RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM

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Alumbrado -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/15/2006 6:33:48 PM)
Daaaayuuum...this thing sure did spin out of control from a simple trolling expose to duelling defenders of the faith... Well, before it blows up completely, here's a little something on why tossing around labels like Muslim, or Pagan, or Buddhist, or Christian, is not too very useful. Just as Christianity has to take the Inquisition and Fred Phelps alongside the Quakers, the neo-Pagans have to share that title with these charming folks: quote: New brand of Odinist religion on the march A neo-Pagan religion drawing on images of fiercely proud, boar-hunting Norsemen and their white-skinned Aryan womenfolk is increasingly taking root among Skinheads, neo-Nazis and other white supremacists across the nation. Asatrú leaders have opened prison ministries in at least five states recently, and their many jailed followers are heavily white supremacist. A leading proselytizer, iimprisoned terrorist David Lane, has been writing prolifically and influencing many to adopt his racist interpretations. Bob Mathews, the late founder of The Order, of which Lane was a member, adopted a series of related beliefs. A Denver Skinhead who confessed to the November murder of a man because he was black bears an Asatrú tattoo. Some key Asatrú leaders have known neo-Nazi or anti-Semitic backgrounds http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=451 quote: ...Alternative religions, in particular racist forms of Odinism and Asatrú, continued to make strides among young white supremacists — to the point where one leading expert says that more than half of young people now entering the supremacist movement consider themselves pagans. This development, increasingly marked over the last several years, comes as more and more racists reject Christianity, which is seen as overly “soft.” The “might is right” mentality of racist Odinism is viewed by these youths as far more attractive. http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_hate.jsp?id=120

WhipTheHip -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/15/2006 6:53:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Slipstreme Hey, Whip, why don't you leave talking about religion alone, and start talking about BDSM for a change? Hi Slip, You ask a very good question. Most of my post are about bdsm. But I can't stop talking about religion because it is a very important suject to me--one that is even more near and dear to my heart than bdsm. > For one no one, and I mean NO ONE, Christian, Muslim, Jews, Buddhists, Krishna's, > Wiccans, want to have their relgion blasted in front of their face. You can blast my religion all you want. My religion is Loving-kindness. Please forgive me, but it is not my intention to cause anyone here any grief. But I feel it is important for Christians to know the history of their religion. Even today Christians are waging a war against gays, against those who practice bdsm, against stem cell research, against sexual freedom between consenting adults. There are witch hunts going on today instigated by Christian doctrine. > Yes, Christians committed terrible acts. So have others Sorry, I don't buy this defense. Your Honor, so what my group and belief system is responsible for the turtore and murder of millions of people, my group and belief system has not been the only group and belief system responsible for countless unspeakable atrocities. First, there has not been another group of people or belief system in the history of mankind that has come close to doing the evil Christians have done. Second, they are still trying to force their lifestyle on me and others. Third, they are primarily responsible for the sexually repressed society we live in. Fourth, they are always minimizing their atrocities. Fifth, there are many belief systems that do not cause evil. I ask Christians to look at Buddhists and Bahaists. If you claim that all beliefs lead to the kind of evil Christianity has caused, I ask you why Buddahism and Bahaism never led to a single atrocity, let alone countless atrocities. > Taking pleasure in someone else's pain, controlling the populance by terror > and horror, or using religion as a reason to kill, maim, torture, control and > destroy are not new concepts to human behaviour. They are to Buddhists and Bahaists and the people's of many religions. Maybe it is human nature for Christians to kill, maim, torture, control and destroy, but this has ***NEVER* been seen once in Buddahism or Bahaism or many other religions that have been around for thousands of years. > However, you seem to be saying it is the religion (in this case Christianity) > not human behaviour, that is at fault. Exactly!!! > People need something to believe in, so they choose gods. Big Mistake! Belief in Gods is a MAJOR reason why we have had so many wars, it is why the world may end in a bang. Belief in Gods lead good people astray. I don't think bin Ladin and Torquemada are bad people. They just have evil beliefs. If bin Ladin and Torquemada did not believe in any God, if they just believed in loving kindness they never would have caused the unspeaking horrors they caused. It is a big mistake when people choose to believe in gods or some God over reason and compassion.** > So be it. Lay off blasting Christianity, Sorry, I can't do it. Christians killed, murdered, tortured, persecuted, and burned at the stake too many members of my family. Not once, but again and again and again, unrelentingly for over a thousand years. > and blaming it for the causes of the worlds problems. I never blamed Christianity for the world's problems, but now that you mention it, Christianity is to blame for the biggest world problem: "Over-population." You a have Pope telling Catholics in super poor, third world countries with limited resources not to practice birth control, and to propogate like cockroaches. Go to the Philippines and you will find despair and poverty beyond belief. And who is to blame? The Pope. No matter how fast they grow their economy they can't keep up with their population growth. Philippinos are exported all over the world where they work for slave wages so they can support their starving families back home. > Even if it is used to justify such acts, it it ultimately > the one who practices those acts that is at fault. I don't buy that. Other belief systems do not produce such atrocities. I don't fault Torquemada. He thought he was doing good. I was once a fundamentalist myself, and could have done anything in God's name. I wasn't an evil person. If I had done evil, my belief system would have been responsible. I don't think bin Ladin is an evil person. I wouldn't mind having him as a next door neighbor or a friend if he was a Tibeten Buddhist or a Bahaist. It is his religious beliefs that make him dangerous. Likewise, Chritianity is a sick, vile, danagerous religion just like Wahhabi Islam. Christians have never been tolerant, not even of fellow Christians. Did you see my long list of people's totally exterminated by Christians? Best regards, Michael

