Dick, HE acted unethically. He took something that didn't belong to him, and lied in the process... He may have also perpetrated a rape if he did use hypnosis. God knows whether He used safe sex practices...

(in reply to enigmabrat)

Post #: 24

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 8:05:11 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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Here is my opinion on the events.

First, the house needs to take care of its own. Get this new slave therapy because at the very least she is likely feeling guilt over what happened.

Second, discuss with the girl whether or not she wants to press rape charges. If he lied to her or threatened and she didn't consent then it is rape. If he threatened her, used drugs, or other means and her consent wasn't sought that is rape. However, if he lied to her and she consented even if she regrets it now, I think it would be an extremely difficult case, don't know if the police or the prosecution would tackle it.

Third, if this girl or you find this interfering with your dynamic (how could it not?) you may want to back off the entire slavery dynamic or simply end the relationship. Do not however leave her to fend for herself until she has any help she needs or wants. It happened in your house and it is partly your responsibility.

Fourth, ban this man from your home. If your female friend decides to stay with him and she does not like your ban, too bad. Your duty is to protect your household first and foremost.

Fifth, I'd really consider laying out some very very strict rules about who is allowed to touch whom and when. If you have general rules about how all slaves should obey all masters, consider if that is really a very wise idea -- even if you only extend that to those visiting consider the wisdom of it.

I would also never have visitors or guests when you starting off a new owner-slave relationship. That dynamic takes time to develop and settle down especially in a multiple person household.

Sixth, get some therapy for yourself or for the entire family. Everyone is probably feeling several confusing emotions right now and you need to start dealing with them openly and as objectively as you can before more damage is done.

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(in reply to DsCoupleOhio)

Post #: 25

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 8:08:29 AM

Homestead

Posts: 1005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DsCoupleOhio

Here is my problem...
Normally I know what to do..but this one blew me out of the water...

Within the last month I have had two people come to visit our Home and stay with us on two seperate occations. I will call them Dick and Jane. Dick is Janes new Master. Jane is a beloved friend and under My care at times. On the first visit, I had not yet aquired my new girl (usagi) but still had my boi. we'll call him tanuki.
This first meeting lead to the boi and Dick "playing" with each other and thus my boi helped Dick emerge from being bi-currious to physically experinced. It was a great weekend for all. Protocol was followed and all had a good time. No boundaries were broken nor were any feet stepped on.

By the second visit, two weeks later, I aquired usagi. (my girl) We have been training her on light protocol and what we expect arround the house for she is the one that will be my hands when I go through surgery. Jane has always been a dear friend since we have met and Dick had given me no reason not to trust him. So we opened the invitation for them to come visit again. They did. Durring this visit, Dick made unbelieveable breaches in protocol.

While my boi was offered to him once again, he kept his eyes on my girl. Me being in the kitchen with Jane the whole time baking and cooking, I did not see this until later when my boi disappeared and I went looking for him. He then informed me that Dick wanted my girl. I was prepared to have a scene and see where things went.
We all decided to take a dip in the pool after dinner and things began to get frisky. I made it clear that I had not yet even played with my girl and to be gentile with the playing. Dick seemed to understand that and backed away going back to Jane who was obviously offended by his actions. But being the submissive did not say anything to him. Once inside, we watched a movie and all mentioned they were tired. The Master of our clan and I went to bed telling usagi and tanuki to get some rest soon. Jane mentioned she was going to bed as well and Dick said he would be in after the movie. All was well.

It wasnt till the next day that I found out he lied to Jane and took advantage of my girl. Not only did he not ask to play with her, he did not ask to attempt hypnosis on her. Without details, He attempted hypnosis, set triggers without my consent, had sex with her and then lied to me and Jane about what all happened the night before. My girl told me the truth about all that happened. Needless to say when I confronted him about it I didnt know Jane didnt know and that caused a HUGE mess. Rather than see WW3 in my livingroom I smoothed things over and made peace with Jane and usagi for my girl was told Jane was okay with it. Hence he lied to her as well.

My question is... What is the proper protocol at this point. They have been gone since sunday and I have been stewing on everything. I unfortunately cannot touch my girl without thinking about what this creep did to her and took from me. It has caused mistrust and hard feelings within the clan and I am afraid I dont know how to handle Dick in this case without loosing my dear friend Jane...

I am hoping maybe someone will know what the proper thing to make this right is...

Thank You All in advance...

Mistress Karasu

Ban Dick from your life and get your girl counselling.

(in reply to DsCoupleOhio)

Post #: 26

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 8:34:40 AM

Jasmyn

Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline

Homestead, nicely said

quote:

First impressions... Jane needs to dumb Dick, you need to dump usagi, tanuki needs to not be such a tell tat, and Jane needs to realise loving someone is not meant to be painful ...

