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RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/26/2004 12:56:17 PM   
MsCameron


Posts: 238
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: proudsub

Another question-does posting here about your private bdsm activities put you in any jeopardy with the law?


Good question.. and I don't know.

If you were in court on a custody dispute, would you want your postings or chat logs introduced?

About 8 or 9 years ago, I knew a girl who was a member of the same bdsm group that I'm a member of.
She lost custody of her son due to her chat logs being read in court. Her husband had found them on their computer.
The real kicker was she hadn't acually done anything. All she had done was play on-line.

It didn't matter. The judge awarded custody to the husband and she ended up with supervised visits.
The last I saw her, she was preparing to petition the court for custody or at the least, unsupervised visitation.

I don't know what eventually happened.

MsC




_____________________________

I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out. Keep going, going...
Lateralis.Tool

(in reply to proudsub)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/26/2004 1:03:50 PM   
1RottenJohnny


Posts: 113
Joined: 11/12/2004
Status: offline 		This subject hit so close to me that I've decided to come out of the shadows and make my first post.
I've avoided getting too deep into the community because I've been in a situation that threatened my freedom in a similar manner. It wasn't a raid but it carried consequences that were just as bad or possibly worse.
I was just starting to get involved with BDSM and the girl I was dating was into making home movies of our activities. At one point we had a very harsh falling out and she threatened to take the videos to the police and have me arrested.
I decided to talk to a lawyer to see what my options were...I didn't have ANY. She didn't do what she had threatened but I discovered I would have been screwed if she had.
This is an ABSOLUTELY accurate post in regards to how the law enforcement community looks at the physical side of BDSM activities. Jules has a point that they can't prosecute Power Exchange but let's face it...many of us enjoy beating each other silly! No matter how light or consentual it may be it's considered assault in legal terms...plain and simple. Has everybody forgotten about the legalities of the term "statutory rape"? How many of you guys out there faced a pissed off parent who discovered you were playing with their "innocent little girl"? It wouldn't have mattered if she was the one who jumped on your rocket. You raped her. Doesn't this partially explain why we all keep discussing "trust" in our BDSM relationships?
Put this all together and you may realize the line you walk every time you pick up a flogger. Don't be foolish enough to think it's no big deal.
Just my opinion. You can tell me to get stuffed if you want to but you won't ever see ME in front of a judge trying to explain myself (I hope).

< Message edited by 1RottenJohnny -- 12/26/2004 2:10:38 PM >

(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/26/2004 4:31:28 PM   
harmony3709


Posts: 292
Joined: 11/15/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with the comments regarding the fact that when it comes to legality, a lot is going to depend on the area you are in at the time, the cops making the raid or becoming aware of what is going on, the judge you happen to come up before, the prosecuting attorney, and the general political feel of that particular community. If there's an election coming up, that could change things as well.


A friend and I were considering the purchase of a 100-year-old pub/dance club that we would then renovate and reopen as a bar and possibly a B&B, since there was an apartment on the second floor we could rent out. We also were hoping to rent the space out to swingers clubs who were looking for kink-friendly establishments to hold parties, and as both my friend and I are involved in BDSM, we hoped to have some dungeon equipment for rental as well. We planned to be completely within the law, neither of us wishing to have any legal ramifications, but at the same time we were both aware that of course there would be some risk involved, as in any "adult" business. We both were aware that, as one example, we could in no way EVER play at any of the parties going on where money had been charged to attend, as that can then lead to a charge of prostitution and other charges.

As it turned out, even though we decided the building required more work than we wished to put into it, our lawyer called me and told me that if we did intend to use it for any BDSM or swingers events, she would never agree to that as our attorney. That particular county in Illinois not only had very stringent zoning laws requiring adult facilities and entertainment, but she said that this particular county had gone to the extent of actually describing specific S & M acts as being expressly prohibited -- something she herself had not come across before, although she had owned some adult businesses herself.

The point of my post basically is that you should never consider yourself to be completely risk free, even at a play party in a private home, and I think that requiring ID to determine appropriate age at a public club is a very good idea, not just for legal reasons, but out of responsibility. And keep in mind that as my attorney told me, she would never own the property of an adult business, (rent only) because the attitude on any community can change at any time and you never know when your business (and those who attend it) will become the next candidate's political cry of how they are going to "clean up the community and protect the children" etc etc etc.