WhipTheHip -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/15/2006 7:00:29 PM)
The thing is most Christians today are descendants of Christians who supported the first and second Inquisitions. Most neo-Pagans today have nothing to do with the neo-Pagans who are racist.

LadyEllen -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 4:43:53 AM)
I'd just like to state for the record that I am not a racist OK? Neither am I a homophobe, transphobe or any other label anyone might like to stick on me in order to dismiss me as a follower of Asatru or Asatru itself. The nazis stole and abused much of our holy lore and symbols for their bullshit christian inspired political aims. Right now, because of the antipathy that Asatruar are showing towards them (and believe me, there are a lot more of us than them and they are cowards) they are in the process of stealing Celtic symbology and lore instead, so they wont be associated with us as non racists. Shame for the Celtic heritage, but I'm pleased that the sunwheel might one day be restored to what it is. The neo nazis of today mainly comprise a bunch of vulnerable, ill educated, undirected young men who are filled with testosterone, youthful aggression and resentment. As such they are easily led, and easily caught and this is why so many of them are in prison - the best place for them. That they then latch on to a perverted form of Asatru in order to justify themselves is not good, but understandable, since Asatru is an ethnic folk religion and much of their gripe is with other ethnic groups - it provides a means of distinction for them against the rest of the prison population, who are also formed into gangs along ethnic lines. Asatru is nothing to do with racism, naziism or any similar foolishnesses. Asatru is the victim here, not the perpetrator. However Asatru is also about respect for others as long as they show respect for you, and is not a "turn the other cheek" religion - that the nazis have such a healthy fear of us as to be adopting Celtic lore and symbols is I hope sufficient evidence of the means in use by which we are countering their transgressions against us, and thus our antipathy for them and their politics. A lot more than the church did to disassociate itself from their Jew-hating forbears. E

LadyEllen -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 4:56:48 AM)
And to try to restore this thread to what it was - Asatru also celebrates our sexual and erotic capacities, unlike Christianity which suppresses them and so leads their bigots to be anti-bdsm, anti-gay and anti-anything not designed to procreate children for the greater glory of God - and that includes anti-any pleasure you might derive from that procreative activity too. What a shame Augustine wasnt martyred on the shoreline. We wouldnt have any of these problems with questioning our validity as erotic beings or worrying over whether we're adults doing what we enjoy or sicko perverts that are destined for hell. We wouldnt have to put up with wasting so much time to justify and defend something which is a natural expression of ourselves as people. We would be laughing at these bigots instead of having to hide ourselves and conceal our activities behind the locked doors of private clubs and pseudonyms. The Romans before Constantine had the right idea - send them to the God they love so much, in as much suffering as that God seems to require. And yes, I am bloody angry! E

WhipTheHip -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 5:18:56 AM)
Hi Lady Ellen, I knew you had nothing to do with the intolerant neo--Pagans. But I really believe it is time for us to create and be part of a new religion--one that is dedicated to loving-kindness and nothing else. Yes Tibetn Buddhism has similar values, but it has extraneous primitive beliefs. I want a religion where people believe in science, but worship helping all. I am not a pacifist, either. But I don't believe people are anymore responsible for their behavior than sharks are responsible for their behavior. I did not chose to be a good person. I am that way because of my upbringing. I had a good chance to study people who are criminals. I used to hate such people, and thought they all should die. Then I discovered there are reasons why everybody is the way they are. So, I blame no one for their conduct. This does not mean I let dangerous dogs roam the streets, it just means I don't hate dangerous dogs. Just because a dog is dangerous, and hurt many people, I don't want to see it suffer. Likewise, just because a human is dangerous and has hurt many people, I don't want to see that person suffer. With compassion, understanding and loving kindness always, Michael