Okay am sorry, dump was probably not the best descriptor without explaination ...in this type of situation I think it is imperative that things are looked at objectively as well as emotionally, from all sides, people need to take responsibilty for what and where they contibuted to a turn of events... it's okay to feel emotions, pain and hurt, and be validated because you are hurting...but she say's can't look at her girl without thinking about what that man did to her and took from her... it's a little melodramatic when she wasn't the one who had whatever happen to her ... if indeed anything amiss did happen ...and if it did, a fetish website forum is not the place to be discussing it when the local constabulary are only a phone call away... so if it's not, and something else happened, usagi either way is better off without collar or claim till she sorts her head out...if it needs sorting out. And if it is not entirely a case of anything sinsister, then who is the dom/me (in this type of situation) angry with/at ... themselves, their sub or the other dominant ... and it's okay to be angry with someone when you're heart and convention tells you, you shouldn't ... talk to usagi ... give Jane a shoulder ...

I really do wish everyone well and hope they all find some peace ... once again good luck ...

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

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(in reply to Homestead)

Post #: 27

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 10:56:41 AM

IndigoDadesi

Posts: 185
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Am I too harsh to call it rape? Perhaps. Here's my thinking: I read the OP to say that this girl was (1) new to the House, and possibly new to slavery, (2) OWNED property, not a submissive, not on trial, not on a "day contract" but an owned slave, and (3) that she was suborned with "hypnotism" (don't get Me started), deception, and possibly isolation. Now, when sex occurs in those circumstances, is it volitional?

--E

I completely agree with you on this one. Anytime sexual contact is coercive it is considered sexual assault and if intercourse was involved its considered rape.

Id also like to say to anyone who is saying the girl is to blame: SHAME ON YOU! People like you are the reason that so many rape victims dont come forward and the reason that so many rapists are able to be repeat offenders.

_____________________________

'"Where do we go when we die?" asks Billy. "I don't know. Where are we now?" is the gypsy's reply.'

(in reply to Emperor1956)

Post #: 28

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 11:49:25 AM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
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First off, NO ONE can be hypnotized against their will. If the slave truly did not want whatever was going on, the slave had every right and capability to voice the objection and to yell for help. If it was in your home, it would have and should have been recognized.

My concern is that you even considered allowing, and did not vehemently object to this guy playing with your brand new girl that you'd not even played with yet.

Regardless of that, I'd clearly remove from my life the people that violated me. That certainly involves Dick, and perhaps even Jane if she knew. Anyone violating your slaves are not your friends, period.

The slave....well, that's a problem. Tossing the slave out now would only serve to damage the individual further. I personally would not cast aside the slave, but, would require some retraining and some serious probation.

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to DsCoupleOhio)

Post #: 29

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 11:53:36 AM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

You made a big mistake. And, although I seldom disagree with Jasmyn, unless I am missing something in this saga, I have the definite impression that you may have inadvertently led usagi to believe that you were okay with her being used by Dick.

That's what I got out of it, but not until the second time I read her post. She never objected to anyone playing with the new girl. I could totally see how the girl got the impression that the OP had sanctioned her being used by the visiting Master.

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 30

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 11:59:56 AM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: georgejames68

I agree with Calandra... I have personally hypnotised several girls without their knowledge, and under this influence you are able to take full advantage of them. This does require an experienced hypnotist, though I did once fully hypnotise a girl totally by accident!!!!! Anybody that thinks that hypnosis is simple and/or safe has a lot to learn about it. A fully hypnotised person can be persuaded by a skilled operator to do nearly anything including things that are obnoxious to the hypnotised person!!!

Visualize a deeply hypnotised girl who is told that you are going to call into the room her husband. Then leave the room and come back in acting as her husband! Do you think for one second that the girl will have any objection to a physical activity if she fully thinks she is with her husband??? Sorry, people, hypnosis is a terribly powerful skill and can be used incorrectly!!!

Master George

I'm going to call you out on this hypno stuff. (A hold a CHt certification myself.) An operator cannot program, condition or trance someone into doing something that they do not want to do. Period. (This goes for telling someone under hypnosis to kill someone, to bring intentional harm to someone, etc.) The subconscious brain will recognize the conflict between the instruction and the free will of the subject. Two things will happen, usually though, the latter -- one, the person wakes up and becomes aware of their surroundings and two, the person simply fails to respond to the command creating the conflict. The ONLY time where someone will do something programmed that one would not expect them to do is in the case of a psychpath that already has a prediliction for murder/assault and is pushed by means of a hypnotic suggestion to go ahead and do whatever it was actively in their mind.

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to georgejames68)

Post #: 31

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 12:19:06 PM

IndigoDadesi

Posts: 185
Status: offline

MisPandora,

Im curious that if one cannot cause another under hypnosis to harm themselves then how do the demonstrations where a hypnotised person allows the hypnotiser to pierce their skin work?

