RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (Full Version)

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WhipTheHip -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 3:40:03 PM)

Hi Slipstream,
 
> I wasn't blasting your religion, now was I?
 
No, you didn't.  But I said I wouldn't mind if you did.
I don't know why you believe in Christianity since
they consider consider you a sinner, and would
have burned you at the stake if you had been born
three-hundred or more years ago. 
 
I would encourage you to adopt another religion--
one based on love, acceptance, understanding,
mutual caring, forgiveness, compassion,
empathy, altruism, helping people and animals
in need, and trying to make the world a better
place for all to live.   Why believe in an
out-dated 2000 year old religion that is so
hostile to you?
 
For you to be a Christian would be like a
Jew wanting to be a Nazi.

Love,
Michael
 
 

 



zumala -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 3:43:28 PM)

"I may criticize people's belief's but I don't insult them personally. 
Surely, you can oppose a person's views without insulting them
personally. "
 
It's more the way you state things, I think.  When you say 'Christians do this or that' or 'Christians say this or that' the wording is such that it includes all Christians.  That is what I was objecting to.
 
"Of course, I don't really think religious
folk are nut cases who need to locked away in mental institutions. 
I just said it because that is what they say about people who
practice bdsm, and I was just trying to point out the same
argument could be made against them.  That is why we all
came to America: for religious freedom and tolerance."
 
Your statement is again all-inclusive and not at all tolerant toward Christians, which is the opposite of what you're trying to claim you are.  You have stated that 'they' meaning Christians say that those who practice BDSM are nut cases who need to be locked away.  Clearly, since I am Christian and have not said those things, your statement is incorrect.
 
If you are shooting for tolerance and kindness as you state, you may want to re-think your use of words a little bit.  It's entirely possible that I am too particular, BUT your words are all I have to go by in a written forum such as this one.
 
Of course, being reminded that the same applies to me, I should specify that my tone is not an angry one.  I'm merely pointing something out.
 
zuma



WhipTheHip -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 4:31:37 PM)

Hi Zuma,
 
> It's more the way you state things, I think.  When you say
> 'Christians do this or that' or 'Christians say this or that'
> the wording is such that it includes all Christians.  That is
> what I was objecting to.
 
Have you ever made a statement about men, women,
Muslims, attorneys, doctors, liberals, conservatives,
vegetarians, Americans, blacks, Asians, Buddhists,
teachers, police, politicians, fundamentalists, Jehovah's
Witnesses, Mormons, Moonies, Chinese, auto
mechanics, repairmen, taxi drivers, football players,
or models?  Did you intend your statement to apply to
each and every member of that group?  If someone
doesn't say "all," they don't mean all, and if even
if they do say "all," they really mean "all."  The only
exception is Aristotilian Logic.  
 
> Your statement is again all-inclusive and not at
> all tolerant toward Christians,
 
My statement was not all inclusive.  I know
what I said, and I know what I meant.  

> You have stated that 'they' meaning Christians say
> that those who practice BDSM are nut cases who
> need to be locked away.  Clearly, since I am Christian
> and have not said those things, your statement is
> incorrect.

You might be correct if was talking in the language
of Aristotilian Logic, but I was communicating in
common American English.  If you interpret every
English statement literially, you will often
misuderstand people.  As I stated before, I was
using a manner of speaking or rhetorical speech.

I request you read my words again:

"Of course, I don't really think religious folk are nut
cases who need to locked away in mental institutions. 
I just said it because that is what they say about people who
practice bdsm, and I was just trying to point out the same
argument could be made against them.  That is why we all
came to America: for religious freedom and tolerance."

When I talk about Christians, I don't mean you
or any individual Christian.  I certainly don't
mean each and every Christian.  I mean
the average Christian who lived in the past, or
people who are recognized for expressing the
Christian point of view.
 
--Michael



Slipstreme -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 5:37:34 PM)

quote:

I don't know why you believe in Christianity since
they consider consider you a sinner, and would
have burned you at the stake if you had been born
three-hundred or more years ago


Because it is still my God. I just practice it in a different way.

quote:

   would encourage you to adopt another religion--
one based on love, acceptance, understanding,
mutual caring, forgiveness, compassion,
empathy, altruism, helping people and animals
in need, and trying to make the world a better
place for all to live.   Why believe in an
out-dated 2000 year old religion that is so
hostile to you?