NastyDaddy -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 6:12:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip ... I really believe it is time for us to create and be part of a new religion--one that is dedicated to loving-kindness and nothing else. That idea coupled with a King's desire for new taxpayers is pretty much what got the indians slaughtered and the west won... From that potpouri melting pot cesspool of indian killers spawned the Falwells, Bakers and even koolaid Jimmy Jones... Carrying the torch forward in style we have Jeff Phelps and his hit squad of loving daughters... Yep these new religions certainly get things done and show others the right way... until they are superceded or forcefully disbanded and leaders jailed for their crimes.

zumala -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 6:17:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip Jesus Christ!!! Christians practically invented torture. The word "torture" comes from a Latin word meaning twist, because Christians used to strap naked females down on a table and twist rope around their arms and legs until bone broke. They invented a device called "the pear" that was insert into the female pussy that opened up wider and wider until the it tore the vagina apart. They invented a three pronged device that tore the breasts of a female off her body. They invented the wooden horse. They lowered men and women onto a pyramid shaped object. They invented the Mideval torture chamber with rack and wheel. Whatever the Romans did to Christians was nothing compared to what Christians did to fellow Christians. The Knights Templar were Christians who protected their fellow Christians on their way to the Holy Land. When they were no longer needed, all the Knights Templers were gathered together and very slowly tortured to death. They slowly burned the Chief Knight Templer starting with his toes, then the soles of his feet, then his feet, then his calfs. Everytime he went unconscious they kept reviving him. They forced naked females to eat barley, then forced them to drink water and watched while the stomachs of their victims slowly expanded and burst. There were three inquisitions that lasted over 1,000 years. The Poop never apologized for these atrocities. Catholics and Protestants slaughtered and tortured each other en mass. Christians committed genocide again and again. They exterminated the Cathars, and the Gnostics. Anyone who thinks todays fanatical Muslims are blood thirsty never studied the history of Christianity. Jesus never claimed to be God. Christians burned all kinds of people at the stake. They accused lesbians of being witches. They accused the mentally ill as being possed by the devil and needing to be burned at the stake. The bible says you can judge a tree by its fruit. Belief in Christianity has led to unspeakable horrors. Christians burned at the stake anyone who said the sun is at the center of the solar system. They burned Giordano Bruno alive at the stake. They used to whip themselves. There is a major catholic sect today that tortures themselves. This sect has a special connection to the Pope. The world was plunged into darkness for almost 2,000 years because Christians tried to suppress reading anything other than the bible and tried their best to suppress any knowledge outside their religious dogma. What kind of moral being says worship me and all is forgiven, fail to worship me, and no matter how good you are, I will torture you for all Eternity? What kind of intelligent being claims to be all powerful, but claims not to be responsible for the suffering in Hell of those who didn't worship him. Any adult who believes that Santa Claus is God is nuts or God is Santa Claus is nuts. And that is exactly what every Christian believes. That God is some super, Santa Claus that watches you when you do good, and watches you when you do bad, and at the end of your life rewards those who are good, and punishes those who are bad. This God is like some super Santa Claus for guilible adults. Does anyone find it funny that the bible which is supposed to the word of the creator of the universee does not reveal a single thing about the universe that wasn't all ready known to mankind? Give me a break. There is no atheist like one that studied the bible for years. In the Bible God suppossedly writes, "Do not put a stumbling block before the blind." This is meant figuratively. Yet, this is exactly what some omnipotent, omniscient being is doing if He existed. Christians say there is no right or wrong, there is only God's will. In other words Christians believe there would be nothing wrong with slowly torturing innocent children to death if there was no God. In other words Christians believe there is nothing innately wrong with psychopaths, that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with being viscious, mean, cruel, selfish, and self-centered. Actually, if there is a God, he does slowly torture innocent children to death. There are many diseases that do just this. If there is a God, he must be responsible for all of nature. Man did not cause the Tsunami that drowned a hundred thousand people. Drowning is a horrible death. If anyone has a mental illness it is the folks that believe in fairy tales, that believe some guy who died two thousand years ago is God. People two thousand years ago were very guillible and believed all kinds of non-sense. Things haven't changed much. Today in the news I read, water is coming out of some tree, and 40% of people think it is God's water. How stupid and guilible can people be? People believe crop circles are caused by aliens, and there is human face on Mars. All this in a day and age where we understand over 90% of natural phenomenea. Two thousand years ago, people were super guilible and believed every crazy thing. Some people believed rocks were all powerful. The new and improved God of the New and Improved Bible is totally incompatible with the God of the old and outdated Bible. Christians don't even celebrate their Sabbath on the right day of the week. Jesus never observed God's Sabbath on Sunday. He never claimed to be God, nor did he ever say to worship Sunday, as God's day of rest. This little modification was made my Constintine, an Emperior. Early Christianity was filled with pagan customs, and it still is. Religous folk are the nut cases that need to be locked away in mental institutions. Well... I guess I've just thoroughly been insulted since I'm a Christian. That happens sometimes, so I'm not really upset about it. I'll just say, however, that I disagree with some of what you have stated. "Christians say there is no right or wrong, there is only God's will. In other words Christians believe there would be nothing wrong with slowly torturing innocent children to death if there was no God. In other words Christians believe there is nothing innately wrong with psychopaths, that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with being viscious, mean, cruel, selfish, and self-centered. " I've never heard any Christian that I know say that, nor have I ever heard it preached. I certainly don't think, feel, or believe that way myself. Therefore, I object. "Today in the news I read, water is coming out of some tree, and 40% of people think it is God's water. How stupid and guilible can people be?" Oh, yes, that tree. I saw it on the news. Apparently it's not located that far from me. I don't know about 'God's water' because I haven't heard anyone mention it that way. I don't doubt that some have said so, though. The only thing I know about it currently is that no one knows why it's doing what it's doing. For the moment, science is baffled. I suspect they'll figure it out eventually. I'm sure God could easily cause a tree to spout water if He wanted to, but in this particular instance I'm not sure why He would. Therefore, I'm curious about the reason why it's happening. Hopefully someone will figure it out. "Religous folk are the nut cases that need to be locked away in mental institutions. " You really should try to avoid blanket statements. That's a surefire way to be incorrect. zuma