I, for one, am grateful to the ones who continue to hold events, open clubs, run munches, etc. I do attend lifestyle events and will continue to do so and may still open a club with my partner at some time. I just do it all with my eyes open and taking whatever precautions that I consider to be reasonable, such as the original post suggests. I can only hope that at some time in the future, those people in positions to arrest and prosecute will actually use common sense and logic in their actions and decisions regarding who are criminals and who are not; who are a menance to society and who are not.

A peaceful and harmonious New Year to all! (And one not spent in the county jail, lol!)

harmony

< Message edited by harmony3709 -- 12/26/2004 4:35:25 PM >

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/26/2004 6:27:37 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: proudsub

Another question-does posting here about your private bdsm activities put you in any jeopardy with the law?


Good question.. and I don't know.


Thank you for replying Ms Cameron. I don't need to worry about custody unless someday I want custody of grandchildren for some reason. But your point is well taken.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to MsCameron)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/26/2004 7:25:56 PM   
ProScatman


Posts: 167
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Ohio
Status: offline 		I understand where you are coming from too, but, Football is an accepted sport, and is not illeagal. BSDM isn't on television, isn't performed in stadiums, and those who are good at it don't sign multi million dollar contracts. Maybe someday the lifestyle will be accepted, but like the Pagens of old, we must not give our real names and addresses when attending functions. There are check cashing places all over the place, so no reason. As a side note, we caught police marking peoples tires with chalk out in front of a private club I belonged to. Do you think they called in the plate for an I.D.? I'm sorry, but I'm cynicle, and believe in privacy, and know there are people out there who would love to jail every one of us! Thank you MemphisDSCouple for bringing this subject to light.

_____________________________

The objection to Puritans is not that they try to make us think as they do, but that they try to make us do as they think.

Have a good day, Mike

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 1:19:10 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Then you can't make blanket statements about the law. The fact is that some jurisdictions DO include consent, by statute, as an exclusion to or defense against assault. That invalidates your theory that assault is always criminal even in the case of consent.

We all agree with you that you should generally avoid giving your real name and address to a BDSM organization. There's not much more to say about that. But I also believe in a free America with a basic right to privacy, and I'm not going to live like a worm just because I'm afraid the government might prosecute me for the kind of sex I enjoy. If it ever happens, I'm ready for it.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple

I am not an attorney.


(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 3:28:54 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Allright first off I have yet to hear the original poster answer My question.
Ill ignore the ignorant and make My comments as I have experianced such.

Of those whom have posted here save the one person threatened by making
a tape of his actions, whom has first handedly had experiance being involved
with being busted in a group? spent time in jail due to attendance to a munchie
or dungeon or kink show? Have their society busted? Hmmmm been there
done that thrice now and what the original poster is stateing is NOT facts.
There are no BDSM laws on the books in the USA period. There are however
laws against certain actions that take place with in a BDSM structure and it
is those laws which you must be CAUGHT breaking in order to be busted for
them. ( and yes a taped movie of your actions is being caught.... duhhh )

I was busted for attending a Kink Fest where items being sold there were
illigal in the County it was held at and I had purchased such a item and was
then arrested for the act along with the seller. Yes there were undercover
present just waiting for someone like Me to buy the product in question.
( It was a violet wand )

I attended a Freinds club in Michigan where it was raided due to undercover witnessing
a act they deemed was illigal in their jurisdiction. ( actuall touching of the partisapants
thigh during a single tail pussy lip whipping was the deemed illigal act ) There was a
three foot law it seems for what was deemed adult clubs there.
When the club was deemed to have been breaking the law of decency it is the
owner and the employees whom are taken to jail and prosicuted not the members
they are sent home and out of the club except for the person or persons whom
were performing the act deemed indecent.

My private dungeon has been raided and closed down in the past due to a complaint by a
exmember that We held regular bondage sessions where persons where enslaved
by ropes in such a way that they could not get lose on their own. There was a law on
the books concerning bondage by rope not allowed to be practice if the partisapant
could not get out of the bondage their self. Go figgure.... That charge ended up being
dropped for lack of evidence because it took the person whom was in bounds to testify.
( yea right like the person in bounds there enjoying their self is gonna testify for a exmember
whom fucked up in the first place.......)
Ha! So you see it depends on what laws are in place in the place you are at which
can either make you or break you and your adult place of play and well being.