I also hope by saying that a hypnotised person can prevent themselves from doing something that they dont want to do you are not insinuating that the girl is partly to blame for the situation. Although, IMO, it is unclear based on the information we have been given if she is or is not to blame, it is dangerous thinking to place judgement on a potential rape victim...that kind of thinking can harm them psychologically as much if not more than the rape itself.

_____________________________

'"Where do we go when we die?" asks Billy. "I don't know. Where are we now?" is the gypsy's reply.'

(in reply to MisPandora)

Post #: 32

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 1:45:53 PM

HollyS

Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora
I'm going to call you out on this hypno stuff. (A hold a CHt certification myself.) An operator cannot program, condition or trance someone into doing something that they do not want to do. Period. (This goes for telling someone under hypnosis to kill someone, to bring intentional harm to someone, etc.) The subconscious brain will recognize the conflict between the instruction and the free will of the subject. Two things will happen, usually though, the latter -- one, the person wakes up and becomes aware of their surroundings and two, the person simply fails to respond to the command creating the conflict. The ONLY time where someone will do something programmed that one would not expect them to do is in the case of a psychpath that already has a prediliction for murder/assault and is pushed by means of a hypnotic suggestion to go ahead and do whatever it was actively in their mind.

Thank you a thousand times over for saying this! Hypnosis, contrary to the assertions of some here, is not effective on the unwilling. The easiest way to think about this is "All hypnosis is self-hypnosis" -- the person must participate or it doesn't work. He or she may be wary or unsure, but if they are not willing to engage with the process it will fail. End of story.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IndigoDadesi
I'm curious that if one cannot cause another under hypnosis to harm themselves then how do the demonstrations where a hypnotised person allows the hypnotiser to pierce their skin work?

Hypnosis is used frequently to help people undergoing painful medical procedures for whom anesthesia isn't an option. People may be encouraged to visualize in ways that allow them to transcend pain temporarily, during which things like piercing (or debridement for burn victims) can happen. The person clearly is not "harming" themselves in these situations, nor are they allowing harm at the hands of someone else.

A person under hypnosis won't do something they wouldn't normally do otherwise. However, if usagi had any reason to think playing with Dick was allowed, then it's highly likely that under hypnosis she might do so. Also, as a submissive she may have the tendency to respond to Dominant people, which may have contributed to how this played out. Either way, none of this is her fault. Poor household management, unclear instructions, and dismal boundry enforcement have resulted in a horrible situation for usagi and I hope that as her owners, your first priority has been to tend to her needs. Second should be to make sure that anyone who had a hand in this is permanently kept from you and yours. Everything else, especially concerns about protocol, pales in comparison.

~Holly

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(in reply to IndigoDadesi)

Post #: 33

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 1:56:58 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

<fast reply>
I do use hypnosis on occasion, and it is meant for training and to enhance service. One cannot be hypnotized to do something they would not be willing to do. Hypnosis lowers inhibitions.
Which simply takes Me back to My original impression that this new slave may have felt she was tacitly guided toward allowing this "Dick:" to use her, and that may have included a bit of hypnosis. I am not sure how this all played out, as we have too little information, but I still have the idea that she may have just thought she was trying to be obedient, and it went wrong.
The OP has not been back to clarify.

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 8/9/2006 1:58:06 PM >

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(in reply to HollyS)

Post #: 34

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 2:00:50 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

While I agree this isnt the girls fault (though I'm sure every person involved in this fantastic mess is using whatever they can to justify what they did) she MUST take responsibility in her part for allowing it to happen and not let herself be used again.

There could be another story here- the girl could have been making gestures for the dom all along. The girl could have really WANTED the dom to take her the whole time, while still knowing it wasn't the right thing to do. His "hypnosis" of her allows her a convenient way to play the victim.

I'm not saying this is what happened, nor do I justify some dumbass who needs to go after fresh meat in someone else's house when he's already got a willing partner. But no matter how or why it happened the first time, the girl needs to get some work done on herself to make sure she's stable and won't be "taken under" ever again.

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(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 35

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 2:35:13 PM

WhiplashGirlChld

Posts: 78
Joined: 6/18/2006
Status: offline

The problem with all of this dynamic is that we think submission is the same as handing over the right of consent. It is not legally the case, and I don't feel it should be asked of a sub or slave to give absolute consent. I consent to certain tasks at work, even ones I do not like, but I do not consent to being treated badly. I wouldn't ask a sub for this either. Yes, I think the girl had some notion that she had no place to truly object, and perhaps didn't want to. I would have plainly said to Dick that he could look but not touch right off the bat. As to hypnosis - I think I have heard about as much hooey on that topic as I can stand. Whomever it was that siad she has hear a lot of people claim to be experts who aren't has hit the nail right on the head. people who are true experts are so readily apparent as to never have to make the claim so vociferously.