You can still have all of that, and still believe in your God(s), which is why I will not give up my God. There is alot more to spirituality than religion.



WhipTheHip -> correction (8/16/2006 6:34:08 PM)

If someone  doesn't say "all," they rarely mean
"all," and even if they explicitly say "all," they rarely
really mean "all."  The only exception is Aristotilian
Logic.   
 



popeye1250 -> RE: correction (8/16/2006 6:36:33 PM)

And I say; "You can not petition the LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORD with prayer!"



WhipTheHip -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 6:38:38 PM)

Hi Slipstreme,
 
Why belive in any God?  Why do you say the
Christian God is your God?  Jesus never
claimed to be God.  Jesus never told his
follows to celebrate the Sabbath on
Sunday.  Why believe in a religion that has
caused so much human suffering, and still
tries to force people to accept their belief
system?
 
With loving-kindness, understanding, compassion,
and empathy always,
Michael



Slipstreme -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 8:49:44 PM)

Because I don't see the universe as being explained solely by science. Don't take this wrong, I do believe in evolution, but I also believe that there was a driving force behind it, not randomness, and that force to me is God. I feel close to God, almost as if I can feel his/her/its presense when I pray and such. So what if it isnt the same God I am "supposed" to be worshipping by Christian definition? I see God as a great energy source mainly, a concious source, but more an ephemeral being.

And simply, because it works for me. Who knows? I might change my religion when I find one that mirrors more of how I believe in God, but I won't stop believing.

Honestly, I don't like it when anyone is persecuted for their beliefs, no matter what they are.

But here is a reverse question for you. Why do you care whether or not someone believes in a "God", any god? It's their life, their choice.

My basic spirituality: I believe in my own version of what is supposed to be the Christian God, but have many Native beliefs as well, embrace multiple forms of spirituality and meditation, embrace witchcraft, see my experiences with sadomasochism as being somehow enlightening, (as such joining the church of body modification [not surprised my spirituality eeked itself into my S&M]) and fufilling beyond physical enjoyment, believe in spirts and an afterlife, of which I believe you will be able to do anything you want during that time, believe in animal souls and guides, psychic connections and such.

But seriously, why care whether or not someone has such beliefs? I don't care if everything I listed above could be proven to exist or not. It just doesn't matter to me, and I dont see why I should change my beliefs, because someone doesn't understand why. 



gentlethistle -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 9:45:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mons
i would never go to my pastor and say i am a domme but he knows of people who are like this and says nothing to them he is not the judge of my soup


I am strangely comforted by this...

For who among us would wish to be judged by our culinary lifestyle choices?

Let he who is without salt cast the first stock...

Laura



Alumbrado -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 10:09:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

My statement was not all inclusive.  I know
what I said, and I know what I meant.  

...When I talk about Christians, I don't mean you
or any individual Christian.  I certainly don't
mean each and every Christian.  I mean
the average Christian who lived in the past, or
people who are recognized for expressing the
Christian point of view.
 
--Michael




Except that in rejecting the 'they did it too' argument, you also reject the notion that any individual Christian can hold themselves apart from responsibility for the worst actions of their 'group and belief system'.
You infer that it is uniquely the factor of holding Christian beliefs that is causally linked to atrocities.
You also repeatedly use absolute labels such as 'never' (quite incorrectly BTW) to characterize the followers of Buddhism as being totally without any atrocities.

That isn't figurative, that is making a blanket and absolute label about the qualities of the members of a group. It is lumping together.

quote:

Sorry, I don't buy this defense.  Your Honor, so what my group and belief system is responsible for the turtore and murder of millions of people,
my group and belief system has not been the only group and belief system responsible for countless unspeakable atrocities. 
First, there has not been another group
of people or belief system in the history of mankind that has come close to doing the evil Christians have done.  Second, they are still trying to force their lifestyle on me and others.  
Third, they are primarily responsible for the
sexually repressed society we live in.   
Fourth, they are always minimizing their atrocities.  Fifth, there are many belief systems that do not cause
evil. 
I ask Christians to look at Buddhists and Bahaists. 
If you claim that all beliefs lead to the kind of evil Christianity has caused, I ask you why Buddahism and Bahaism never led to a single atrocity, let alone countless atrocities. 