When the club is inspected and regulated if it is private and by membership a
roaster of the members must be shown with sum form of proof that they are
actual people. Many use a legal ID as that form but most Wise clubs use other
forms such as Nick Names and releases signed to certain facts with in the private
club with club dues collected never using a real name. But your membership name
what ever it is will be on file.

Basically it goes back to the thought of, Will you as an adult stand up for what you
desire and beleive in or will you look at what you do as being wrong and let others
dicktate what you will or will not do if it does not harm another person or place
except in the way that all partys involve consent to? Some laws need to be broken I say.
Course Ive stood up and gone to jail for other laws that were in place as well right here
in the USA. Like drinking out of the wrong public water faset.Went to jail and payed a fine for that act. Wnt to jail for partisapating in a sitin on a college campus for a man whos books and
written word were being taken from him and his words being blacklisted from being published.
went to jail for that act too and payed a fine to get out. I now drink out of what ever public drinking fountain I so wish and I read the mans books when I want to. ThankYou. Get My drift?

<~~ happy Kwanzaa dance!

< Message edited by MistressDREAD -- 12/27/2004 3:29:53 AM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 3:38:49 AM   
lovingmaster45


Posts: 261
Joined: 9/16/2004
Status: offline 		The original post contained nothing but TRUTH; but the words "You can't handle the truth" keep coming back to me.
People, no one in law enforcement gives a damn what you "think" or what you "believe" or what kind of lofty ideas of "privacy" you might have. I am a retired professor of criminology and I can't begin to tell you the times people have been arrested and imprisoned on phoney charges and made up and/or planted evidence. With what we do, they only have to gather the remnants of our play to make a spectacular spread in the local paper. In case you missed one of the original points...the law is political. It makes no difference to them if the conviction is there; by simply making the arrests they have done their "civic duty" by at the very least running you back underground.

And lest we forget, it does not even take law enforcement to play havoc with our lifestyle; does no one remember what happened to Black Rose 2003? The "good people" in Ocean City, MD and the Dr. Laura radio show shut an entire resort down and drove BR back to their old stomping grounds; where the police were used to them and were confident that their annual convention would not result in any embarassment for the police and community leaders.

I was involved in a swingers group in Columbia, SC that had a horrendous run-in with the court system. One of the member's spouse hired a computer geek to come in and access all the data on the home computer. Not only was the cheating spouse drug into court, but everyone on the club's email list was called into court. What a zoo; over 70 people waiting to be called to testify. We were not; but our presence was enough to get the "cheater" to virtually hand over the assets and the children. BTW, anyone who did not immediately cooperate with the procedures were threatened with prosecution under the felony statutes of SC for various and sundry violations of the law. ( sodomy, fornication, adultery, crimes against nature)

I left more than one bdsm group because of their lack of understanding of the law. Can't tell you how much time these people wasted discussing what the age of a participant should be; like there was some magic age that would make it OK for a person to express their attraction to bdsm.

My Head Bitch and I now run an alternative lifestyle group here now; but only people we have met and personally cleared can join and attend functions. It is still not 100% safe; but then nothing is.

The original post and mine make the same point...IF THEY WANT YOU, THEY WILL GET YOU.



_____________________________

Master Jerry


(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 3:47:11 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		aaahhh Jerry but We are the Ones that dont mind pissin in the wind either now are We? ~smiles~

(in reply to lovingmaster45)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 7:57:17 AM   
1RottenJohnny


Posts: 113
Joined: 11/12/2004
Status: offline
quote:


People, no one in law enforcement gives a damn what you "think" or what you "believe" or what kind of lofty ideas of "privacy" you might have.


Amen!

(in reply to lovingmaster45)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 8:22:42 AM   
MsCameron


Posts: 238
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

Basically it goes back to the thought of, Will you as an adult stand up for what you
desire and beleive in or will you look at what you do as being wrong and let others
dicktate what you will or will not do if it does not harm another person or place
except in the way that all partys involve consent to? Some laws need to be broken I say.