saltwatercowgirl -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 7:33:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip Yes Tibetn Buddhism has similar values, but it has extraneous primitive beliefs. I want a religion where people believe in science, but worship helping all. Tibetan Buddhism is indeed tied down by many rituals and suerstitious beliefs, but there are other schools of Buddhism, such as Theraveda and Zen, that eschew rituals and stick to the core teachings of the Buddha, who was one of the earliest scientific thinkers and encouraged followers to think critically and test the wisdom of his teachings themselves. Scientific ideals, methods and practice are basically inline with buddhist teachings, along with the Buddhist ideals of loving-kindness to all, and achieving enlightmentment through honest and modest living, and quiet reflection. Buddhism appeals to me more and more as a religion that can bring peace and happiness to people without conflicting with modern scientific principles, without excluding or alienating any group of people and whos concepts stand up to ctitical examination, unlike other religions.

LadyEllen -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 7:33:50 AM)
zumala - I just wanted to say that it is Christianity or more accurately Churchianity, and the extraneous stuff in the Bible (ie anything other than the gospels) with which I have a problem OK? I personally know that faith in Jesus Christ brings salvation, and I have respect for anyone who achieves that for real. Its just that its not for me, and I dont respect anyone trying to force Christianity or its values on me - I have another path. E

zumala -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 10:10:33 AM)
LadyEllen, I learned about ten years ago NOT to try to press my beliefs on anyone else. I may consider something a sin, but I know that I cannot force anyone to do anything or believe anything. I do not accept some things, but neither do I attack people for them. That is my definition of tolerance. I cannot and will not ever attempt to defend what others have done in the name of "Christianity" that were so obviously not Christ-like at all. Such as the Inquisition and the Crusades. I consider those things to be events that occured when men allowed their base nature to over-ride so that they sought their own gain in the name of Christ. I never view anyone by what they call themselves (many claim Christ but clearly do not follow Him). I look at what they say and do. I do not approve of what many 'sects' and 'churches' have done. I do not belong to any denomination myself. I merely believe in God and seek the truth, rather than swallow whatever 'Church leaders' may throw at me. zuma