> Taking pleasure in someone else's pain, controlling the populance > by terror and horror, or using religion as a reason to kill, maim,    
> torture, control and destroy are not new concepts to human
> behaviour. 

They are to Buddhists and Bahaists and the people's of many religions.
Maybe it is human nature for Christians to kill, maim, torture, control and destroy, but this has *****NEVER***** been seen once in Buddahism or Bahaism or many other religions that have been around for thousands
of years. 

> However, you seem to be saying it is the religion (in this case Christianity) 
> not human behaviour, that is at fault.

Exactly!!!



That is not non-Aristotelian logic, it is specious reasoning. 




juliaoceania -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 10:14:34 PM)

fast reply,

I would direct anyone that is tempted to lump all Christians together to visit this wonderful site. One can be a true Christian and be tolerant, kind to those who are different, and not believe in much of that the religious right foists on us. I do not call myself a Christian anymore because of the association with death and violence with the word, but I do find great meaning and great wisdom in what Jesus taught... For those who are prejudiced against Christianity.. I give you this link
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/



Slipstreme -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 10:31:20 PM)

I love that quote they have on the page from Ghandi.



WhipTheHip -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 10:33:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania  fast reply,I would direct anyone that is tempted to lump all Christians together to visit this wonderful site. One can be a true Christian and be tolerant, kind to those who are different, and not believe in much of that the religious right foists on us. I do not call myself a Christian anymore because of the association with death and violence with the word, but I do find great meaning and great wisdom in what Jesus taught... For those who are prejudiced against Christianity.. I give you this link  http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/  


Nobody lumps all Christians together.  The fact that there are liberal
Christians means nothing.  The truth is Christianity has very little to
do with Jesus.  Jesus never claimed to be God.  Jesus never said
the Sabbath should be worshipped on Sunday.  Jesus taught a lot
of God things, but the disciples of Jesus turned Christianity into
something else all together. 



WhipTheHip -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/16/2006 10:43:05 PM)

> Except that in rejecting the 'they did it too' argument,
> you also reject the notion that any individual Christian
> can hold themselves apart from responsibility for the
> worst actions of their 'group and belief system'.
 
I have no idea what you are talking about.  I made no
claim about individual Christians.
 
> You infer that it is uniquely the factor of holding Christian
> beliefs that i causally linked to atrocities.
 
I say belief in Christianity cause countless atrocities.
 
> You also repeatedly use absolute labels such as 'never' 
> (quite incorrectly BTW)
 
I don't know what you are refering to, but yes I use rhetorical
speech.  You can't always interepret English literially, and
expect to get the correct meaning of the speaker..
 
> to characterize the followers of Buddhism as being totally
> without any atrocities.
 
Yes, I would say that is true.  Do you wish to present a single
counter-example to prove me wrong?//
 
> That isn't figurative, that is making a blanket and absolute l
> abel about the qualities of the members of a group.
 
It sounds to me like you don't know what figurative speech means.
 
> It is lumping together. That is not non-Aristotelian logic, it is 
> specious reasoning. 
 
It is not lumping together.  It isnot Aristotelian logic.  It is not
speciious reasoning. 



zumala -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/17/2006 7:35:02 AM)

When dealing with a serious discussion on a written medium, it may be best to be literal rather than figurative.  That way there is less room for confusion.
 
zuma



Aine -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/17/2006 8:07:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gentlethistle

For who among us would wish to be judged by our culinary lifestyle choices?

Let he who is without salt cast the first stock...

Laura


I love you :D



WhipTheHip -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/17/2006 8:30:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zumala
When dealing with a serious discussion on a written medium, it may be best to be literal rather than figurative.  That way there is less room for confusion.
 zuma


Tell that to James Joyce or Thomas Paine.  Anyway, you could be right. 
This seems especially true for Internet communication, but it is hard for
me to change my writing style.  We all speak concisely.  If I had to be
literial, and always insert qualifiers and quantifiers my posts would be
twice as long, and not any clearer. 
 
The truth is communication is a two-way street.  If readers want
to understand what others are saying they need to give the
writer the benefit of the doubt and interpret their words in their
most favorable light.  You will find if you do this, you will have
much fewer misunderstandings.  But it is human nature to
quibble, nitpick, and take every statement literially, when they
disagree with a position.  When people want to find something
wrong with text, they can always do so.  When people do not
want to find something wrong with text, they can reconcile
any contradiction. 
 