ThankYou. Get My drift?
<~~ happy Kwanzaa dance!


Yep, I get your drift. Though I still come back to "it depends on what you have to lose".

If anyone is "out" and is willing to be an advocate for the lifestyle, great :) wonderful and I applaud you. Happy Ho HO's.

But I am not willing to lose my kids. In fact, I'm not willing to have my chosen lifestyle become public to anyone that I don't choose to inform.

I was in a situation not that long ago where someone who had a bone to pick with me threatened to inform Childrens Aid, my ex and my mother about me. They also tried to find out where my children went to school. Let me tell you, all the laws protecting ME didn't mean squat when faced with that possibility. Nor did the broohaha about SSC.

Thankfully, they did not follow through on their threat. Edited to add: They did not follow through because they did not get the information they needed to do so. (correct last names, correct cities and place of employment) It wasn't a matter of an empty threat or a change of mind. When they did get the information on someone close to me, it was followed through. I was just lucky that the people that knew that personal information protected me.

I'm as careful as I can be and this situation still happened. This was a person I had met 3 times and barely knew.

Please don't quote this reply as I will delete my response by tomorrow.

MsC


< Message edited by MsCameron -- 12/27/2004 11:08:54 AM >

_____________________________

I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out. Keep going, going...
Lateralis.Tool

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 9:43:37 AM   
bottominwa


Posts: 240
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Recently, here at collarme...the girl was approached by a Domly Dom. (name witheld) she kindly refused...next thing you know Domly Dom is sending threatening email saying He is going to contact the DOD and email all Our content here to such, We make no point to hide Master is active duty Army. He goes so far to track Our isp and forward me the number to shwo He knows it. So....yes in the real world shitty people do shitty things...but the real question will always be how do Y/you choose to live Y/your life. Scared, hiding in shadows...or as the living breathing person Y/you are?
We have for the ten years We have been living this way and jointly int he Army made no qualms or lengths to hide who We are. And so far...nothing, no reprecussions of any sort.
By and large the problem will never be solved by being closeted...it is as was said previoulsy in the thread....if more people were open about who T/they are it would be less easily prosecuted.
For that matter according to the Army every position other than missionary is subject to court marshall...lol, so unless They expect the entire Army ot also be Amish They would have a field day enforcing Their old century laws.


Legally, it will always be a quandary over consent. So the real lesson is be careful, super, extra careful who You collar.

sabrina King

House of King

(in reply to MsCameron)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 10:46:18 AM   
bottominwa


Posts: 240
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		The girl wand to add a note on kids. Now this house is also of a minority in the religious department. And whilst statationed at a Southern bible belt post somehow by Our act of breathing offended a bible thumping feminazi neighbor...who literally did everythign humnaly possible to either get us kicked out of military housing for a pentacle grapevine on Our door, or Our children taken away because We must be having group orgys in Our living room etc. IN the end it proved an example of people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The one thing for sure thsi girl will say about living "out" in public as anything other than main stream you to some degree make yoursefl succeptable to attack of the jealous et all. So We have always combatted this by living above and beyond reproach. In Our case We had what was referred to as the "cleanest" house on post...lol. Also Our children excel in school and extracurricualr activities, Master has a spotless and well decorated record, and the girl has been an active member of every military community she lived in. she was the elected mayor of a communiyt of 330 families when the character assault started....and was reelected...all laundry hanging in the air for everyone to see the following year. So...for Us atleast living in the open has done nothing but educate people. I thas at times caused Us annoyances of people, but jealous people or vindictive people are just that.
It stands to reason form Master's point of view also guilt is often summized by omission. So We live as openly as need be, without flaunting anything ridiculously, but not hiding anything...and if at some point this girl goes bonkers and attempts to accuse HIm of anything liek the forementioned case He has more than a plethra of avenues ot prove she has been a willing participant for years.
Now one more aside anyoen on here who thinks that just by having some fancy nickname ot post anywhere Your privacy is intact ..think again. Your computer is trackable, so if some nazi FBI really wanted to track You they could no matter how many screen names You had.
Master always says "I have nothing to hide, I am who I am. And if people want to persecute me for who I am, than they will find a way to do that no matter what I am."