Slipstreme -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 10:28:17 AM)
quote: You can blast my religion all you want. My religion is Loving-kindness I wasn't blasting your religion, now was I? I was just saying Christians don't want to feel like their religion is being blasted, and neither does anyone else. I already know Christian history. It is not something I am proud of (except for the invention of the torture apparatuses, not the fact they were used on the unwilling). I never said Buddhists were violent. I just said violence exists elsewhere, among people of other religions, a blanket, general statement. It does not specify all religions. Hell I wish people would act more like Buddhists anyway. I just don't think they should have to give up their belief in their God(s) to do it. After all, in the example of modern Christianity. It is becoming more tolerant. Do I like the fact it is still used as a reason of trying to control people's personal lives? No. I also know that had I been a Christian of old, I would have burned at the stake, but that wouldn't change my beliefs in God. The only part of my heritage I am proud of is my Native American blood, and even the Cherokees were deadly violent. Don't believe me? Read up on the Cree and the Cherokee. Even if their wars were not religiously based, they were still wars. People still died at the hands of other people. I think you would benefit by being a little more tolerant yourself. Cause, I don't care if your religion is a kinder, gentler religion with no history of violence, I'm not giving up my God, and I don't think a single Christian here would, irregardless of how nonviolent, and tolerant or deviant they are. And I still think this conversation belongs off the community discussions boards. Religion has nothing to do with discussions about BDSM. This has become a blatantly off topic discussion, and even if it were a different non-BDSM subject, I would still make that statement, not just because of the subject matter of this thread.

Slipstreme -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 10:32:31 AM)
quote: Asatru also celebrates our sexual and erotic capacities, unlike Christianity which suppresses them and so leads their bigots to be anti-bdsm, anti-gay and anti-anything not designed to procreate children for the greater glory of God - and that includes anti-any pleasure you might derive from that procreative activity too This, I unfortunately have to agree with. And this, as well as the fact I embrace the practices of Wicca, is the reason I still say that according to the Christians, I am not Christian, but it is the label I choose for myself and my version of the Christian God. .................................. As such, Whip, I still feel like I need to defend the religion when it is blasted. Because it is still "my" religion, even if "my" people will never accept me back.

popeye1250 -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 10:34:26 AM)
As the saying goes, I don't think I'm going to go to hell because I refuse to send in a check to some preacher with a bad haircut on t.v.

zumala -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 10:44:03 AM)
Okay... I would say that's pretty obvious, popeye. [:D] Giving people money has absolutely nothing to do with heaven or hell in the sense that you've just mentioned. I'm amazed when I see the guys on TV talking like that. They're certainly one of the groups giving Christianity a bad name. zuma

popeye1250 -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 11:26:58 AM)
Zumala, yeah! And what's with those guys and the HAIR??? What the hell is THAT all about?

LadyEllen -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 11:46:41 AM)
They need the money, 'cause there's hell toupe

zumala -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 11:53:18 AM)
ROFLOL!! I think I just spit on my keyboard! [sm=biggrin.gif] zuma

Alumbrado -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 2:40:21 PM)
Good one....[:D] But as far as using 'Christian' for every single person connected with that belief system, and tarring them all with the same brush as Christian extremists, while claiming that any racist Pagans, or Buddhist cults or violent Muslims are not 'really' part of those religions, that seems like a bit of a double standard. Labelling is of limited use, and applying it to something as personal as personal beliefs about religion is about like expecting 'BDSM' or 'the lifestyle' to be some monolithic unifying dogma for everyone with a flogger.

WhipTheHip -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 3:31:18 PM)
Hi Zuma, > Well... I guess I've just thoroughly been insulted since I'm a Christian. I may criticize people's belief's but I don't insult them personally. Surely, you can oppose a person's views without insulting thempersonally. > I disagree with some of what you have stated. You certainly have that right. > "Christians say there is no right or wrong, there is only God's will. > "I've never heard any Christian that I know say that, nor have I ever > heard it preached. I certainly don't think, feel, or believe that way > myself. Therefore, I object. You don't have to take my word for it, you can ask any Christiantheologian. The average Christian is not all that familiar withChristian theology and dogma. I know what Christianity teachesbecause I spent many years studying it. >> "Religious folk are the nut cases that need to be locked away in mental institutions." > > You really should try to avoid blanket statements. That's a surefire way to be incorrect. You are right. But people rarely mean blanket statements literally. Blanket statements are usually just rhetorical speech, hyperbole, or deliberate exaggeration. When I speak, I sometimes take literary license to deliberately exaggerate for dramatic impact.This was just such a case. Of course, I don't really think religious folk are nut cases who need to locked away in mental institutions. I just said it because that is what they say about people who practice bdsm, and I was just trying to point out the same argument could be made against them. That is why we all came to America: for religious freedom and tolerance. With love,Michael

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