When we read the bible, we are always having to interpret
words a certain way to avoid contradiction.  If we used half
as much effort trying to understand what others are saying,
we would do a lot better job. 



juliaoceania -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/17/2006 8:52:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania  fast reply,I would direct anyone that is tempted to lump all Christians together to visit this wonderful site. One can be a true Christian and be tolerant, kind to those who are different, and not believe in much of that the religious right foists on us. I do not call myself a Christian anymore because of the association with death and violence with the word, but I do find great meaning and great wisdom in what Jesus taught... For those who are prejudiced against Christianity.. I give you this link  http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/  


Nobody lumps all Christians together.  The fact that there are liberal
Christians means nothing.  The truth is Christianity has very little to
do with Jesus.  Jesus never claimed to be God.  Jesus never said
the Sabbath should be worshipped on Sunday.  Jesus taught a lot
of God things, but the disciples of Jesus turned Christianity into
something else all together. 


If you read a few pages on that site you would see that everything you just posted is addressed there. Since you did post all of this I must assume you addressed my post without glancing at the link, which is not a very tolerant or open minded gesture on your part, judging before reading. Just my thoughts



WhipTheHip -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/17/2006 9:03:28 AM)

Hi Slipstream,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slipstreme
Because I don't see the universe as being explained solely by science.


Actually, science does explain the universe quite well.  3,000 years ago
science could explain virtually nothing.  As time goes by science
exponentially explains more and more of the unverse.  Today, only
10% is left unexplained.  That is why they say God exists in the
gaps of our knowledge.  It seems as long as there is one thing we
don't know, people will attribute that one thing to God.

> I also believe that there was a driving force behind it, not randomness

You probably believe this because our universe does not seem random,
it seems remarkably ordered and exceptional.  There is a reason for
this.  It is called the anthropic principle and the law of large numbers.
Our universe contain every possible universe.  We find ourself in a
special ordered universe, because a universe that was less ordered
and less special would not have produced us. 

> and that force to me is God.

But why the Christian God?
 
> But here is a reverse question for you. Why do you
> care whether or not someone believes in a "God",
> any god?
 
Very good question.  I care because belief in different Gods
lead to wars.  Why do you think Wahhabi Muslims all over
the world want to kill us?   Over the span of a 1,000 year or
more Christians tortured and exterminated the peoples of
twenty or thirty belief systems, including fellow Christians. 
Generation after generation, they tortured and mudered my
ancestors.  Both Stalin and Hitler had Christian upbringings.
Christianity spawned many muderous crusades that
wiped out entire cities.  Christianity spawned four muderous
Inquistions that lasted over a thousand years, where people
were routinely slowly tortured out of their mnds, and slowly
burned at the stake. 
 
Christianity has a history of intolerance and sadism. 
Christianity is a highly repressive religion that views sex
as evil.  When human sexuality is repressed, humans
become more violent.  Humans who repress their
sexuality become self-rightous, judgmental, mean,
ornary, and cruel.
 
Even today Christians are trying to force their beleifs on
others.  They cause unwanted children to come into an
overpopulated world.  Christian beliefs lead to over-
population, unloved children, poverty, misery, devaluation
of human life, sexual repression and crime.  We have
more people in jail today than any other country in the
world thanks to Christians.
 
Christians today will take away your children.  They make
laws that oppose sexual freedom.  They are against gays. 
They burned "witches" till very recent times.  When a famous
atheist and her children were murdered, they didn't make
an effort to find those who murdered her and her children.
 
> But seriously, why care whether or not someone has such beliefs? 

Because I think it is important to follow the teachings of
Jesus and Buddah.  Christianity leads to human misery,
death and destruction.   

This is a free country, and you have the absolute right
to believe whatever you want, but for your sake, the
sake of your children, and the sake of your fellow man
I beg you to find a more tolerant religion.
 
With love,
Michael



popeye1250 -> RE: BIGGOTS AGAINST BDSM (8/17/2006 9:20:10 AM)

Too much Dogma in religion for me.
Too many different "Gods"
Who's to say which religion is "right" since they were all made by "man."



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