Our entire lives revolve around protecting freedom and the sacrifices entailed to do so. We aren't about to ly down and cater to anyone's ideas of who or what We should be.

sabrina King

House of King

(in reply to MsCameron)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 11:18:22 AM   
RealityFix


Posts: 156
Joined: 8/12/2004
Status: offline 		We fly under the radar to do this as it is.

I refuse to belong to formal clubs and groups that keep "lists" these days.

Including the main one in town, who's owner pushes that you somehow have to belong to HER club or you can't possibly be "safe". I'm not buying it.

If you fear being compromised and persecuted ,you really only have one choice in the current political atmosphere..Keep you head down,and choose your partners with great caution.

Learn that WE as a group with bdsm practices do NOT have freedom to do anything we please,under the law,and only the fact that most of us aren't worth making an example of lets us do this at all.

(in reply to bottominwa)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 11:45:23 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Then you're saying the exact same thing I am.

What seems to be bothering everyone is that the legal system isn't certain. It's not possible to predict, with 100% accuracy, what a court is going to decide. So you can never be sure that what you're doing isn't going to land you in trouble.

But the same is true of a lot of things. It's not just BDSM, and it's not just the law. Life is uncertain, and I think your basic strategy for coping with the uncertainties of life has to be about the same as your basic strategy for coping with the uncertainties of the legal system. You get to know as much about the risks as you can, and then you carve out your own life within those parameters. I don't think it's reasonable to base your life on the principle that the roof might cave in on you if you walk into a building, and I don't think it's reasonable to base your life on the principle that the bad-guys might arrest you and make your life miserable if you pursue an alternative sexuality. You have to be who you are, and if the bad-guys give you a hard time about it, then fight back. What's the alternative?

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingmaster45

It is still not 100% safe; but then nothing is.

The original post and mine make the same point...IF THEY WANT YOU, THEY WILL GET YOU.

(in reply to lovingmaster45)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 1:41:30 PM   
1RottenJohnny


Posts: 113
Joined: 11/12/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

I attended a Freinds club in Michigan where it was raided due to undercover witnessing


On behalf of those of us in the tight-assed, zealot-controlled, state of Michigan I offer my apologies for the unnecessary hassle you were forced to endure. Many of us have tried to change it but it doesn't ever seem to make a difference.
After reading all of these posts I wonder if there is a way to limit any legal actions by changing the way we conduct parties. Would it make a difference if couples who want to play were "listed" in some manner (legal or otherwise) as performers or actors? Just a thought. Any opinions?

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 6:06:03 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Ive had many opinions over the years Johnny but the bottom line is this
Ive been afforded My right to liberty and the persuit of My happiness and
I will do such regardless of what current rule of the past might inpose apon
My rights to My liberty. Rules were made to be broken if outdated and minorally
opinionated. I work towards such rules becomming the minority but its a ruff
road to travel and not one many are willing to sacrifice what needs be to be
victorious. I have no problem nor issue standing up for what I feel is right in
My eyes even if it goes against the majority. Sacrifice sometimes have to be
made. The constituion gives Me that right and that right overules many rules..

(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 6:11:29 PM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		and Johnny no apoligy nessisary
Id stand up to it a thousand times again till
the tides are turned there.....One has to
stick to their guns thru thick and thin sometimes.
Even when it is not popular. Ive thought
about using the public waterways and a
steam roller ship to open up a club much like
the gambling ships do and use the international
waterway laws to protect Our places of play.
Can you see it now a ship in every nook and
crannie on lake michigan? LOL![/font

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 7:44:55 PM   
1RottenJohnny


Posts: 113
Joined: 11/12/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

Ive thought about using the public waterways and a
steam roller ship to open up a club much like
the gambling ships do and use the international
waterway laws to protect Our places of play.
Can you see it now a ship in every nook and
crannie on lake michigan? LOL!


Eureka!! Now HERE'S an idea! I'm going to seriously look into this. Anybody else interested? Anybody got some info on marine law?

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: BDSM Groups and the Law - 12/27/2004 11:02:32 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

Eureka!! Now HERE'S an idea! I'm going to seriously look into this. Anybody else interested? Anybody got some info on marine law?


I mentioned this idea last summer, could be a lot of fun:

cruise

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to 1RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 40
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