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And sang to a small guitar,
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What a beautiful Pussy you are,
You are,
You are!
What a beautiful Pussy you are!" - Lear

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 36

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 3:29:36 PM

MisPandora

Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IndigoDadesi
Im curious that if one cannot cause another under hypnosis to harm themselves then how do the demonstrations where a hypnotised person allows the hypnotiser to pierce their skin work?

You're asking two different things. HARM, meaning inflicting traumatic injury to one's self or allowing someone else to do it, is NOT possible under hypnosis. Your subconscious will break the trance and either refuse the command, or return to awareness.

How does the piercing work? Not knowing the situation and what prepwork the operator did with the subject, or whether the subject was predisposed to being pierced or showed a previous interest in, or approached the 'tist for the purpose of ridding themself of a phobia against piercing....it's hard to say for that circumstance. However, I'd be willing to say that a trance state was induced and that this individual had a pre-disposition to allowing piercing to consensually happen. (They'd have talked about it for an ethical hypnotist to have done it.....)

quote:

I also hope by saying that a hypnotised person can prevent themselves from doing something that they dont want to do you are not insinuating that the girl is partly to blame for the situation. Although, IMO, it is unclear based on the information we have been given if she is or is not to blame, it is dangerous thinking to place judgement on a potential rape victim...that kind of thinking can harm them psychologically as much if not more than the rape itself.

Slow down. My first reply to the entire thread, after saying that the subject could have yelled for help in this woman's house, stated that Mistress was responsible for not prohibiting someone else from playing with her slave AND that she should not cast aside the slave to prevent further harm from being done.

We don't know anything about what the slave had to say about the situation. And the OP has not said that he forcibly raped the slave against her will. That's been suggested by someone else, and quite honestly, anything is possible at this point. I suspect that lots of folks, probably myself included, have jumped to conclusions about what happened because of a pointed lack of details in the case here. It's been told from a point of view where the author is taking no responsibility for their actions that more than likely allowed this whole conflagration to occur.

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to IndigoDadesi)

Post #: 37

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 3:39:21 PM

Emperor1956

Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
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FastReply. Pandora, I second holly's comments. While I "knew" that stuff about hypnosis, I'm not certified or trained (like you or holly are) to comment on it intelligently. Its nice to get some intelligence around here. And its nice to see the knowledge just about all of the posts bring to salvage, or mitigate (at least) this awful situation.

THAT SAID, have you all noticed the OP has seemingly vanished? This was her first and only post, and while CM says she's been on and off the system all day yesterday and today, not a word here either clarifying, explaining, commenting or even rejecting all that's been said. I don't think she likes being told she screwed up big time. And...

I think we've all been trolled.

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to DsCoupleOhio)

Post #: 38

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 4:02:29 PM

Evanesce

Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline

The first thing that came to my mind was that this "girl" who was so horribly used by the alleged dominant who was actually just a masquerading horndog who needs to be dumped on his ass rather quickly... this "girl" has a mouth. Why didn't she use it? Why did she not say no? If the OP was accurate, this girl knew her alleged mistress didn't want him playing with her, so why didn't she open her mouth and tell the guy where to step off?

Sounds more to me like the girl had a mutual attraction for old Dick, and decided to have herself a good time, and to hell with anyone else's feelings.

_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

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(in reply to enigmabrat)

Post #: 39

RE: What to do when protocol is breached by another Mas... - 8/9/2006 4:59:21 PM

Rumtiger

Posts: 2634
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline

I'm with Denise, according to the OP, Dick told the girl that Jane was okay with what he was doing, but there was no mention of her mistress, this shows a bit of the mutual attraction theory where the concern was with Dick's partner.

If he mentioned Jane instead of the madam of the house ,which we all would say is what would be the natural concern for a slave, it could make a theory that the girl actually asked him about his partner, it makes no sense that the aggresive male would come out of the blue about his partner's consent to a slave who he's barely met rather then that very slave's owner's consent to her being with him.

Looking at things from this perspective it is not too far a leap that the girl made up the story about hypnosis to try to shed away some of that light from her, and to put her in a light as more the victim of a total dickhole who took advantage of an innocent,fresh, new slave, and who apparently has superpowers that can make her a complete zombie to his will, anyone else starting to smell bullshit?

...Just my two cents.

As for the primary question of what to do with Dick...i'd personally fuck him up, but of course you might want something more civilized, so if you have a community which you and he are a part of, bring it to thier attention, his reputation if any does not deserve to be held in any kind of esteem by anyone.

_____________________________

Fuck the Pandas!
-Moi

Mmm, I love me some kickboxers, you know why? Cause ya'll cant take a punch!
- Quentin Tarantino.

If they cant take a joke, fuck em.
-Tucker Max

(in reply to Evanesce)

Post #: 40

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